Unsolved The Family Murders

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Deni said:
Have you tried going to the 60 minutes YouTube subscription, it could be there, or on their Facebook page, maybe you could ask on there?
Click to expand...

I've searched 9now and also youtube, I can't find it anywhere, but I do remember seeing it on TV when i was younger. I'd be interested to see it again. No doubt channel 9 would have it in their archives.
 

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Just caught up with the thread after a few weeks away. Interesting stuff. Just a few thoughts/questions to add.

Alan Barnes

I agree with what others have said that all signs point to Darko setting up the kidnap on Grand Junction Rd. My main question is how was Darko so sure Alan would get in the right car? The way I've heard it, Alan and Darko left to hitchhike together before Darko changed his mind when they were on GJ Road and went back home. Now we don't know for sure how long Alan was thumbing a ride alone but it surely can't have been long. And this is the days long before mobile phones. If we're all correct about Darko being the set up guy, this was one sophisticated plan. They had to coordinate Darko and Alan arriving, Darko leaving and BvE and co rocking up pretty close to the exact minute. Once he left, Darko had no way to make sure Alan got in BvE's car so I can't imagine he left Alan alone for long. Every minute Alan's out there increases the chances that some helpful stranger stops and the whole gruesome business is avoided.

Neil Muir

The idea that someone spread a rumour Muir had been talking to police is a good one and goes a long way to explaining the apparent overkill in disposing of Muir's remains compared to other victims. But I'm wondering where that came from? When exactly did Mr B first go to police - before or after Muir's death? The CIA episode makes it sound like he went after Muir's murder but it would make more sense that he went after Alan's murder and then Neil got blamed.
But where does Neil enter the story? Frozen Lies had an interview with a family member that he got an antique ring just before he died that has never been recovered (probably from Mr R). So if we're right that Muir was set up as a scapegoat, where (or who more likely) did that rumour come from and how and why was Neil in a position to become the scapegoat?

Mark Langley & Peter Stogneff

I didn't know the connection between these two and BvE's brother being a teacher but I can't see that being much more than coincidence. ML was kidnapped after getting into a fight late at night with his brother(?) after a family gathering and stormed off. His brother circled and came back but he was gone. Seems much more likely BvE and his crew were trawling the streets looking for prey and Mark was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Same with PS. He skipped school to go to the mall with friends. BvE's brother might have made some passing comments about kids from his school always cutting class and going to the mall which gave BvE the idea but it would be virtually impossible for him to target Peter specifically. But does anyone know if there was a lot of publicity when Stogneff went missing? He was apparently mutilated similarly to Neil Muir but I'm wondering why? Muir we have a semi-plausible explanation as to why someone in the family would be pissed off enough to do such a thing but why do it to Stogneff as well? Was the case public enough to warrant mutilating him to try and prevent identification should he be found?

Richard Kelvin

I agree that the attention Richard Kelvin got cause of his dad meant he was marked from the moment it became clear to BvE and co they'd messed up big time by taking him.

A final general thought

With regard to The Family in general, I'm interested to hear what everyone thinks. In my time looking at this case, I've never got the impression that The Family were a murder group per se. Sex seems to be their primary MO and they were willing to kidnap, drug and rape to get it. There's plenty of victims who were attacked by The Family who were let go. Even that guy who was taken back to BvE's house and ran out the door when he realised he was being drugged was allowed to get away by BvE, despite getting a clear look at him.

The thing that seals the deal for me is that (where known) all the victims died in the same way - internal bleeding from having something inserted into their anus. Now this doesn't seem like something a person intent on murdering someone would do. There's dozens of easier methods that will kill someone quicker and with more certainty. The only time victims died seems to be when their messed up games went too far and caused serious injury.

But that leaves me with one pressing question. Neil Muir and Richard Kelvin were almost certainly pegged for death right away. So why was their cause of death still the same injury? Why would you not try something quicker if you knew they had to die?
 
SquiffyRae said:
Just caught up with the thread after a few weeks away. Interesting stuff. Just a few thoughts/questions to add.

