So you ask me to find the video and not just tell you to google it . I find 1 for you and you dont even watch it . So closed minded .
Society/Culture Nobody has anything new to say about God.
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This video is nothing but pseudoscience. They've taken basic scientific principle of plate tectonics, including the causes of regional tsunamis, combined with the discredited pseudoscientific theory of hydroplate theory. It's quite a feeble attempt to interpret geology in terms which make it consistent with the flood myth.
If Noah’s Flood happened, we would expect all the animals of the world to be swept up together and deposited together. Fossil beds would have the jumbled bones of pre-Flood humans mixed with dinosaurs mixed with trilobites in one giant chaotic layer.
In reality what we see over and over again is quite different. Trilobite fossils are found in rocks without a trace of dinosaurs, and dinosaurs fossils are found in rocks without a trace of humans. And never, not even once, have trilobite fossils been found next to human bones, or next to dinosaur bones.
The so-called "Dinosaur Peninsula" mentioned in the video in the central part of the US, (supposedly high ground the dinosaurs fled to in the flood), was in fact a relatively low region - low enough to invite in the vast Western Interior Seaway, where food for dinosaurs would have been abundant at the edges.
Even the 10,000 dinosaurs with no young mentioned in the Youtube video is rubbish. In fact this video appears to rely very heavily on a February 2015 article by Tim Clare in Acts & Facts which is the journal of the Institute for Creation Research, an organization founded by Henry Morris, co-author of the 1961 classic creationist book The Genesis Flood. Clarey mentions a discovery by Jack Horner (an American paleontologist most famous for discovering and naming Maiasaura, which provided the first clear evidence that some dinosaurs cared for their young) where Horner supposedly said that there were "over 10,000 adult Maiasaura in a small area, and yet no young were mixed in with them." (clearly repeated in the video at the 13:13 mark). Clarey claims in his article:
Jack Horner actually said about the discovery that, "Baby maiasaurs, from hatching size of about 0.5 meters in length up to about 2 meters in length, are found in the nesting grounds where they were cared for by their parents."
So, there were young Maiasaura fossils in the area.
Those that support that there was a global flood often cite the sheer number of fossils in "fossil graveyards" as evidence for the Flood. Several in North America were mentioned. The Karroo Formation in Africa, which is estimated to contain the remains of 800 billion vertebrate animals seems to be a favourite of creationists.
Robert E. Sloan, an American paleontologist at the University of Minnesota, has studied the Karroo Formation extensively and found that the animals fossilized there range from the size of a small lizard to the size of a cow, with the average animal perhaps the size of a fox. If that was actually the case and the 800 billion animals in the Karroo Formation could be resurrected, there would be twenty-one of them for every acre of land on earth. Suppose we assume that the Karroo Formation contains 1 percent of the vertebrate fossils on earth there must have been at least 2,100 living animals per acre (American measurement), ranging from tiny shrews to immense dinosaurs that were wiped out by the Flood. This seems a bit excessive.
The rest of the so-called "evidence" in support of a global flood are desciptions of 'graveyards' that could easily be explained by large localised floods which of course as we know there is plenty of scientific evidence for.
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- #5,505
Find the video? Is this what you're basing your opinion on? A video that is poorly supported by robust scientiifc evidence and is produced by "Genesis Apologetics"
You're making the claim which goes against all scientific opinion. Give me a reputable scientist that has a peer reviewed paper on the historical accuracy of the Global Flood.
So you are dead set claiming that if Tectonic plates move and expose the earths core to the ocean moisture would not rise into the atmosphere and cause rain . ?
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- #5,507
Please. Tectonic plates move at a rate of three to five centimetres per year. Not enough to cause a global flood.
The vast majority of geologists regard the hypothesis of "catastrophic plate tectonics", as argued in the video as pseudoscience; they reject it in favor of the conventional geological theory of plate tectonics.
The lithosphere was at its most active 1.1 billion years ago, when all the continents collided into one huge supercontinent. Studies (most notably one from the Geological Survey of Western Australia) showed that tectonic activity increased from 3 billion years ago to a peak around 1.1 billion years ago, and then fell.
Not only does catastrophic plate tectonics lack any plausible geophysical mechanism by which its changes might occur, it also is contradicted by considerable geological evidence (which in turn is consistent with conventional plate tectonics), including:
- The fact that a number of volcanic oceanic island chains, such as the Hawaiian islands, yield evidence of the ocean floor having moved over volcanic hot-spots. These islands have widely ranging ages (determined via both radiometric dating and relative erosion) that contradict the catastrophic tectonic hypothesis of rapid development and thus a similar age.
