1st Test Australia v India, Dec 17-21 at the Adelaide Oval

[Southerntakeover]

I also think that Cummins could have been one of those all time greats, but he's got Hazelwood and Starc nicking those 8'fors from him that he'd get in a weaker era, and ditto Hazelwood. Part of Warne and McGrath's success is that they both could collect a 5 for in a single innings if they were on; these blokes are lucky if the other bowlers leave them the scraps. I mean, you look at Stuart Clark's success, and for all that he was a very good bowler he'd not be getting a game ahead of any of these 3 quicks; he's essentially a slower version of Hazelwood. But he picked up heaps of wickets, because his career occurred when we didn't have the breadth of talent, and he was the man.

Oh come on. I know recency bias is a thing, but Cummins playing with Lyons, Starc and Hazelwood is hardly more competition for wickets than, say, McGrath competing with the likes of Warne, Gillespie, Lee, McGill etc

 

[James Colorado]

If I was to pick some solid Australian bowlers over the past few decades - not elite like McGrath or even McDermott - but good enough to hold a spot for 30+ tests

Guys like Merv Hughes, Geoff Lawson, Paul Reiffel - solid bowlers - but hardly "pack leaders" - all of them have better away records than Anderson.

I'd say his away record is very much sub standard.

He is a bowler who needs conditions in his favour or he is impotent. Genius bowlers can make things happen even when it's not favourable.

Now all cricketers will have a weak link - ie - they may struggle in one country or they have a batsman who has the wood over them.

Anderson averages well over 30 in most countries other than England.

The main exception being the "powerhouse" that is the West Indies.

What he has in his favour is longevity.

For a test series at an unknown venue - he wouldn't be in the top 50 bowlers of all time.

My original comment was quite off the cuff, and I was only really thinking of his number of wickets. Having actually looked at the stats, I can see why he's not highly rated away from home. Might have been different in another era, but that's not reality. Not sure why there's such a massive discrepancy, but it's clear as day. Very much looks like he needs favourable home conditions, and yes, like you said, longevity very much in his favour.

 

[Registered User]

Expert comments from Trent Copeland.
Why don’t 7 get Bootsma as a boundary rider as well.

Jobs for hacks.

Hee hee. I'm sure he's a good bloke, but how the fa'rk did Copeland get such a prominent gig? He must have top management. He just bored the crap out of me on 3aw for about 10 minutes

 

[Registered User]

One of the greatest players of all time is currently the worst expert commentator by a distance. Being good at cricket doesn't make you a good commentator.

Who dat?

 

[ROOTA#6]

Who dat?

SK Warne

 

[Gethelred]

Oh come on. I know recency bias is a thing, but Cummins playing with Lyons, Starc and Hazelwood is hardly more competition for wickets than, say, McGrath competing with the likes of Warne, Gillespie, Lee, McGill etc

I think it's funny you're looking at recency bias and apportioning what I said to that alone.

Below are the strike rates of Warne, Gillespie, Lee and McGill in Test Cricket.

Warne: 57.49
Gillespie: 54.96
Lee: 53.33
McGill: 54.02

Now, here are the strike rates of Lyon, Starc and Hazlewood.

Lyon: 63.16
Starc: 48.04
Hazlewood: 55.57

Cummins: 46.33, for comparison's sake, and McGrath: 51.95.

What this tells us is that the lowest strike rate among the new group is Hazlewood, and he's still striking at just over what Gillespie is at over his career. Lyon's the stock bowler, and his average fairs unfavorably against Warne and McGill, but he's also an offie in Australia. Starc strikes waaay more than each of the players you mention.

What this means is that the other bowlers - with the exception of Lyon - are striking more often than McGrath's contempories, ie that they're taking wickets off him, which is what I said.

Now, perhaps you can take your claim of recency bias, and shove it up your arse, hmm?