Alan Barnes

I agree with what others have said that all signs point to Darko setting up the kidnap on Grand Junction Rd. My main question is how was Darko so sure Alan would get in the right car? The way I've heard it, Alan and Darko left to hitchhike together before Darko changed his mind when they were on GJ Road and went back home. Now we don't know for sure how long Alan was thumbing a ride alone but it surely can't have been long. And this is the days long before mobile phones. If we're all correct about Darko being the set up guy, this was one sophisticated plan. They had to coordinate Darko and Alan arriving, Darko leaving and BvE and co rocking up pretty close to the exact minute. Once he left, Darko had no way to make sure Alan got in BvE's car so I can't imagine he left Alan alone for long. Every minute Alan's out there increases the chances that some helpful stranger stops and the whole gruesome business is avoided.
Click to expand...
Debi Marshall says Darko was the guy who helped Gambardella procure David Szach for Derrance. There are reports AB was dabbling in heroin. We can't be confident about this given there's reports AB was gay and after some investigation it turns out it is more than unlikely he is gay (nor NM for that matter). But where did this heroin rumour come from? Was it the case that Darko was a user and AB was either unaware, or had started dabbling? Is this why Darko was a procurer? To feed a heroin habit?

It could have gone down like this;

BVE: If you send some pretty young things my way, I'll make it worth your while
DK: Can you get H?
BVE: I can get mandrax
DK: Not really my thing
BVE: I can give you cash so you can buy H with it. I'll give you $100, that'll get you a gram of H. You just introduce them to me.

some time later;

BVE: Found any boys for me?
DK: Got a mate. You'd like him.
BVE: Introduce me
DK: He'll know I set him up
BVE: Just call me when you're hitchhiking with him. I'll drive past, pick you guys up, pretend we don't know each other, offer you both a drink, you leave. Later you tell him you also had a sore arse.
DK: I'll see what I can do

some time later DK sees his opportunity. He goes to the phone box

DK: Bevo, i'm with my mate. We're heading out to Grand Junction Rd to hitch towards Salisbury. Come pick us up
BVE: I'll see you there....



It didn't have to be perfectly planned. Just a quick phone call. If AB and DK got picked up by someone else first, then they could just wait for the next opportunity. As per Charlie's theory, could have been intended to be another drug-rape but BVE realised AB recognised my from his work. Could have happened like that, could have been a variation of that, or could have been completely different.



** Question - did police check BVE's phone records and see if he had a call from DK's house or a nearby phone box on the day?
 
SquiffyRae said:
Just caught up with the thread after a few weeks away. Interesting stuff. Just a few thoughts/questions to add.


Neil Muir

The idea that someone spread a rumour Muir had been talking to police is a good one and goes a long way to explaining the apparent overkill in disposing of Muir's remains compared to other victims. But I'm wondering where that came from? When exactly did Mr B first go to police - before or after Muir's death? The CIA episode makes it sound like he went after Muir's murder but it would make more sense that he went after Alan's murder and then Neil got blamed.
But where does Neil enter the story? Frozen Lies had an interview with a family member that he got an antique ring just before he died that has never been recovered (probably from Mr R). So if we're right that Muir was set up as a scapegoat, where (or who more likely) did that rumour come from and how and why was Neil in a position to become the scapegoat?
Click to expand...
I have the impression Mr B went to police soon after AB (but I don't actually know when it was). I thought he went to police (may have been a phone call) and told them to look at BVE. They had sights on the BF of the girl who AB was accused of raping, so they ignored. At that stage it was a lead with no compelling evidence. I think it was much later on that he met with police either at a pub or in an interview room and told them he had been in BVE's car when he picked up AB.

I'd have to go check that, but short on time at the moment. Does anyone else have this info at hand?

My best guess with NM is;

AB was killed to avoid detection - BVE knew AB would recognise him. BVE may have considered dropping him off unharmed but his sexual urges got the better of him and he decided he would get rid off him after the rape. BVE showed pictures to DSD, SGW, and maybe another doctor in their group thinking AB was at the bottom of a reservoir. AB is discover and the cat is out of the bag. SGW, or whatever doctor it was says he wants in on the next one. Somehow the come across NM on the night he was at Millhouse's. The doctor involved performed some surgery that he learnt in med school.
 
SquiffyRae said:
A final general thought

With regard to The Family in general, I'm interested to hear what everyone thinks. In my time looking at this case, I've never got the impression that The Family were a murder group per se. Sex seems to be their primary MO and they were willing to kidnap, drug and rape to get it. There's plenty of victims who were attacked by The Family who were let go. Even that guy who was taken back to BvE's house and ran out the door when he realised he was being drugged was allowed to get away by BvE, despite getting a clear look at him.