- Radiometric dating and sedimentation rates on the ocean floor likewise contradict the hypothesis that it all came into existence nearly contemporaneously (as outlined in the video).
- Catastrophic tectonics does not allow sufficient time for guyots (which are seamounts that have built above sea level) to have their peak eroded away (leaving these seamounts' characteristic flat tops).
- Runaway subduction does not explain the kind of continental collision illustrated by that of the Indian and Eurasian Plates.
Geochronology which measures the age of rocks through a variety of techniques also indicates that the Earth as a whole is about 4.54 billion years old, and that the strata that, according to flood geology, were laid down during the Flood some 6,000 years ago, were actually deposited gradually over many millions of years.
In other words the whole theory as outlined in the video is absolute hogwash.
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The Temperature of the subducted plates are way cooler than the mantle
this indicates a massive recent event ie 4300 years or so . If these plates always moved slow ie 30 million years the subducted core would be the same temperature as the mantle .
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- #5,509
Rubbish. It indicates nothing of the sort. This is nothing more than "Runaway subduction" which is a hypothesis proposed by John Baumgardner via a paper that he presented at the 5th International Conference on Creationism in 2003 that has been absolutely discredited by reputable geologists. Wilfred Elders, of the University of California has successfully rebutted Baumgardner's work,
When asked how massive layers of granite produced in the CPT model could have sufficiently cooled off, given the failure of known mechanisms like hydrothermal circulation to explain such rapid cooling, Baumgardner admitted that he believes it would require direct miraculous intervention.
So unsupportable by reputable science. Needs God's intervention.
Please.
These blokes researched it actually :
Publishing in Nature Geoscience, Wei Mao and his co-author, Shijie Zhong,
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- #5,511
At no point have they claimed that this is best explained by the creationist theory of "runaway subduction".
As outlined in Chandler Burr's 1997 "The geophysics of God", John Baumgardner claimed that cold, heavy crust of the ocean floor would have sunk into the lighter, hotter mantle, releasing gravitational potential energy as heat. "Runaway subduction" posits that this process was greatly accelerated.
"As the plates deform the surrounding rock, the mechanical energy of deformation is converted into heat, creating a superheated 'envelope' of silicate around the sinking ocean floor. Silicate is very sensitive to heat, so it becomes weaker, allowing the plates to sink faster and heating the envelope still further, and so on, faster and faster. As the plates pull apart, the gap between them grows into a broadening seam in the planet. This sends a gigantic bubble of mantle shooting up through these ridges; [w]hich displaces the oceans in [w]hich creates a huge flood". God "caused an enormous blob of hot mantle material to come rushing up at incredible velocity through the underwater midocean ridges. The material ballooned, displacing a tidal wave of sea water over the continents. . . . Then, after 150 days (Genesis 7:24), the bubble retreated with equal speed into the Earth"
Baumgarder's theory still does not work without miracles, as Baumgardner himself has admitted. The thermal diffusivity of the earth would have to increase ten thousandfold to get the subduction rates proposed, and something would have to cause the advance and retreat of the magma bubble. Miracles would also have been necessary to cool the new ocean floor and to raise sedimentary mountains in months rather than in the millions of years it would ordinarily take.
The miraculously lowered viscosity would likely also lower frictional heating, removing the heat source that the model needs to accelerate the subduction.
Baumgardner estimated a release of 1028 joules from the subduction process. This is more than enough to boil off all the oceans. In addition, Baumgardner postulated that the mantle was much hotter before the Flood (giving it less viscosity); that heat would have to go somewhere, too. Baumgardner's own modeling (from his own invented Terra computer modelling program) showed that during the Flood, currents would be faster over continents than over ocean basins, so sediments should, on the whole, be removed from continents and deposited in ocean basins. Yet sediments on the ocean basin average 0.6 km thick, while on continents (including continental shelves), they average 2.6 km thick. Cenozoic sediments are post-Flood according to this model. Yet fossils from Cenozoic sediments alone show a sixty-five-million-year record of evolution, including a great deal of the diversification of mammals and angiosperms.
