Unsolved Gerard Ross - Abducted Kent st Rockingham WA 1997

ms finch

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It sounds to me from what you posted previously that police believe one of the people involved in Gerard’s abduction and death was incredibly psychopathic. I agree that this doesn’t detract from the possibility that two were involved at the beginning. I also think that potentially the person/people who took Gerard may have been just bold and brazen, but the person he was handed off to was psychopathic. I’m constantly amazed at how brazen paedophiles rings are, and while every single person involved is despicable, I don’t think they are all psychopaths.
To add to this, the details of what happened to Gerard and how he was killed have been withheld. They talk about it being horrific and indicative of a special kind of psychopath. It is psychopathic enough to murder a child in cold blood, but they talk about another level on top of that. That suggests to me some level of torture while he was alive. I am sure I have read that he was beaten, and the other thing I can come up with is burned. Nothing else fits really with what they have said.

Someone who is considered that psychopathic will surely not have only killed one child, once, or have only been an under-the-radar child sex abuser? It just sounds prolific to me. And who have we ever heard about from WA like that. Could it be someone who is actually known interstate?
 
It sounds to me from what you posted previously that police believe one of the people involved in Gerard’s abduction and death was incredibly psychopathic. I agree that this doesn’t detract from the possibility that two were involved at the beginning. I also think that potentially the person/people who took Gerard may have been just bold and brazen, but the person he was handed off to was psychopathic. I’m constantly amazed at how brazen paedophiles rings are, and while every single person involved is despicable, I don’t think they are all psychopaths.

I'd be with the police on this, I don't think Gerard was passed on to anybody else and I think it was the man who abducted him that's responsible. To now, I'm not sure he was taken by paedophiles with the intent of sexual abuse.

It's possible imo, given what might be viewed as a self righteous attitude of the men seen pushing Gerard around, that he may have been mistaken for another kid they felt had wronged them? Something stolen out of their car or similar and they've gone for Gerard, not accepting his denials and it's gone too far.
 

ms finch

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I’ll just put a few known child killers out there:

Leslie Camilleri and Lindsay Beckett:
Responsible for the Bega Schoolgirl murders. These murders happened at the beginning of October (6 October) but the two weren’t apprehended until 25 October. They had been driving around NSW and Victoria in a stolen car. Could they have hotfooted it over to Perth after their Bega rampage? I’d like to see them ruled out. They had long histories of offences against children and were utterly sick in what they did to the girls.

Gregory Keith Davies:
Murdered Kylie Maybury (six!) on Melbourne Cup Day in 1984 but was not apprehended until 30 years later. Had other offences against children, I believe.

Garry Newman:
Murdered Carly Ryan after targeting her in a chat room. Apparently had a prolific history of targeting children in chat rooms. He would have been 40 when Gerard disappeared. Maybe not the right MO given he seemed to be the kind to take his time manipulating the children first. He even befriended Carly’s mother it seems.

Wanda Beach Murders:
I know these occurred some 30 years prior, but I seem to recall reading something that might have indicated the perpetrator was very young at the time (one of their suspects was young or something like that). Could he have gone on to kill other children?

I tell you what, Camilleri and Beckett look astonishingly appropriate for Gerard’s murder. They were potentially on a rampage at the very time it happened, worked together (so that’s two men), and used stolen vehicles. They weren’t in the least bit worried about being caught and were brazen. I can foresee a situation where after they murdered the two girls they left the state for a bit to avoid apprehension.

I have no idea if I am missing information on any of these people. I did a basic look at a few to see if anything could rule them out timing-wise, but may have missed things. They are just intended as a starting point.

Also, in my search I established that the reason they ruled out Brett Peter Cowan is because he was in custody in QLD at the time. He had been released from the NT on parole for another horrific child offence in mid 1997 and went to live with his aunt and uncle on the Sunshine Coast. He was subsequently apprehended for minor crimes he was doing in 1997 - stealing and breaking & entering.
 
One of the reasons why I think it's possible Gerard's abductor/s had targeted the wrong kid is because it only takes a few seconds for two grown men to push an 11yo into a car, yet the witness didn't see this. She saw one event of pushing/shoving, a pause, then she looked in the rear view mirror to see pushing and shoving again.

As if they were trying to get information? He can't give it to them because it wasn't him so it's 'yeah we'll see about that'.

