List Mgmt. Carlton's 2020 Draft Thread

[Arr0w]

Ive answered your questions move on agree to disagree .
Better still ring the club enlighten them the future prospects in winning the granny are stuffed if we dont add a couple of over 195cm giants .

You preaching backing the club in, seen it all

 

[zeeCFC]

Watched the U17 All Stars Game from the 2019 GF curtain raiser. Durdin captained Team Dal Santo and played alongside Carroll, in a retrospectively very lopsided team sheet. Team Brown dominated and for context of the match, no Dal Santo player really had any highlights. Following observations are from 2019, Durdin was 17 and Carroll still 16 and I feel much lighter/shorter than what he appears to be now.

Think Jimmae said Durdin doesn't have any physicality to his game, but that's not what I saw - goes when he needs to and was thrown into the midfield to provide a spark, be it running out of a contest or competing with vigour in the clinches. That being said, he rarely won it or had good enough options against the likes of Phillips, Hollands, Campbell etc on the opposition. McDonald, JUH and Thilthorp were also on the opposition.

Durdin tbh was amongst the top 3 players in a poor team Dal Santo. Quick, tidy skills, leadership and commitment with some good versatility. Doesn't have to goal sense or freakish ability of an Oli Henry, but was much more involved.

Carroll played midfield and barely touched it. May have been one of the earlier times he played inside mid but he got nowhere near it and fumbled in tight. On this one viewing from over a year ago, he wouldn't get anywhere near a centre stoppage in the 1s. Looked infinitely more comfortable when more outside with a bit more time, at which point his composure and vision showed a bit more. Didn't get much of it and looked small/skinny, hope he's grown since then.

Durdin should have kicked 3, his two misses were very tight and he was in the right place for them all, I can definitely see the appeal of his selection.

I see why Carroll slid. He must've had a good U18 year, he's still 17 right now and he's versatile - however from what was on display on the big stage you wouldn't take a second look.

 

[The Return of the Paf]

Watched the U17 All Stars Game from the 2019 GF curtain raiser. Durdin captained Team Dal Santo and played alongside Carroll, in a retrospectively very lopsided team sheet. Team Brown dominated and for context of the match, no Dal Santo player really had any highlights. Following observations are from 2019, Durdin was 17 and Carroll still 16 and I feel much lighter/shorter than what he appears to be now.

Think Jimmae said Durdin doesn't have any physicality to his game, but that's not what I saw - goes when he needs to and was thrown into the midfield to provide a spark, be it running out of a contest or competing with vigour in the clinches. That being said, he rarely won it or had good enough options against the likes of Phillips, Hollands, Campbell etc on the opposition. McDonald, JUH and Thilthorp were also on the opposition.

Durdin tbh was amongst the top 3 players in a poor team Dal Santo. Quick, tidy skills, leadership and commitment with some good versatility. Doesn't have to goal sense or freakish ability of an Oli Henry, but was much more involved.

Carroll played midfield and barely touched it. May have been one of the earlier times he played inside mid but he got nowhere near it and fumbled in tight. On this one viewing from over a year ago, he wouldn't get anywhere near a centre stoppage in the 1s. Looked infinitely more comfortable when more outside with a bit more time, at which point his composure and vision showed a bit more. Didn't get much of it and looked small/skinny, hope he's grown since then.

Durdin should have kicked 3, his two misses were very tight and he was in the right place for them all, I can definitely see the appeal of his selection.

I see why Carroll slid. He must've had a good U18 year, he's still 17 right now and he's versatile - however from what was on display on the big stage you wouldn't take a second look.

Thanks for making us brim with confidence, Zee; I was already somewhat sceptical.

 

[Cripptonite]

Happy with our haul considering the picks we had. Also added depth in areas of need.

In hindsight Tom Powell would have been nice but would have cost a lot to trade up for. Glad we kept our future picks basically in tact. I’m thinking we might need them for Oliver or Kelly next year.

Durdin- A specialist small forward playing in the SANFL seniors. Highly rated from juniors with great character, speed, goal nous and pressure. Jumped in before the Crows which started a streak of small forward selections with Rowe Spicer McCreerie and Brockman following. I feel Durdin could make an impact next year if required.

Carroll- Good midfield prospect. Best available by far. Seems to have good character and upside. Immediate midfield depth who could play a role if required. Hopefully turns into a good AFL player. I couldn’t split Carroll, Odriscoll, Poulter so glad we could get one without moving up.