The thing that seals the deal for me is that (where known) all the victims died in the same way - internal bleeding from having something inserted into their anus. Now this doesn't seem like something a person intent on murdering someone would do. There's dozens of easier methods that will kill someone quicker and with more certainty. The only time victims died seems to be when their messed up games went too far and caused serious injury.

But that leaves me with one pressing question. Neil Muir and Richard Kelvin were almost certainly pegged for death right away. So why was their cause of death still the same injury? Why would you not try something quicker if you knew they had to die?
Click to expand...

Like you, the motivation is sex rather than murder. Picking up a hitch hiker at night, drugging them, raping them and letting them go - they know what you look like, but they're often to embarrassed to report it, and then it's a "he said, he said" situation. "Drugs, rape?, what are you talking about? You were drunk and came onto me. We had consensual sex". But when they want to abduct a young man and hold him for days, or even weeks, it can only end one way.

So for me it's all about sex, and then cause and effect to avoid detection. If it's a pick up, drug, rape, three hour deal - drop them off. Take the chance they won't go to police and if they do, challenge it. But if it's a "I want to keep this one for a few days" type deal, they need to be murdered to conceal the crime.
 
SquiffyRae said:
But that leaves me with one pressing question. Neil Muir and Richard Kelvin were almost certainly pegged for death right away. So why was their cause of death still the same injury? Why would you not try something quicker if you knew they had to die?
Click to expand...
Most likely because the killing wasn't about killing. It was about the sex act. Mr B alleged he saw BVE inserting metal rods into drugged youth's anuses and using a torch to have a look around. This was one of his "things". How he came around to killing the victims like this is anyone's guess. In the end it may have been the easiest method for him, "I'm going to do it anyway, so may as well push a little bit more and cause an internal rupture".

Out of all the murders in history, not many murderers reason to themselves, "Gun? nah, too loud. Strangulation? nah, takes too long. Knife? nah, too bloody. Drowning? Nah, don't want to get wet. Bludgeon? Nah, don't want to get blood on my clothes. I know, I'll get a wine bottle and shove it so far up his ass, he'll split the lining of his anus and bleed out".
 
SquiffyRae said:
Just caught up with the thread after a few weeks away. Interesting stuff. Just a few thoughts/questions to add.

Alan Barnes

I agree with what others have said that all signs point to Darko setting up the kidnap on Grand Junction Rd. My main question is how was Darko so sure Alan would get in the right car? The way I've heard it, Alan and Darko left to hitchhike together before Darko changed his mind when they were on GJ Road and went back home. Now we don't know for sure how long Alan was thumbing a ride alone but it surely can't have been long. And this is the days long before mobile phones. If we're all correct about Darko being the set up guy, this was one sophisticated plan. They had to coordinate Darko and Alan arriving, Darko leaving and BvE and co rocking up pretty close to the exact minute. Once he left, Darko had no way to make sure Alan got in BvE's car so I can't imagine he left Alan alone for long. Every minute Alan's out there increases the chances that some helpful stranger stops and the whole gruesome business is avoided.

Neil Muir

The idea that someone spread a rumour Muir had been talking to police is a good one and goes a long way to explaining the apparent overkill in disposing of Muir's remains compared to other victims. But I'm wondering where that came from? When exactly did Mr B first go to police - before or after Muir's death? The CIA episode makes it sound like he went after Muir's murder but it would make more sense that he went after Alan's murder and then Neil got blamed.
But where does Neil enter the story? Frozen Lies had an interview with a family member that he got an antique ring just before he died that has never been recovered (probably from Mr R). So if we're right that Muir was set up as a scapegoat, where (or who more likely) did that rumour come from and how and why was Neil in a position to become the scapegoat?

Mark Langley & Peter Stogneff

I didn't know the connection between these two and BvE's brother being a teacher but I can't see that being much more than coincidence. ML was kidnapped after getting into a fight late at night with his brother(?) after a family gathering and stormed off. His brother circled and came back but he was gone. Seems much more likely BvE and his crew were trawling the streets looking for prey and Mark was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Same with PS. He skipped school to go to the mall with friends. BvE's brother might have made some passing comments about kids from his school always cutting class and going to the mall which gave BvE the idea but it would be virtually impossible for him to target Peter specifically. But does anyone know if there was a lot of publicity when Stogneff went missing? He was apparently mutilated similarly to Neil Muir but I'm wondering why? Muir we have a semi-plausible explanation as to why someone in the family would be pissed off enough to do such a thing but why do it to Stogneff as well? Was the case public enough to warrant mutilating him to try and prevent identification should he be found?