I'm just riffing, I can't be sure of anything really.
 

ms finch

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One of the reasons why I think it's possible Gerard's abductor/s had targeted the wrong kid is because it only takes a few seconds for two grown men to push an 11yo into a car, yet the witness didn't see this. She saw one event of pushing/shoving, a pause, then she looked in the rear view mirror to see pushing and shoving again.

As if they were trying to get information? He can't give it to them because it wasn't him so it's 'yeah we'll see about that'.

I'm just riffing, I can't be sure of anything really.
It’s a good observation re the tussling. It is different to two seasoned paedophiles or child snatchers who would likely just bundle the kid into the car as quickly as possible. I’ll have to think on that some more.
 

ms finch

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I’ll just put a few known child killers out there:

Leslie Camilleri and Lindsay Beckett:
Responsible for the Bega Schoolgirl murders. These murders happened at the beginning of October (6 October) but the two weren’t apprehended until 25 October. They had been driving around NSW and Victoria in a stolen car. Could they have hotfooted it over to Perth after their Bega rampage? I’d like to see them ruled out. They had long histories of offences against children and were utterly sick in what they did to the girls.

Gregory Keith Davies:
Murdered Kylie Maybury (six!) on Melbourne Cup Day in 1984 but was not apprehended until 30 years later. Had other offences against children, I believe.

Garry Newman:
Murdered Carly Ryan after targeting her in a chat room. Apparently had a prolific history of targeting children in chat rooms. He would have been 40 when Gerard disappeared. Maybe not the right MO given he seemed to be the kind to take his time manipulating the children first. He even befriended Carly’s mother it seems.

Wanda Beach Murders:
I know these occurred some 30 years prior, but I seem to recall reading something that might have indicated the perpetrator was very young at the time (one of their suspects was young or something like that). Could he have gone on to kill other children?

I tell you what, Camilleri and Beckett look astonishingly appropriate for Gerard’s murder. They were potentially on a rampage at the very time it happened, worked together (so that’s two men), and used stolen vehicles. They weren’t in the least bit worried about being caught and were brazen. I can foresee a situation where after they murdered the two girls they left the state for a bit to avoid apprehension.

I have no idea if I am missing information on any of these people. I did a basic look at a few to see if anything could rule them out timing-wise, but may have missed things. They are just intended as a starting point.

Also, in my search I established that the reason they ruled out Brett Peter Cowan is because he was in custody in QLD at the time. He had been released from the NT on parole for another horrific child offence in mid 1997 and went to live with his aunt and uncle on the Sunshine Coast. He was subsequently apprehended for minor crimes he was doing in 1997 - stealing and breaking & entering.
Having looked at the Camilleri and Beckett appeal judgement, police detailed their movements in the days afterward because it was relevant to them being on a continued rampage and cleaning up after themselves (they cleaned and detailed the car). They were flitting between Sydney and Canberra. I can place them in Canberra on the 10th. Perhaps too late to go over to Perth for the 14th?
 
It’s a good observation re the tussling. It is different to two seasoned paedophiles or child snatchers who would likely just bundle the kid into the car as quickly as possible. I’ll have to think on that some more.

I've seen a similar situation before where someone pointed a finger at a kid who it turned out wasn't responsible for stealing something that was worth quite a lot of money. If not for an intervention, I'm not sure what might have happened to this kid.

It could be a situation like someone got in overnight and stole a heap of dope plants out one of the factories/warehouses nearby or even a house and a couple of kids around the same age as Gerard or who looked similar, had been seen poking around.

That might be all the excuse a psychopathic crim with a bent for extreme violence might need.
 

ms finch

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I've seen a similar situation before where someone pointed a finger at a kid who it turned out wasn't responsible for stealing something that was worth quite a lot of money. If not for an intervention, I'm not sure what might have happened to this kid.

It could be a situation like someone got in overnight and stole a heap of dope plants out one of the factories/warehouses nearby or even a house and a couple of kids around the same age as Gerard or who looked similar, had been seen poking around.

That might be all the excuse a psychopathic crim with a bent for extreme violence might need.
A lot of people involved in drug supply are psychopathic in their behaviour. I’m not talking, obviously, about the guy who sells pot to his mates or supplements his income with a bit of ice selling. I mean the people high up the food chain.
 
A lot of people involved in drug supply are psychopathic in their behaviour. I’m not talking, obviously, about the guy who sells pot to his mates or supplements his income with a bit of ice selling. I mean the people high up the food chain.

If you cost them money, the consequences can be dire.