Parks- Never heard of him until he was drafted. Looks a good type in an area of need. Can take a mark that’s for sure and has improved massively this year. Looks to have a large scope for improvement too. Highlights can be deceiving but from the write-ups and stats, I’d be more comfortable with him as KPD depth over Goddard or Macreadie.

One thing I liked is that we chose all interstate players who all played and excelled this year. They surely will have a much easier transition to AFL level compared to some of the Victorian speccy picks who missed their top-age year of development.

 

[tarczonandjane]

for the general feelings of “meh” that seem to be coming across about our draft performance, now might be the time to sit back and celebrate the 10-year anniversary of our 2010 draft haul. It was certainly jubilant times around here as we added Watson, McCarthy, Mitchell, and McInnes (the latter no doubt crueller by injury).

Assessing drafting in real-time is a pretty tough game. Let’s just see how this year pans out.

 

[HARKER]

Thanks for making us brim with confidence, Zee; I was already somewhat sceptical.

I watched Rozee live at Geelong in the Champs. He was terrible, couldn't get near the ball and even had a team-mate console him.

for the general feelings of “meh” that seem to be coming across about our draft performance, now might be the time to sit back and celebrate the 10-year anniversary of our 2010 draft haul. It was certainly jubilant times around here as we added Watson, McCarthy, Mitchell, and McInnes (the latter no doubt crueller by injury).

Assessing drafting in real-time is a pretty tough game. Let’s just see how this year pans out.

I recall that draft well.....sadly, too well.
Thought we had our KP posts nailed down for a decade.....didn't even see it in one game.
McCarthy was one of our worst selections ever....in hindsight.

 

[Christou2Kouta]

I watched Rozee live at Geelong in the Champs. He was terrible, couldn't get near the ball and even had a team-mate console him.



I recall that draft well.....sadly, too well.
Thought we had our KP posts nailed down for a decade.....didn't even see it in one game.
McCarthy was one of our worst selections ever....in hindsight.

The McCarthy experience made me sceptical of drafting skinny KPPs. He was never a chance of playing seniors in his first two years and then we delisted him. There was literally no point in drafting him.

It also makes me think that for KPPs, I’d rather them sit out of football for a year as they build their size/strength in the gym than keep playing and staying skinny and never being a chance to play seniors.

This is even more pertinent with reduced list sizes.

It will be interesting to see how * handle Cox and Reid.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[HARKER]

The McCarthy experience made me sceptical of drafting skinny KPPs. He was never a chance of playing seniors in his first two years and then we delisted him. There was literally no point in drafting him.

It also makes me think that for KPPs, I’d rather them sit out of football for a year as they build their size/strength in the gym than keep playing and staying skinny and never being a chance to play seniors.

This is even more pertinent with reduced list sizes.

It will be interesting to see how * handle Cox and Reid.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

I've highlighted McCarthy before, because even early on (at training) he just didn't express any competitiveness about him.
The fact he was seen as a possible future captain from within the club was bewildering to me.

You can't make it in this league without being competitive and upon my viewing of him, McCarthy was on the very low end of that scale.
Nothing to do with his body at all.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

for the general feelings of “meh” that seem to be coming across about our draft performance, now might be the time to sit back and celebrate the 10-year anniversary of our 2010 draft haul. It was certainly jubilant times around here as we added Watson, McCarthy, Mitchell, and McInnes (the latter no doubt crueller by injury).

Assessing drafting in real-time is a pretty tough game. Let’s just see how this year pans out.

Missing the success story ... Duigan. We promoted White, Ellard and Garlett off the rookie list too.

 

[Blue and Blue]

Two aspects to our drafting that have to be considered.

1. We were never getting another Walsh or Weitering but we basically drafted Saad with pick 8. Don't think anyone can really complain about that.
2. The experts rate our efforts highly.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Ahhh flashbacks to the Hughes era, fun times.

memory serves me right he started in 2009 and that draft year was just as bad. Except I think he jagged Sammy jacobs as a rookie.

 

[Doro]

Ahhh flashbacks to the Hughes era, fun times.

memory serves me right he started in 2009 and that draft year was just as bad. Except I think he jagged Sammy jacobs as a rookie.

I think Hughes took over from OSullivan in 2004.

