What I find interesting in this thread is that people a referring to home and away season alot.In any sport the big name players and the stars stand up in big games and final series and prove there greatness and why there on the big $$$.
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No - I stand by the fact he played great footy early years at GC.Let's be honest he had no one to take votes of him at the Sun's fullstop.You said great footy , but no way near the level at the cats.
No - I stand by the fact he played great footy early years at GC.
He won brownlow when his club finished 14th for heavens sake.
Well then yes he was no longer the elite player from 2015 approx following the shoulder injury.Each to there own and entitled to your opinion, but after that what happened.
This might be the worst take in this thread and that is really saying something.Let's be honest he had no one to take votes of him at the Sun's fullstop.You said great footy , but no way near the level at the cats.
Surely he does have some regret. The money was very attractive but in hindsight he’d have to recognise the basket case that were (still are?) the Suns in his years there. He’ll have very few post-retirement sponsorship and promotional earnings coming in from his GCS days, and his post-retirement earnings from the Geelong region are possibly diminished because of that time spent up north.His first 3 years at the Suns he played grear football - all Australian x3 and won his second brownlow in 2013
I wonder if he will look back on his move to Suns with regret. While he would have got the coin to set himself up, it was sad seeing a footballer in his elite prime wasting it away at a bottom 4 club
This might be the worst take in this thread and that is really saying something.
Claiming Ablett wasn't elite at the Suns is not an controversial opinion it is a flat out wrong opinion.
You are right they are probably 'down years' by his standards.I did say he played some good footy , but your claiming he was elite at the Sun's the whole time your dreaming. Under Eade he looked disinterested and checked out at times and that his a known fact.
You are right they are probably 'down years' by his standards.
In those years Eade was with the Suns he averaged
2015: 22 disposals, 1.6 goals, 6 clearances
2016: 27 disposals, 0.7 goals, 7 clearances
2017: 33 disposals, 0.5 goals, 7 clearances
He was still playing elite footy and claiming he just played some good footy is just so far from what he produced it is not funny.
Sure no one is arguing he was no longer at his best but those numbers stack up to the best of almost everyone else career. He may have come back to the pack but he was still great.Ablett played extraordinary and peerless footy from 2007-mid 2014. He was never the same player after his shoulder injury.
His stats might have been impressive, but the eye test can tell you he had lost some passion for the brutal contest. He was still very good, but was no longer a cut above the rest.
But his 7.5 years from 2007-mid 2014 was unrivaled in consistent quality.
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Sure no one is arguing he was no longer at his best but those numbers stack up to the best of almost everyone else career. He may have come back to the pack but he was still great.
Claiming he was not still playing elite footy in those 3 years when on the park is silly.
Because using Home and Away and Finals matches is how we do in in AustraliaWhat I find interesting in this thread is that people a referring to home and away season alot.In any sport the big name players and the stars stand up in big games and final series and prove there greatness and why there on the big $$$.
It’s not “an American argument that has creeped in lately”. It’s a reflection of the time,money, effort and emotion invested in and by clubs, players, fans, media, sponsors and a whole bunch of others.Because using Home and Away and Finals matches is how we do in in Australia
Using only "Finals" and "Big Games" is an American argument that has creeped in lately and most big games here are just marketed games played mostly by average sides with big followings.
Bob Skilton played only 1 final yet he is probably a top 5 midfielder to ever play Australian Rules football and a man who would walk into every clubs best 22 of all time, Is bob any less of a Matchwinner or a gun player?
The most useful measures are AA's and AFLCA.
On AA's, he has 4.
On AFLCA, if anyone has historical vote data let me know, but over the last 4 years (from their website). Dusty has gone:
2017- Won a tight finish over Danger
2018- 8th
2019- Outside top 10
2020- Outside top 10
Danger has more votes over 2017-2020 than Dusty. And obviously would've had a lot more pre 2017 than Dusty. (Overall I put Dusty ahead of Danger, but I'm just pointing out here that in H&A Danger's ahead).
Dusty's a clutch performer. One of the greatest clutch performers ever. But his week-to-week contributions over his 11 seasons simply don't justify putting him into the rarified discussion of VFL/AFL GOAT.
Dusty's a very good player who elevates himself in big games. But he hasn't been consistently elite through season after season over a long period. And shouldn't be compared with those who have. Matthews, Ablett Jr being two examples.
On what measure have you deduced Martin has not been consistently elite... ? It’s simply not supported by any respected measurement of elite performance.
- Over the last 5-years, Danger and Dusty are the only players to finish top-20 in the coach’s votes every single season. Dusty is a second in total votes and miles ahead of 3rd. So the coach’s rate him the second best H&A performer in the entire comp over the last 5-years.
