Society/Culture So what is so wrong with 'Nationalism'?

[Carringbush2010]

In the last two decades there's been 'noise' around this apparent evil called 'nationalism'.

In other threads I've skimmed over there seems to be some sort of fear of having pride in the nation you and your descendants were born in.

Why is that? What is this evil in having pride in your nation?

I'm fascinated by those who passionately oppose national pride and would like to know why these types are so averse to national pride, what is this poison to society that is caused by nationalism? Why is it so dangerous?

There are plenty on these boards that have immense pride (that I can gauge by some of the posts) in opposing nationalism.

I think it is more noise than an actual problem, but for those who are vehemently in opposition to having pride in your nation? What is the actual threat of nationalism?

This should make for an interesting debate, and will show us who has pride and who has a problem with it.

 

[Malifice]

Did you miss the Great War and WW2?

Both caused by rampant Nationalism.

Do you want ultra-nationalist Europe squabbling amongst itself, or an integrated and open Europe working together?

Nationalism is a precursor to war. Healthy patriotism is one thing. Nationalism is another thing entirely.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Did you miss the Great War and WW2?

Both caused by rampant Nationalism.

Do you want ultra-nationalist Europe squabbling amongst itself, or an integrated and open Europe working together?

Nationalism is a precursor to war. Healthy patriotism is one thing. Nationalism is another thing entirely.

Well that comes down to how one defines 'nationalism', for example I could argue, and it would be very difficult to argue against that patriotism and nationalism are one and the same.

So I guess I'll have to rephrase the question, What is so wrong with patriotism?

 

[Malifice]

So I guess I'll have to rephrase the question, What is so wrong with patriotism?

Nothing, as long as its healthy and doesn't lead to nativism and nationalism.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Nothing, as long as its healthy and doesn't lead to nativism and nationalism.

Ok, can you define the difference between patriotism and nationalism? How does patriotism lead to nationalism given you could argue they're one and the same?

What is so toxic about patrionationalism?

 

[Shane Heard]

Ok, can you define the difference between patriotism and nationalism? How does patriotism lead to nationalism given you could argue they're one and the same?

What is so toxic about patrionationalism?

Extreme nationalism leads to hateful discrimination against minorities including immigrants and refugees and a number of religious beliefs that are not part of the wider community.

Patriotic expression is a milder form where you are proud of your heritage and where you’re born but you aren’t bothered by different cultures living amongst your community.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Extreme nationalism leads to hateful discrimination against minorities including immigrants and refugees and a number of religious beliefs that are not part of the wider community.

Patriotic expression is a milder form where you are proud of your heritage and where you’re born but you aren’t bothered by different cultures living amongst your community.

Well this is interesting, notice how you used the word extreme. That implies extreme people with extreme views spruik extremities of their views. But that is of course obvious, extreme is extreme and water is wet.

This is the definition from a google search: I disagree with the definition because it could be construed that having pride in your nation is somehow the same or similar to holding racists / anti minority views.



This is the google search result for patriotism:



So I clicked on history:



So at some point, 'nationalism' has been hijacked to a derogatory term, yet patriotism is almost identical in definition to the ugly world threatening nationalism.

The only difference being ' especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations. ' Who and when was it decided that 'nationalism' has the intent to exclude to the detriment of other nations and other nations people?

So now we know that nationalism has been judged as bad, what is so wrong with patriotism?

 

[Shane Heard]

Well this is interesting, notice how you used the word extreme. That implies extreme people with extreme views spruik extremities of their views. But that is of course obvious, extreme is extreme and water is wet.

This is the definition from a google search: I disagree with the definition because it could be construed that having pride in your nation is somehow the same or similar to holding racists / anti minority views.

View attachment 986880

This is the google search result for patriotism:

View attachment 986881

So I clicked on history:

View attachment 986884

So at some point, 'nationalism' has been hijacked to a derogatory term, yet patriotism is almost identical in definition to the ugly world threatening nationalism.

The only difference being ' especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations. ' Who and when was it decided that 'nationalism' has the intent to exclude to the detriment of other nations and other nations people?

So now we know that nationalism has been judged as bad, what is so wrong with patriotism?

####ed if i know mate how you interpret it all.

There’s flying the Aussie flag on Australia day and cooking lamb chops singing Cold Chisel songs ..and there’s there’s a a bunch of imbeciles on Cronulla Beach wanting to bash the ##### out of every minority they can find wandering around minding their own business.

Where’s the middle?

#### knows.

 

[Carringbush2010]

####ed if i know mate how you interpret it all.

There’s flying the Aussie flag on Australia day and cooking lamb chops singing Cold Chisel songs ..and there’s there’s a a bunch of imbeciles on Cronulla Beach wanting to bash the ##### out of every minority they can find wandering around minding their own business.

Where’s the middle?

#### knows.

Well flying the Aussie flag is offensive to some and has been labeled as 'nationalism' like 'nationalism' is bad.

Moronic thugs bashing the sh1t out of innocent people is not and should not be labeled 'nationalism'.

'Nationalism' is not bad, it's exactly the same as patriotism - yet some ignorant simpletons believe that nationalism somehow implies the intent of people who have pride in their nation want to have pride at the expense and detriment of other nations and other nations people. Obviously that idea so far fetched it goes to show that lack of grey matter in sheeple who eat this sh1t up.

The same sort of people who dreamed up some derogatory term for patriotic pride 'nationalism'

 

[Shane Heard]

Well flying the Aussie flag is offensive to some and has been labeled as 'nationalism' like 'nationalism' is bad.

Moronic thugs bashing the sh1t out of innocent people is not and should not be labeled 'nationalism'.