Simply "Runaway subduction" is little more than pseudoscience and is not supported by the available scientific evidence. As evidence of a recent 'global flood' it is virtually worthless. A global flood simply did not happen. Even the so-called "science" in support still needs a divine miracle or godly intervention for it to happen.
You do know many ancient civilisations have written about a global flood
Tectonic plates floating on lava and we live on these plates , flying through a hostile universe revolving around a hot ball of hydrogen etc on a tilted planet with a moon orbitting it in a sustainable environment . Guess we are just lucky eh!
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- #5,513
Not surprisingly many civilisations have written about floods. Many regions have experienced large localised floods casued by vey natural events such as tsunamis for example.
Several real "great floods" are thought to have occurred in prehistory, including the flooding of the Mediterranean basin, forming the Mediterranean sea, and the breaching of the Bosporus strait, which resulted in the Black Sea increasing to three times its original size and flooding several shoreline communities whose foundations can still be seen today. Megafloods associated with the breaking of ice dams as the last ice age was ending have also occurred and evidence from the North Sea shows that a massive tsunami around 8200 BC inundated the low lying areas known as 'Doggerland'.
In the 4th millennium BC, several ancient civilizations - notably Ancient Egypt and the Indus Valley - had existed, and continued to exist, without any sign of total extinction from a global flood. Egypt has a continuous written history going back to about 3100 BC, (plus archaeological evidence of continuous habitation going back to 9000 BC) and the only floods they talked about were the annual flood of the Nile River which irrigated their crops.
There is absolutely no evidence for a global flood wiping out most of humanity a few thousand years ago and covering the entire world so that there was absolutely no land whatsoever.
If so, the archaeological record of about 4-5,000 years ago would be replete with Pompeii-style ruins, the remains of thousands of towns, villages and cities, all wiped out by flood waters, simultaneously. Archaeology would show cultural development with a discontinuity as everything was wiped out and Noah's descendants had to restart. The near annihilation of the human race, if it happened, left no imprint on the archaeological record anywhere.
The global flood story requires that only eight people were left alive in 2349 BC. In 2000 BC, only 350 years after the flood, the population of the world was 27 million.To go from a population of eight to a population of 27 million in 350 years would require an average annual population growth rate of 4.4%, which is only slightly short of the highest birth rates in the world today. Birth rate and population growth aren't the same thing, and such a high birth rate implies reasons for people to have lots of children very young. The countries with the highest birth rates today have high rates of infectious disease and death, low life expectancy, and political instability, with a median age of 15 and a population growth rate well below the birth rate. This does not much resemble the society of superhumanly-long-lived fathers of nations claimed to have lived over that interval, but stable societies where children can be reliably expected to reach adulthood tend to have much lower birthrates.
An even more severe problem is that sexually reproducing species reduced to a population of eight individuals often experiences a catastrophic (and almost certainly extinguishing) genetic bottleneck; and the more rapid the re-expansion of this population, the more intense the inbreeding. Genetic studies have actually revealed the presence of a genetic bottleneck in human prehistory but that scenario is about 66,000 years too early and at least 2,000 people too populous for the Flood narrative.
Yep. Tectonic plate theory is well explained and well supported by scientific evidence
Plenty of observable evidence of other planets orbitting stars with their own satellites.
Is that it? Is that all you've got in reply? "Goddidit."
What has that got to do with the historicity of a global flood approximately 4-5,000 years ago? A claimed global flood incidentally for which there is absolutely no supporting evidence of having ever occurred.
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You do know what wiped off the surface of the earth means . In a global repetitious tsunami there would be no Pompei like ruins .
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- #5,515
There was no "global repetitious tsumamis". This is just made up by you.
Tsumanis have left and do leave ruins. Roughly 1,650 years ago, a massive tsunami (caused by an earthquake registering more than an eight on the Richter Scale) swept through the Mediterranean, leveling cities and killing thousands of people along the coast of the sea. In documenting the damage from this tsunami in 365 A.D., historian Ammien Marcellin wrote of how the African city of Neapolis (off the cost of Tunisia) was almost entirely wiped out by the massive wave. A group of Italian and Tunisian scientists started looking for the lost city to confirm the story in 2010 and they found it in 2017.
And I said in the 4th millennium BC, several ancient civilizations - notably Ancient Egypt and the Indus Valley - had existed, and continued to exist, without any sign of total extinction from a global flood. Egypt has a continuous written history going back to about 3100 BC, (plus archaeological evidence of continuous habitation going back to 9000 BC) and the only floods they ever talked about were the annual flood of the Nile River which irrigated their crops. There is no archaeological evidence of a disrupted civilisation which there would have been, had a global flood occured. Same with Japan on the other side of the planet.