Richard Kelvin

I agree that the attention Richard Kelvin got cause of his dad meant he was marked from the moment it became clear to BvE and co they'd messed up big time by taking him.

A final general thought

With regard to The Family in general, I'm interested to hear what everyone thinks. In my time looking at this case, I've never got the impression that The Family were a murder group per se. Sex seems to be their primary MO and they were willing to kidnap, drug and rape to get it. There's plenty of victims who were attacked by The Family who were let go. Even that guy who was taken back to BvE's house and ran out the door when he realised he was being drugged was allowed to get away by BvE, despite getting a clear look at him.

The thing that seals the deal for me is that (where known) all the victims died in the same way - internal bleeding from having something inserted into their anus. Now this doesn't seem like something a person intent on murdering someone would do. There's dozens of easier methods that will kill someone quicker and with more certainty. The only time victims died seems to be when their messed up games went too far and caused serious injury.

But that leaves me with one pressing question. Neil Muir and Richard Kelvin were almost certainly pegged for death right away. So why was their cause of death still the same injury? Why would you not try something quicker if you knew they had to die?
Click to expand...

It was me who came up with NM , Darko had only just left Alan less then a minute before, everything you are saying here is what I said . Bsv looks exactly like his brother so PS would have gone up to him without question, same with ML he would have jumped in BSV car thinking that he was his brother. Mr B rang the cops on the Monday after Alan’s body was found.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
JezMez said:
Debi Marshall says Darko was the guy who helped Gambardella procure David Szach for Derrance. There are reports AB was dabbling in heroin. We can't be confident about this given there's reports AB was gay and after some investigation it turns out it is more than unlikely he is gay (nor NM for that matter). But where did this heroin rumour come from? Was it the case that Darko was a user and AB was either unaware, or had started dabbling? Is this why Darko was a procurer? To feed a heroin habit?

It could have gone down like this;

BVE: If you send some pretty young things my way, I'll make it worth your while
DK: Can you get H?
BVE: I can get mandrax
DK: Not really my thing
BVE: I can give you cash so you can buy H with it. I'll give you $100, that'll get you a gram of H. You just introduce them to me.

some time later;

BVE: Found any boys for me?
DK: Got a mate. You'd like him.
BVE: Introduce me
DK: He'll know I set him up
BVE: Just call me when you're hitchhiking with him. I'll drive past, pick you guys up, pretend we don't know each other, offer you both a drink, you leave. Later you tell him you also had a sore arse.
DK: I'll see what I can do

some time later DK sees his opportunity. He goes to the phone box

DK: Bevo, i'm with my mate. We're heading out to Grand Junction Rd to hitch towards Salisbury. Come pick us up
BVE: I'll see you there....



It didn't have to be perfectly planned. Just a quick phone call. If AB and DK got picked up by someone else first, then they could just wait for the next opportunity. As per Charlie's theory, could have been intended to be another drug-rape but BVE realised AB recognised my from his work. Could have happened like that, could have been a variation of that, or could have been completely different.



** Question - did police check BVE's phone records and see if he had a call from DK's house or a nearby phone box on the day?
Click to expand...

Alan never touched H ok . Alan would not have been anywhere close to H . The rumours came from clowns at parties trying to big note themselves. Alan was only 16 going on 17 and as I said before we are talking about 1979 not 2019 !!!! Debbie Marshal to me is a self centred egotistical clown. That’s why I kicked her out of my house when she ask me to go on tv .


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
John Barnes said:
Alan never touched H ok . Alan would not have been anywhere close to H . The rumours came from clowns at parties trying to big note themselves. Alan was only 16 going on 17 and as I said before we are talking about 1979 not 2019 !!!! Debbie Marshal to me is a self centred egotistical clown. That’s why I kicked her out of my house when she ask me to go on tv .


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
Do you think Darko was a user?
 