- In the last 5-years he has won 2 x B&F, finished 2nd twice and a 6th.
- He has the second most Brownlow votes behind Danger. He polls in the second most games behind Fyfe. So umpires rate him consistently elite.
- He has 4 x AA’s and was in the 40-man squad the other time. So independent ex-players rate him consistently elite.
So unless you are using some other measurement for being consistently elite, I think there’s genuinely only 1 x player you could rate over the last 5-years as being superior to Dusty in H&A and that’s Danger.
And Dusty’s football from 2010-15 was excellent also, but I’m happy to accept not elite.
But on every single available measurement of H&A performance, Dusty has been absolutely elite for 5-years now, arguable second only to Danger.
You got anyone else above him in the last 5-years... and if so anything to actually back-up your ‘opinion’ with facts and data.
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So if you're arguing the 5 best years of dusty are in fact bettered by another player over the same time period then he's not the ******* greatest of the past 5 years let alone all time then is he.
******* imbeciles.
Noidnadroj suggested only Ablett and "very few others" would be ahead of Dusty in H&A.
Here's players who would be ahead of Dusty in H&A. Restricted to AFL era midfielders. Obviously the list would be much longer if you include forwards and backs.
Not a complete list, just a quick list I've put together. There might be others.
Buckley
Hird
Voss
Harvey
Ricciuto
McLeod
Judd
Cousins
Ablett Jr
Selwood
Swan
Pendlebury
Dangerfield
Since Ablett left the cats back then to join the suns he hasn't been elite injuries haven't helped without a doubt , but he was so far off on his cats days big-time.
What I find interesting in this thread is that people a referring to home and away season alot.In any sport the big name players and the stars stand up in big games and final series and prove there greatness and why there on the big $$$.
Who would be his challengers for that title at Richmond?Interesting debate, probably never have an answer considering there is no consensus on GOAT previously, is it Matthews, Ablett Snr, Carey? The list and debate can go on and on.
What most can probably agree on is that Dusty produced the greatest individual season of football in memory (2017).
I don’t believe RFC has confirmed he is the GOAT at our club yet, but by the time Dusty hangs up the boots I reckon that will be confirmed.
Both pretty worthy contenders, although most on here would be to young to remember them in their prime. Hart was pretty unstoppable and Bartlett just never stopped.Who would be his challengers for that title at Richmond?
Hart?
Bartlett?
All the other players that get touted for this sort of tag have stood up in finals though. Have they got 3 norm smith medals to show for it? No. However I think you’ll find it incredibly hard to make a case that the likes of Ablett Jr and Sr, Matthews, Carey, Franklin, Voss etc didn’t lift in big games
History forgets the failures ..... Ablett senior played an amazing finals series in 1989, but never reached great heights outside of that. He played 4 x GF and was terrible in 2 (‘94 & ‘95) average in 1 (‘92) and amazing in one.
1989 finals : amazing finals series ... perhaps greatest ever.
1991 final: 6 touches : 0 goals
1992 finals: 4x finals and 16 goals (had a solid finals series and an average GF).
1994 finals: 4 x finals and 16 goals (in prelim and GF had a total of 10 touches, 3 marks and 4 goals ... had a nightmare GF with 1 mark and 1 goal)
1995 finals: 2 x finals and 4 goals (goalless in the GF)
1996 finals: 1 x final and 1 x goal
So outside of 1989, Ablett was an average to below average finals performer. We all tend to remember only 1989, or his mark on the final siren of the 1994 prelim. But unfortunately the reality is after 1989 he was very much a mere mortal in finals ... with some good ones, some average ones and some shockers. His finals performances were well below his H&A performances.
Then Carey had some ripper finals but some duds also:
1993: 1 x final and 0 x goals (6 touches and 1 mark)
1994: 2 x finals and 10 x goals (BOG in both finals)
1995: 3 x finals and 6 x goals (a shocker with 1 x goal in losing prelim)
1996: 3 x finals and 7 x goals (a reasonable GF with 22 touches and 1 x goal)
1997: 3 x finals and 11 x goals (BOG with 7 goals in QF.... 2 x average finals after that)
1998: 3 x finals and 7 x goals (BOG in QF, then below average with only 2 x goals total in PF and GF)
1999: 3 x finals and 11 x goals (BOG in QF, then good in PF and average in GF)
So Carey was much better overall in finals than Ablett Senior. But he still was very hit and miss, with some amazing games, some average games and some shockers.
Carey’s finals record is similar to his H&A record on average. Ablett’s is well below.
So the sands of time forget the shockers and only remember the highs of the greats of the past. I have Geelong friends from the 1989-1995 years I went to GF with constantly annoyed at their ‘guns’ inability to bring the goods in finals, Ablett, Brownless and Bairstow being their prime target of frustration.
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