I don't know what those two were doing in Kent Street Rockingham on a Tuesday at 9.30am. Criminal activity and hunting I suspect but maybe not on behalf of a paedophile who probably also should have been at work. As most boys Gerard's age would not have been strolling up the street on a school day.

There's another element in play here I think.
 

ms finch

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So I spent my evening going through Australia’s killers (adult and child) and child sex offenders, and what really struck me is that I struggled to link anyone in the list to the Gerard Ross murder. Obviously I did not have an exhaustive list but it was interesting to me that it could be someone relatively unknown. Given what the police said about the person being a worst of the worst type psychopath, I was expecting to see a couple of fits at least. How many of these types of people are floating around undetected?!

I know that, for example, Cowan was not pegged for Daniel Morcombe’s murder for many years. But he had a history that would have resulted in him appearing on any list if they were looking at people from that perspective.

Camilleri and Beckett are frankly perfect for it, but the timing is a problem. Not impossible, but I suspect if I dug further I would find that they were hanging around NSW the entire time prior to their arrest. They didn’t seem particularly fussed about being apprehended.

The perpetrator may be known for child sex offences but not prolific or famous enough to be on the list. That’s definitely one possibility.

However, if it was a known killer then Gerard was a real break in their pattern. With the known child killers, they were either inconsistent on pattern or locked up at the time (the couple of possibles due to timing I list in a previous post). There are a few awful individuals targeting strangers (as opposed to those who murdered family members or people close to them), such as Bradley Edwards, Francis Wark and Mark Dixie that probably need to be ruled out, but Gerard would be a change in their type of target.

It does make me wonder if this was something more personal and, as Shelley suggested, a case of mistaken identity because I don’t know why Gerard would have been targeted.
 
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There was another jncident where a man (singular) tried to lure a boy into his car from a bus stop just prior to Gerard's abduction. It wasn't reported until they heard about him being missing.
Its a detail I have listed in my own notes without a link. No idea where it came from or if its still info readily available to find. I haven't look for it since.
 

ms finch

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There was another jncident where a man (singular) tried to lure a boy into his car from a bus stop just prior to Gerard's abduction. It wasn't reported until they heard about him being missing.
Its a detail I have listed in my own notes without a link. No idea where it came from or if its still info readily available to find. I haven't look for it since.
I’ve read that many times so it is definitely reasonably widely published. Cream coloured sedan, I think. I will find a link and edit this post.

EDIT: Yep, in here: https://www.watoday.com.au/national...-gerard-ross-murder-case-20170117-gtsvgh.html

Investigators are also seeking to identify the driver of a beige or cream coloured sedan that approached a young boy waiting at a Kent Street bus stop near the Rockingham public library a few weeks before Gerard disappeared.

“We don't have a precise date but in August 1997 a male driver pulled over at the bus stop and asked the 11-year-old if he wanted a lift. When the boy declined the man drove away," Acting Inspector Munday said.

The vehicle and its driver have never been identified due to the vague description provided but we are still keen to speak to that person if only to eliminate him from the investigation.
 

ms finch

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I’ve read that many times so it is definitely reasonably widely published. Cream coloured sedan, I think. I will find a link and edit this post.

EDIT: Yep, in here: https://www.watoday.com.au/national...-gerard-ross-murder-case-20170117-gtsvgh.html
I really wish they would release this info at the time. I understand they like to keep details private to aid their apprehension of someone, but when they go a few months without anything I am not sure what purpose it serves to hang on to the information any more, especially when weighed against the possibility of leads or elimination.

This could be as simple as a friend of the kid’s parents offering a lift, but the kid doesn’t recognise them. Many years later, who remembers that? But a few months afterward that person might come forward and say, “Oh that was me. I live on the same street as Joe and thought he might like a lift.”
 
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I really wish they would release this info at the time. I understand they like to keep details private to aid their apprehension of someone, but when they go a few months without anything I am not sure what purpose it serves to hang on to the information any more, especially when weighed against the possibility of leads or elimination.