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John Barnes said:
It was me who came up with NM , Darko had only just left Alan less then a minute before, everything you are saying here is what I said . Bsv looks exactly like his brother so PS would have gone up to him without question, same with ML he would have jumped in BSV car thinking that he was his brother. Mr B rang the cops on the Monday after Alan’s body was found.
Click to expand...
Do you have a theory on the discrepancy in pick up locations and the day?


Darko: "We stayed at mine (Cheltenham) on the Saturday nigh, then on the Sunday my bro dropped me on Grand Junction Rd, then we started hitching towards Salisbury"

Witness: "I knew Alan. I was in my Dad's car driving along Grand Junction Rd and saw Alan hitch hiking. I then saw a white station wagon pull over. We had driven pas so I didn't see if ALan got in or not".

Mr B: "It was a Friday night. Bevo and I were driving along Main North Rd and pick up Alan. Bevo made a phone call to Mr R. We then drove to #1 beat and met Mr R. Bevo asked if I wanted to come and do "some surgery". I declined and headed up to a night club on North Tce.

--------------

The dates differ, the times of day differ, and the pick up location differ. By a lot.

My theory is this:

It was on a Sunday afternoon on Grand Junction Rd. When they met with Mr R, Mr B went with them. He witnessed them murder Alan. Mr B was't up for that and didn't expect it. He went to police as soon as Alan was found, out of self preservation. He changed the date, time of day, and location to fit in with an alibi. He didn't go to that club on the Friday and witnesses would verify it.
 
JezMez said:
** Question - did police check BVE's phone records and see if he had a call from DK's house or a nearby phone box on the day?
Click to expand...

It couldn't be done back then. The only specific regarding phone calls to and from was long distance, even then I think it only applied to billing.
 
Hendrix27 said:
I've searched 9now and also youtube, I can't find it anywhere, but I do remember seeing it on TV when i was younger. I'd be interested to see it again. No doubt channel 9 would have it in their archives.
Click to expand...
This Frozen Lies is a fairly new show, i'm not sure if it would have made it to their archives yet.
 
JezMez said:
Do you have a theory on the discrepancy in pick up locations and the day?


Darko: "We stayed at mine (Cheltenham) on the Saturday nigh, then on the Sunday my bro dropped me on Grand Junction Rd, then we started hitching towards Salisbury"

Witness: "I knew Alan. I was in my Dad's car driving along Grand Junction Rd and saw Alan hitch hiking. I then saw a white station wagon pull over. We had driven pas so I didn't see if ALan got in or not".

Mr B: "It was a Friday night. Bevo and I were driving along Main North Rd and pick up Alan. Bevo made a phone call to Mr R. We then drove to #1 beat and met Mr R. Bevo asked if I wanted to come and do "some surgery". I declined and headed up to a night club on North Tce.

--------------

The dates differ, the times of day differ, and the pick up location differ. By a lot.

My theory is this:

It was on a Sunday afternoon on Grand Junction Rd. When they met with Mr R, Mr B went with them. He witnessed them murder Alan. Mr B was't up for that and didn't expect it. He went to police as soon as Alan was found, out of self preservation. He changed the date, time of day, and location to fit in with an alibi. He didn't go to that club on the Friday and witnesses would verify it.
Click to expand...

Yes Mr B changed it to a Friday so her had a alibi and to keep himself out of the killing. He was there when it happened as he knew too much not to have been . Alan was taken on the Sunday afternoon


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
SquiffyRae said:
BvE's brother being a teacher
Click to expand...

This is the first time I've seen this referenced anywhere
He was a Technical Studies teacher at my school. He taught me for 3 years. Although he was quite a large gentleman he was always very kind and gentle.
It was a great shock to the school when the news of his brothers involvement came to light.
The students were informed that any boy using the situation as a way of teasing or paying out on him would be expelled
As far as I recall no one ever did.
 
carloss said:
Can you give us a hint?
Click to expand...
Im just referring to the C Mc hint provided a little while ago...I dont actually know whether he had a direct involvement in anything dubious or was just a part of the gay scene.

There was a post previously warning about providing clues, but for me, I personally thought of him more as a tv journo, as opposed to a radio one.

Havent seen him on tv for 10 years or so, not even sure if hes still alive.

Nothing at all comes up when googling him.

(Sorry, that wasnt really much of a clue!).
 
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