Babylonian Flood story
Babylonian legend: The man and woman who survive a flood are granted immortality and become gods.
The Gilgamesh flood myth is a flood myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Many scholars believe that the flood myth was added to Tablet XI in the "standard version" of the Gilgamesh Epic by an editor who used the flood story from the Epic of Atrahasis.[1] A short reference to the flood myth is also present in the much older Sumerian Gilgamesh poems, from which the later Babylonian versions drew much of their inspiration and subject matter.
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- #5,517
Yes? And?
I've often mentioned previously that the Noah story is based on an older Mesopotamian / Sumerian story. What's your point?
I was gonna add the Greeks , The Hindu's the Central American stories of the flood . Just to mention a few more .
You talk about local floods . When was the last great local flood your ancestors talk about that became legend . I know Qld has had a few but no legends yet . No British ones in the last millenium .
But that really old one the hebrews recorded . You would be doing well to get better history records than the Jews .
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- #5,519
How exactly is this proof of an actual global flood?
As mentioned, the Egyptians had no tradition of a global flood. The first supposed "worldwide flood" in Greek mythology, the Ogygian deluge occurred during his supposed reign and derives its name from him, though some sources regard it as a local flood, such as an inundation of Lake Copais, a large lake once in the center of Boeotia. It's very likely that the later Deucalion flood myth Deucalion myth was inspired large tsunami in the Mediterranean Sea, caused by the Thera eruption (with an approximate geological date of 1630–1600 BC), is the myth's historical basis. Although the tsunami hit the South Aegean Sea and Crete, it did not affect cities in the mainland of Greece, such as Mycenae, Athens, and Thebes, which continued to prosper, indicating that it had a local rather than a regionwide effect. Some of the largest tsunamis in history, such as the one resulting from the Chicxulub impact, 66 million years ago, were thought to have affected roughly the entire Americas (or nearly all of the Western Hemisphere). But that was also far from a global flood.
The Hindus' flood story occurs 120 million years ago.
Indeed there's no reason to suggest any flood story from any civilisation is more than the story of a large localised/regional flood, such as the filling of the Persian Gulf after sea waters rose following the last glacial period. Global sea levels were about 120 metres lower around 16,000 BC and rose until 6,000 BC when they reached current levels, which are now an average 40 metres above the floor of the Gulf, which was a huge (800 km × 200 km) low-lying and fertile region in Mesopotamia. Human habitation is thought to have been strong around the Gulf Oasis for 100,000 years. A sudden increase in settlements above the present water level is recorded at around 5,500 BC. Then there's the Black Sea deluge, which suggests catastrophic deluge about 5600 BC from the Mediterranean Sea into the Black Sea.
To the ancients a large regional flood must have indeed seemed to cover all the known land.
The Hebrews recorded no such thing. The Jews took their story from the Sumerians at the time of the Babylonian exile.
Hey this is an answer to Snake Bakes penguin getting to the ark . The theory of Tectonic plates and Pangea was a possible solution . I dont have to prove to you about a global flood because you believe what you want . I am certain there was one because it is written . You claim The jews borrowed or learnt of a story from Babylon or Sumerians , thats your belief , the Babylonians Egyptians Sumerians didnt exist in 2500 BCE . Your dating methods are guessed . You believe some scratchers of dirt who make outlandish and bold claims . I believe the texts that have been copied and preserved definitely proved to be 3500 years old . Those texts suggest there was 1 language 8 people survived . The nations develloped later when languages were confused at Babel . Thats me and I see your grasping of straws to try and dispute it .
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- #5,521
It's fantasy. Completely unsupported by reputable scientific evidence.
You made the claim on here. And are yet to provide any evidence to support such any such event being historical.
Written by Jewish exiles in Babylon.
The available evidence certainly support that in the opinion of the vast majority of Biblical scholars - experts in the field of textual analysis of ancient texts such as Genesis.
The development of the story of Noah in Genesis goes something like this
2700 BC: Calculated time of the figure of Gilgamesh as per dating of walls of Uruk.
2100 BC: Apparent origin of the oldest Gilgamesh epic (Akkadian, AKA Old Babylonian). Alludes to the Flood, but does not specifically mention it.