 

[DaRick]

RE Travis Head, I'm not fully convinced by him - there's a bit of the Shane Watson's about him, in that he usually finds a way to make a start, but he often doesn't fully capitalise. Plus his technique, while not yet being a serious hindrance, is less classical than Watson's and is probably less sustainable at this level.

That said, I do think he deserves the benefit of the doubt over Wade, if only because of recency bias.

I do have some sympathy for Wade, because he's been OK since his return, usually finds a way to grind out some runs, and has been thrust into a difficult situation, but realistically he's just clinging on to his spot.

 

[Perth bloke]

I think it's funny you're looking at recency bias and apportioning what I said to that alone.

Below are the strike rates of Warne, Gillespie, Lee and McGill in Test Cricket.

Warne: 57.49
Gillespie: 54.96
Lee: 53.33
McGill: 54.02

Now, here are the strike rates of Lyon, Starc and Hazlewood.

Lyon: 63.16
Starc: 48.04
Hazlewood: 55.57

Cummins: 46.33, for comparison's sake, and McGrath: 51.95.

What this tells us is that the lowest strike rate among the new group is Hazlewood, and he's still striking at just over what Gillespie is at over his career. Lyon's the stock bowler, and his average fairs unfavorably against Warne and McGill, but he's also an offie in Australia. Starc strikes waaay more than each of the players you mention.

What this means is that the other bowlers - with the exception of Lyon - are striking more often than McGrath's contempories, ie that they're taking wickets off him, which is what I said.

Now, perhaps you can take your claim of recency bias, and shove it up your arse, hmm?

This tells us two things, recency bias should only be used if the person saying it can back it up with facts. And secondly how good is Hazlewood ?omg those are insane statistics!!!

 

[Forward Press]

Maybe you can attribute it to tailenders or the rise of 20/20 style batting or other teams being s**t etc etc but any other nation would kill for a bowler with a strike rate of 48 - and yet some regularly question the selection of Mitchell Starc. It's also only 2 more than a consensus top line bowler in Pat Cummins.

 

[Pykie]

Maybe you can attribute it to tailenders or the rise of 20/20 style batting or other teams being sh*t etc etc but any other nation would kill for a bowler with a strike rate of 48 - and yet some regularly question the selection of Mitchell Starc. It's also only 2 more than a consensus top line bowler in Pat Cummins.

Maybe not SAF.

Steyns career SR is utterly ridiculous, as is Rabada’s.

They both played in the same team at one point.

 

[swanssince2002]

I think we can't forget that South Africa's team consisted of a pretty fearsome bowling attack in recent memory and Rabada is still elite. Ughhh memories of Hobart...

 

[PhatBoy]

Maybe you can attribute it to tailenders or the rise of 20/20 style batting or other teams being sh*t etc etc but any other nation would kill for a bowler with a strike rate of 48 - and yet some regularly question the selection of Mitchell Starc. It's also only 2 more than a consensus top line bowler in Pat Cummins.

I don’t query his selection at all and any team in the world over the past 10 years would find a spot for him bar the peak SA attack and even they would have had him in the rotation.

what I think hurts him is that, the Sri Lankan series aside where he was seriously incredible, like a James Anderson, or Vernon philander to an extent, he needs a few things in his favour to be at his best. And unlike those guys he can actually be a liability when it’s not working. Philander on a dead deck will at least keep his economy rate to 2 an over and play a role for the other guys and Anderson while not as frugal is also not just cannon fodder. Starc if it’s not working can be a serious weakness in the attack.

 

[PhatBoy]

I think we can't forget that South Africa's team consisted of a pretty fearsome bowling attack in recent memory and Rabada is still elite. Ughhh memories of Hobart...

The latter half of Donald’s career alongside pollock and then ntini feeding into steyn, Morkel, philander and then rabada. That’s nearly West Indian like in production line terms

 

[Gethelred]

I don’t query his selection at all and any team in the world over the past 10 years would find a spot for him bar the peak SA attack and even they would have had him in the rotation.

what I think hurts him is that, the Sri Lankan series aside where he was seriously incredible, like a James Anderson, or Vernon philander to an extent, he needs a few things in his favour to be at his best. And unlike those guys he can actually be a liability when it’s not working. Philander on a dead deck will at least keep his economy rate to 2 an over and play a role for the other guys and Anderson while not as frugal is also not just cannon fodder. Starc if it’s not working can be a serious weakness in the attack.