 

[HARKER]

Not sure whether this is good or bad

Knightmares rating...it may have been posted already, but I'm not looking.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Where is the deflection? Have always stated you take best available in the draft, so I will back those selections in

But we didn't address all of out needs via the trade period, no matter what you prefer

There is a difference here, your opinion versus historical facts when it comes to talls and the correlation to flag winning sides

Can we buck the trend? Sure anything is possible, but I will stick with winning formulas

I don't think any list is ever perfectly balanced. You can say that Carlton didn't address all their needs - I can say that no club did. There are always a multitude of gaps on a list and it's about identifying which ones are most critical to the success of the club and then prioritising those.

Yep, if injuries hit our tall stocks then we may be forced to play a bit smaller than we'd like. But the senior KPP quality is there for a long time to come, we're not needing to forward plan to replace an aging group of talls, it's just a replacement for Jones in 2-4 years.

So the club presumably made a conscious decision to overlook KPF depth, additional ruck depth (beyond the 3 recognised options on our list) and KPD depth to improve our pace from the back line, speed and ball use through the midfield, and our dedicated small forward stocks. Those are all areas that our senior 22 was already struggling with.

We could have gone further with our list cuts and then traded some future picks out to bring in another couple of quality young talls. That would have impacted our draft hand next year though.

TLDR: every list has more "needs" than they can address in any given off-season, seems we just prioritised the exposed needs of our senior list rather than emergency-only or future needs which are less time critical.

 

[Coona Blues]

The McCarthy experience made me sceptical of drafting skinny KPPs. He was never a chance of playing seniors in his first two years and then we delisted him. There was literally no point in drafting him.

It also makes me think that for KPPs, I’d rather them sit out of football for a year as they build their size/strength in the gym than keep playing and staying skinny and never being a chance to play seniors.

This is even more pertinent with reduced list sizes.

It will be interesting to see how * handle Cox and Reid.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Each case is individual. Harry McKay

10

Harry Mckay

Age

27

Ht

200cm

Wt

106kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.9

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

2.4

2star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.4

5star

D

6.6

1star

K

4.6

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.4

2star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.8

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.4

4star

T

0.8

3star

G

2.0

5star

was a beanpole, goes alright.
Too many like to generalise on here. It really demands professional recruiting. Would have been a nightmare this year as more advanced physical assessment
would have been impossible, let alone interview processes.

 

[bigblueboy]

for the general feelings of “meh” that seem to be coming across about our draft performance, now might be the time to sit back and celebrate the 10-year anniversary of our 2010 draft haul. It was certainly jubilant times around here as we added Watson, McCarthy, Mitchell, and McInnes (the latter no doubt crueller by injury).

Assessing drafting in real-time is a pretty tough game. Let’s just see how this year pans out.

So much promise and anticipation ...

 

[bigblueboy]

I don't think any list is ever perfectly balanced. You can say that Carlton didn't address all their needs - I can say that no club did. There are always a multitude of gaps on a list and it's about identifying which ones are most critical to the success of the club and then prioritising those.

Yep, if injuries hit our tall stocks then we may be forced to play a bit smaller than we'd like. But the senior KPP quality is there for a long time to come, we're not needing to forward plan to replace an aging group of talls, it's just a replacement for Jones in 2-4 years.

So the club presumably made a conscious decision to overlook KPF depth, additional ruck depth (beyond the 3 recognised options on our list) and KPD depth to improve our pace from the back line, speed and ball use through the midfield, and our dedicated small forward stocks. Those are all areas that our senior 22 was already struggling with.

We could have gone further with our list cuts and then traded some future picks out to bring in another couple of quality young talls. That would have impacted our draft hand next year though.

TLDR: every list has more "needs" than they can address in any given off-season, seems we just prioritised the exposed needs of our senior list rather than emergency-only or future needs which are less time critical.

Even if we had kept pick 8, I'm not sure there was any guarantee on the KPP available making it. Look at what * did - those talls have potential but they are all high risk given the limited game time.

Hard to criticise drafting/trading given we have multiple needs and most of the guys cut were never going to make it.

My only query is I would have much preferred to keep Macreadie on the list as he is a real KPP size and we know he has some AFL-quality skills. Just couldn't keep him on the park.

 

[HARKER]

Where is the deflection? Have always stated you take best available in the draft, so I will back those selections in

But we didn't address all of out needs via the trade period, no matter what you prefer

There is a difference here, your opinion versus historical facts when it comes to talls and the correlation to flag winning sides

Can we buck the trend? Sure anything is possible, but I will stick with winning formulas

You can keep saying that as though it means something and be grounded with that view, but it's exactly not the way modern clubs do things.