'Nationalism' is not bad, it's exactly the same as patriotism - yet some ignorant simpletons believe that nationalism somehow implies the intent of people who have pride in their nation want to have pride at the expense and detriment of other nations and other nations people. Obviously that idea so far fetched it goes to show that lack of grey matter in sheeple who eat this sh1t up.

The same sort of people who dreamed up some derogatory term for patriotic pride 'nationalism'

i think you’re talking to yourself

work it out and move on to more important issues in life is my advice

 

[Carringbush2010]

i think you’re talking to yourself

work it out and move on to more important issues in life is my advice

Talking to myself. lol.

I do believe national pride being hijacked as derogatory by very small noisy minorities as offensive. Not trying to crusade for a dictionary change.

Just interested in what posters actually think is wrong with nationalism pride in nation.

 

[Malifice]

Ok, can you define the difference between patriotism and nationalism? How does patriotism lead to nationalism given you could argue they're one and the same?

What is so toxic about patrionationalism?

I've already explained what's toxic about nationalism. It leads to war. And nativism. And genocide.

Its also in stark contrast to liberalism, and im a liberal so there is that.

 

[Shane Heard]

Talking to myself. lol.

I do believe national pride being hijacked as derogatory by very small noisy minorities as offensive. Not trying to crusade for a dictionary change.

Just interested in what posters actually think is wrong with nationalism pride in nation.

all good mate...you’re probably an under 30 guy and it’s good you’re pondering these things

 

[CD Xbow]

Nationalism is OK in moderation, unfortunately it often becomes 'ultranationalism' which then becomes very icky. It is often exploited by leaders for malignant reasons eg start wars, vilify the 'other'.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I've already explained what's toxic about nationalism. It leads to war. And nativism. And genocide.

Its also in stark contrast to liberalism, and im a liberal so there is that.

That doesn't answer my question to you, what is the difference between nationalism and patriotism? And if you can define them differently what is so wrong with having pride in your nation?

What is it about having pride in your nation that somehow possesses people to got to war and commit genocide?

 

[Carringbush2010]

all good mate...you’re probably an under 30 guy and it’s good you’re pondering these things

Babow,

As a 7 yo I was heartbroken in the 77 replay - and have been a frustrated Pie fan ever since.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Nationalism is OK in moderation, unfortunately it often becomes 'ultranationalism' which then becomes very icky. It is often exploited by leaders for malignant reasons eg start wars, vilify the 'other'.

So going by that people are the problem not pride in ones nation.

It's like the kid with the mini bike that stacks and breaks his arm and mum says 'mini bikes are bad' when in fact it is a completely inanimate object unless controlled by the kid.

The kid is the problem and cause of the accident not the mini bike.

 

[Carringbush2010]

we’re exactly the same age ...

Hope that flag isn't offensive to anyone.

 

[Shane Heard]

So going by that people are the problem not pride in ones nation.

It's like the kid with the mini bike that stacks and breaks his arm and mum says 'mini bikes are bad' when in fact it is a completely inanimate object unless controlled by the kid.

The kid is the problem and cause of the accident not the mini bike.

mini bikes are a nightmare to control unless you’re on flat ground

 

[Shane Heard]

Hope that flag isn't offensive to anyone.

Australia mate. We’re the luckiest people on the planet.

Flags don’t define us.

 

[Carringbush2010]

mini bikes are a nightmare to control unless you’re on flat ground

Well that depends on your ability, some of those kids literally ride the wheels off em they're that good, over all sorts of terrain.

Point being the kid has complete control of what the inanimate object does.

EDIT: Furthermore pride in ones nation is not the cause of wars and ill doing - people are in control of what they do, not 'nationalism'

 

[CD Xbow]

So going by that people are the problem not pride in ones nation.

It's like the kid with the mini bike that stacks and breaks his arm and mum says 'mini bikes are bad' when in fact it is a completely inanimate object unless controlled by the kid.

The kid is the problem and cause of the accident not the mini bike.

Funny you should pick that example because when I was a teenager (many moons ago) I ran over my mother on my Yammy 80. My mother certainly was of the opinion that 'minbikes are bad'.

 

[Malifice]

That doesn't answer my question to you, what is the difference between nationalism and patriotism? And if you can define them differently what is so wrong with having pride in your nation?

What is it about having pride in your nation that somehow possesses people to got to war and commit genocide?

Patriotism is loving your country.

Nationalism is when it goes too far.

Nationalism is defined as 'identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations'. It also infers a collectivist approach (ie mandated by the governing polity) in opposition to liberalism and liberty.

Patriotism is a personal choice. Its not mandated by the State.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Funny you should pick that example because when I was a teenager (many moons ago) I ran over my mother on my Yammy 80. My mother certainly was of the opinion that 'minbikes are bad'.

Let me guess a YZ80?

Again, goes to prove my point, a YZ80 is a purpose built race machine, mum should've done her due diligence to check the 'mini bike' first. It's not the fault of the bike it's the fault of the operator.

It's not the fault of pride in ones nation, it's the fault of w***** who uses it for ill will.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Patriotism is loving your country.

Nationalism is when it goes too far.

Nationalism is defined as 'identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations'. It also infers a collectivist approach (ie mandated by the governing polity) in opposition to liberalism and liberty.

Patriotism is a personal choice. Its not mandated by the State.

Again, what is 'nationalism'? According to a google search it is:



I question that, A/ Seeing how patriotism is similar, how is patriotism ok? B/ When and who decided that patriotism nationalism is exclusive and detrimental?

Pride in ones nation is a choice yet nationalism which means exactly the same thing is poisonous and frowned upon.

There is certainly inconsistencies here, that cannot be disputed.