This could be as simple as a friend of the kid’s parents offering a lift, but the kid doesn’t recognise them. Many years later, who remembers that? But a few months afterward that person might come forward and say, “Oh that was me. I live on the same street as Joe and thought he might like a lift.”
Same, utterly shits me to tears. Stuff only the killer would know bullshit, operational wank. Its all so counter productive & thwarts fresh relevant information coming in when they most need it. I've said a million times it needs to change but I'm yet to see it & I'm at a complete loss to know why. All I see is an overly secretive police force who haven't yet learnt it doesn't help them whilst they spill the same BS rhetoric as to why they operate like that decade after decade, for bugger all result. Talk about flogging a dead horse.
 

ms finch

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Same, utterly shits me to tears. Stuff only the killer would know bullshit, operational wank. Its all so counter productive & thwarts fresh relevant information coming in when they most need it. I've said a million times it needs to change but I'm yet to see it & I'm at a complete loss to know why. All I see is an overly secretive police force who haven't yet learnt it doesn't help them whilst they spill the same BS rhetoric as to why they operate like that decade after decade, for bugger all result. Talk about flogging a dead horse.
Couldn’t agree more. It should be the exception rather than the rule. I understand keeping certain forensic stuff under wraps about the crime scenes or something specific such as a registration. But anything that could bring forward witnesses when they don’t have enough to pin it on a perpetrator seems to me to outweigh any risk of tipping off the perpetrator, especially when it is something vague such as a “beige coloured sedan”. There are people who, years on, wouldn’t even remember they drove a beige coloured sedan at one point!
 

ms finch

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I had to refresh my memory on the Peter Falconio murder today and I was reminded of the fact that Bradley Murdoch is from WA.

He spent most of his time in the northern area around Geraldton, Derby and Broome, but he had family in Perth and was known to spend time there. (Bizarrely I believe he was from and/or spent time in the same small town that Francis Wark lived. Small world.)

From November 1995 Murdoch spent 15 months in prison for shooting at people in the Kimberley. So he was released in time to have abducted and murdered Gerard.

Murdoch is a violent psychopath who by his own admission was a regular amphetamine user. He targeted men, women, kids. He was charged with the rape and abduction of a woman and her daughter but was acquitted when the evidence of the woman and her daughter fell over - some people claim it was a set up and it’s impossible to dismiss that possibility, but I don’t think that’s the case.

He often had business partners in his drug running ventures.

He is, in my view, 100% the kind of person who could have been up to no good, been seen by a kid, and think nothing of grabbing the kid to silence him then end up brutally killing him in a drug fueled rage/paranoia or just because he’s a violent psychopath.

The two men seen could have been him and someone he was involved with due to drug running or dealing, and then he simply did the rest on his own.

Whether or not it’s plausible that it’s Murdoch, I think the scenario itself is plausible with someone like that and does support the suggestions people have made that perhaps a better fit is someone other than a paedophile ring, especially someone involved with drugs. Murdoch is a perfect example of how vicious they can be.

I wonder if police have ruled him out. I would hope they have looked into it.
 
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I had to refresh my memory on the Peter Falconio murder today and I was reminded of the fact that Bradley Murdoch is from WA.

He spent most of his time in the northern area around Geraldton, Derby and Broome, but he had family in Perth and was known to spend time there. (Bizarrely I believe he was from and/or spent time in the same small town that Francis Wark lived. Small world.)

From November 1995 Murdoch spent 15 months in prison for shooting at people in the Kimberley. So he was released in time to have abducted and murdered Gerard.

Murdoch is a violent psychopath who by his own admission was a regular amphetamine user. He targeted men, women, kids. He was charged with the rape and abduction of a woman and her daughter but was acquitted when the evidence of the woman and her daughter fell over - some people claim it was a set up and it’s impossible to dismiss that possibility, but I don’t think that’s the case.

He often had business partners in his drug running ventures.

He is, in my view, 100% the kind of person who could have been up to no good, been seen by a kid, and think nothing of grabbing the kid to silence him then end up brutally killing him in a drug fueled rage/paranoia or just because he’s a violent psychopath.

The two men seen could have been him and someone he was involved with due to drug running or dealing, and then he simply did the rest on his own.

Whether or not it’s plausible that it’s Murdoch, I think the scenario itself is plausible with someone like that and does support the suggestions people have made that perhaps a better fit is someone other than a paedophile ring, especially someone involved with drugs. Murdoch is a perfect example of how vicious they can be.

I wonder if police have ruled him out. I would hope they have looked into it.

This article in 2005 on Murdoch is interesting, the police say here they were looking at him for unsolved murders in WA but had 'known about him for a while'. They must have ruled him out of involvement in CSK crimes but there are others.

If any of us think that maybe Peter and Joanne had become involved in drug trade as they travelled across Australia (I personally think they MIGHT have) and they crossed him or one of his business partners, that he was prepared to kill them for it then a scenario similar to what I proposed earlier might fit. It would be in his form.