Listened to a lot of list managers on SEN over the course of the trade and draft periods and when it came to this topic they had different views.
Listen to North list manager and Sydneys Beatson from earlier this week. You may be surprised how much they value 'needs'

I've always said theres no 'only one way' to list build and from what I heard from professionals.....they agree.
Don't worry about taking this into some lengthy 'I'll prove you wrong' rhetoric but just listen to the 'Professionals' It may just turn you

 

[Christou2Kouta]

Each case is individual. Harry McKay

10

Harry Mckay

Age

27

Ht

200cm

Wt

106kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.9

3star

K

7.5

3star

HB

2.4

2star

M

5.5

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

1.4

5star

D

6.6

1star

K

4.6

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.4

2star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.8

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.4

4star

T

0.8

3star

G

2.0

5star

was a beanpole, goes alright.
Too many like to generalise on here. It really demands professional recruiting. Would have been a nightmare this year as more advanced physical assessment
would have been impossible, let alone interview processes.

Harry did play in his first two seasons though. He is not the emaciated type I was referring to. He had athletic traits that made him a viable player from day one for his style of play. McCarthy didn't. Finbar didn't. They were never going to be ready within two years by following the same program as everyone else. They needed to prioritise getting their body ready, not battling away in the VFL wasting energy that could've been devoted to getting bigger/stronger, which was a necessary prerequisite for them to have a viable career.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Harry did play in his first two seasons though. He is not the emaciated type I was referring to. He had athletic traits that made him a viable player from day one for his style of play. McCarthy didn't. Finbar didn't. They were never going to be ready within two years by following the same program as everyone else. They needed to prioritise getting their body ready, not battling away in the VFL wasting energy that could've been devoted to getting bigger/stronger.

still gotta be conservative with the big fellas, can’t just bulk protein and smash out the gym, most are still growing which can lead to things like stress fractures.

 

[Metalcrusher]

You can keep saying that as though it means something and be grounded with that view, but it's exactly not the way modern clubs do things.

Listened to a lot of list managers on SEN over the course of the trade and draft periods and when it came to this topic they had different views.
Listen to North list manager and Sydneys Beatson from earlier this week. You may be surprised how much they value 'needs'

I've always said theres no 'only one way' to list build and from what I heard from professionals.....they agree.
Don't worry about taking this into some lengthy 'I'll prove you wrong' rhetoric but just listen to the 'Professionals' It may just turn you

if only you knew what Azza does for a living .... mighty presumptuous of you harks.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Thanks for making us brim with confidence, Zee; I was already somewhat sceptical.

Zee could have talked Carroll up as the next Pendlebury and even that would only have made you more sceptical...

 

[Arr0w]

You can keep saying that as though it means something and be grounded with that view, but it's exactly not the way modern clubs do things.

Listened to a lot of list managers on SEN over the course of the trade and draft periods and when it came to this topic they had different views.
Listen to North list manager and Sydneys Beatson from earlier this week. You may be surprised how much they value 'needs'

I've always said theres no 'only one way' to list build and from what I heard from professionals.....they agree.
Don't worry about taking this into some lengthy 'I'll prove you wrong' rhetoric but just listen to the 'Professionals' It may just turn you

Trade for needs, draft best available ( certainly within the 1st, 2nd rounds). Just like Carroll being a slider. Clubs can also manipulate this with trading after the trade period and during the draft

As for "professional", show me a recruiter that has a better than 2 in 3 picks strike rate and or picking the best player per position over their tenure, heads up, they don't exist

Until you or anyone disproves what I believe to be the case, happy to stay with how I see it, while you can continue to listen to others

 

[Christou2Kouta]

still gotta be conservative with the big fellas, can’t just bulk protein and smash out the gym, most are still growing which can lead to things like stress fractures.

I'd prefer to get them up to size first, then gradually increase their running loads, rather than getting their running up to speed and then trying to gradually add muscle. If they're not fit enough you can at least manage their game time so they're effective when they're on the field, rather than play longer minutes and be ineffective the whole time.

 

[zeeCFC]

Thanks for making us brim with confidence, Zee; I was already somewhat sceptical.

From what I've read, Carroll has improved in the areas I saw as a weakness.

Best clearance player in the WAFL colts and his contested work is spoken of highly. A lot can change in a year, Samo looked like a no.1 pick in his U17 game, as did O'Brien.

Hoping Carroll could turn into a Josh Dunkley

5

Josh Dunkley

Age

28

Ht

191cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.8

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.3

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

3.2

5star

D

20.7

5star

K

7.0

3star

HB

13.7

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

5.3

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

14.2

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

7.0

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

4.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

type.