Bear in mind, Anderson has gotten better every single year he's played the game. He's always been excellent to god tier in swinging conditions, but it's only really been the last 3-5 years he's been better than average in unfavorable/neutral conditions.

Anderson's 38. Starc's almost 32. While I can't see Starc playing and bowling 150km/h all the way through to 38, I can certainly see him getting more accurate as his pace starts to drop off.

 

[RookiePick]

The latter half of Donald’s career alongside pollock and then ntini feeding into steyn, Morkel, philander and then rabada. That’s nearly West Indian like in production line terms

Donald was a complete beast. The most intimidating quick I've seen in the flesh. Ambrose might have killed you but it was likely an accident if your name wasn't S. Waugh.

Donald bowled like the batsman's existence was a personal affront.

 

[RohitSharma]

I think we can't forget that South Africa's team consisted of a pretty fearsome bowling attack in recent memory and Rabada is still elite. Ughhh memories of Hobart...

South African bowlers give it their all that's why Englishmen and Kiwis steal saffers to have a decent side. Without Wagner Aussies would have score 1000 runs, Southee and Boult were toothless down under. England without KP, wouldn't have produced quality real Englishmen. Only Kiwi great is Ben Stokes

 

[Forward Press]

Maybe not SAF.

Steyns career SR is utterly ridiculous, as is Rabada’s.

They both played in the same team at one point.

Oh for sure, Steyn/Rabada/Philander was the stuff of batters' nightmares, but at this point in time Starc would comfortably find a place in all Test nations' lineups. I don't know why he is still a whipping boy.

 

[Pykie]

The latter half of Donald’s career alongside pollock and then ntini feeding into steyn, Morkel, philander and then rabada. That’s nearly West Indian like in production line terms

McGrath, Gillespie, Lee, into Harris, Johnson into Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins probably go's alright.....

 

[Perth bloke]

South African bowlers give it their all that's why Englishmen and Kiwis steal saffers to have a decent side. Without Wagner Aussies would have score 1000 runs, Southee and Boult were toothless down under. England without KP, wouldn't have produced quality real Englishmen. Only Kiwi great is Ben Stokes

You could probably argue that Sir Richard was at least half decent eh Rohit? Have you trained hard today? Or still eating butter chicken and naan bread ?

 

[Perth bloke]

You get the sense that the media cycle of whipping boy is over for starc. Seems to be burns at the moment and Glenn Maxwell whenever he fails

 

[Pippen94]

When learns to not smack everything on a 6th stump line to ******* backward point he will average 60+ for years

Until then he will average in the mid 30s with a few decent scores

That's better average than wade in 33 tests

 

[philreich]

You get the sense that the media cycle of whipping boy is over for starc. Seems to be burns at the moment and Glenn Maxwell whenever he fails

I question why there needs to be a whipping boy. If we're true Aussie fans, we back every member of the 11 to do well, and stick it up the opposition!!!!!

 

[Perth bloke]

I question why there needs to be a whipping boy. If we're true Aussie fans, we back every member of the 11 to do well, and stick it up the opposition!!!!!

Tell Murdoch that. For some reason divide and conquer seems to be the narrative forced upon us. We always have to hate someone apparently

 

[philreich]

Tell Murdoch that. For some reason divide and conquer seems to be the narrative forced upon us. We always have to hate someone apparently

Well call me a rebel - I refuse to hate anybody wearing a baggy green.

 

[Perth bloke]

Well call me a rebel - I refuse to hate anybody wearing a baggy green.

Yea I'm agreeing with you. I was talking in rhetorical terms. I think the media do it to sell papers because hate sells and friendliness doesn't