And they did find red blonde hairs on Gerard. Murdoch has red blonde hair.

 
Police are reviewing the background of convicted killer Bradley John Murdoch for links to a string of unsolved murders and disappearances in Western Australia.
Murdoch, from Broome in WA's far north, was jailed this week in the Northern Territory for a minimum 28 years after being convicted of the murder of British tourist Peter Falconio and the assault on his girlfriend Joanne Lees.
WA Police said Murdoch's methodology and criminal profile were now being carefully scrutinised for possible links to several missing women across the state.
Details from the court case will be examined for extra information on Murdoch's whereabouts at the time of unsolved crimes or any links to disappearances which may have gone unrecorded, Sgt Graham Clifford said.
The cold cases being investigated include Perth's Claremont serial killings, the disappearance of teenager Hayley Dodd, 17, last seen in 1999 near Badgingarra north of Perth, and a Broome woman missing since 1996.

"Police have been aware of him (Murdoch) for a while," Sgt Clifford said.

 

ms finch

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I quite like Murdoch for this. He doesn’t necessarily have a sexual motive for his crimes. He just likes to kill people he doesn’t like.

I am not surprised they checked him out for Hayley Dodd. The town she went missing in - Badgingarra - Murdoch spent time in. Also anyone who was murdered in Broome, because that was one of his main stomping grounds for a long time. I think that related to Sara Lee Davey (probably Richard Dorrough) and Petronella Albert (probably Geoffrey Nicholls).

I am going back through the books I have on the Falconio case.

The incident in Fitzroy Crossing: Murdoch was sentenced to 21 months in jail (served 15) for shooting into a party of Aboriginal people who were celebrating their football team’s victory in the grand final. He was charged with firearms offences by lazy police who didn’t care.

In reality it was attempted murder, amongst other things. He was a white supremacist with a tattoo that reflected this. He lined up on one side of the embankment with two guns (a .22 and a .308) and shot directly into a car where two people were clearly sitting, one of whom was someone he had an issue with. The shots went through the headrests mms from their heads. He then proceeded to fire about 2 dozen shots into the panicked crowd. According to people who were there it was dumb luck nobody was hit. How is this any different to the psycho who shot up the Las Vegas festival from the hotel?!

He had visited a nearby backpackers earlier in the day and told “the white people” not to go to the party. They had tried to warn the organisers.

After he was arrested (basically only after the aboriginal community forced the police to do something), the police had to keep him in the women’s cells in Broome because his life was in danger from the aboriginal people incarcerated, and then they had to transfer him to Perth because they couldn’t keep him in any regional prisons. So he was released in Perth in about February 1997.

He did spend some time in Broome shortly after that where he had the s*** beaten out of him.

He didn’t need much of a motive to kill anyone. We know that from Peter Falconio. In Murdoch’s case (or someone like him) Gerard could have done something minor and he would have been brutally killed. Interesting that both Peter and Gerard were from the UK. Gerard’s family had spent time in the north of the state where Murdoch was known to frequent.

There were plenty of revolting people who were happy to support Murdoch in his nefarious activities and called him a “good bloke”. I really don’t see it as far fetched that someone could have been with him if he nabbed Gerard and gone along with that part of it.

Now it may not be Murdoch, but it sounds to me like this is the type of person it might be. (Thanks to everyone who suggested this type of thing rather than a paedophile - working through the stuff with Murdoch I really began to see it and it was prompted by what was said.)

I am just now checking the information on the rape and abduction matter.
 
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Great spot! Now that you say that: they also found dog hairs - Murdoch always had a dog.

Murdoch would have been 39 yo at the time, Rose said the two men were in their thirties with one possibly 40 ish. The dalmation he had under 4 years later when Falconio was murdered might have been around in 1997. The pictures of the dalmation I've seen didn't look like a young dog.
 
He didn’t need much of a motive to kill anyone. We know that from Peter Falconio. In Murdoch’s case (or someone like him) Gerard could have done something minor and he would have been brutally killed. Interesting that both Peter and Gerard were from the UK. Gerard’s family had spent time in the north of the state where Murdoch was known to frequent.

If Murdoch spent 15 months in prison for shooting at people in 1995, he would probably have still been on parole in October 1997? And couldn't leave the state so we can assume he was still in WA.

So if he got into any trouble then it would be a breach of his parole I'm thinking, any threat of that might send him right off.
 
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