Before Hammurabi (~1700 BC): Apparent time period of Atrahasis story, oldest Mesopotamian flood story
1830 BC: Oldest Estimated age of "CBM 13532" - also sometimes called the 'Nippur Flood Tablet'
1600 BC: Apparent origin of the known oldest copy of the Atrahasis story (but likely to have been assembled 1800 - 1700 BC)
1400 BC: Standard Babylonian version including all 12 tablets. Flood story complete as copy of Atrahasis.
1170 BC: Youngest Estimated age of "CBM 13532"
668-626 BC: King Assurbanipal of Assyria finds and stores the oldest preserved copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh in his library. Re-discovered in AD 1849
The approximate time of the writing / assembling of the Book of Genesis was between 600-300 BC in Babylonia.
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Complete garbage. The Sumerians were the people of southern Mesopotamia whose civilization flourished between c. 4100-1750 BC, while the ancient Egyptian civilization followed prehistoric Egypt and coalesced around 3100 BC
"My dating methods" are those agreed on by the majority of the experts working in various scientitifc fields - not just archaeology. You "believe' in what you do without any supporting evidence to suggest that your "belief" is actually true.
It's not me grasping at straws to try and make a believable story that there was actually a global flood when all the scientific evidence does not support any such event. All you've been able to present is discredited theories presented in youtube videos.
Once again.....
Geologists reject the notion of a global flood, because there is little to no geological evidence that such a flood occurred. Other experts in various scientific feidls have raised further problems. Why is there no evidence of a flood in tree ring dating? Tree ring records go back more than 10,000 years, with no evidence of a catastrophe during that time. Other scientists have raised the problems of various types of rocks such as chalk deposits, that could not possibly be where they are now, such as the cliffs of Dover - if a Global Flood had occurred 2-3,000 years ago. Molecular scientists studying DNA have disputed whether a Flood that destroyed all human life on earth except Noah, his wife, his three sons and his three daughters-in-law could have happened. Mankind may be all essentially related but DNA analysis shows that it is much further back than 2,348 BC, which is the date arrived at for the flood by the chronology/genealogy in the Book of Genesis.
Stratigraphy, Seriation, Chronological Marking, Dendrochronology, radiocarbon dating, geological dating, Potassium-Argon dating, Fission track dating, Obsidian Hydration dating, Thermoluminescence dating, Archaeo- and Paleo-magnetism dating, Oxidized Carbon Ratios are all archaeological methods used to date various historical and pre-historical events. The evidence that they provide, does NOT support the notion of ONE global flood.
Genetic data also shows no evidence of any human bottleneck as small as two people or eight people: there are simply too many different kinds of genes around for that to be true. There may have been a couple of “bottlenecks” (reduced population sizes) in the history of our species, but the smallest one not involving recent colonization is a bottleneck of roughly 10,000-15,000 individuals that occurred between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago. That number could get as low as 2,000 people, but that's the absolute minimum. That’s as small a population as our ancestors had, and—note—it’s not as low as eight individuals.
DNA studies have also confirmed that there are living today millions of descendants, of women believed to lived between 12,000 - 45,000 years ago. If the Flood was to have destroyed all men on earth apart from Noah and his family, how is this accounted for? If we add up the genealogies in the Bible, we have Noah's flood in about the year 2348 B.C. That's in the Fifth Egyptian Dynasty and the Yao Dynasty of China. There’s no record of a Universal Flood in those years, nor could there be, as everyone and everything would have been destroyed. This is clearly not the case. Clearly many of the earth's people are descended from people other than Noah and for them to exist today those ancestors must have survived the "Flood". Clearly the Bible states that all living things were destroyed except for those on the Ark, the humans consisting of the one family of eight people.
A global flood simply did not occur and you have absolutely no robust convincing evidence to support that it did.
You prove no dates . You put numbers next to words without proof .Radiation affects Chalk Charcoal Carbon . The atmosphere affects that . These form of dating are inaccurate . The closest scientific genuine thing you said was tree rings .
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- #5,523
Which dates? Give details. Be specific. Explain the dates that are incorrect and give the grounds by which you think they are incorrect. Say which ones and how.
Explain how you are right and the consensus of experts in their various historical, literary and scientific fields are incorrect. Because the dates I have provided are from what the experts have concluded from their study of the available evidence.
Like what? Give me examples.
.
How? Show how these prove a global flood.
How? Don't just make the claim. Explain how and why.
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