NO TROLLS Transgender Discrimination AFL Lawsuit

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And I look forward to you screeching that the two pieces of bread around a slab of pork belly is exercising its absolute right to identify as fruit salad.

Therefore there's no trouble putting it on gluten free, vegan and low fat menus.

What could be wrong with that?

All those glutenphobic meatphobic fat shaming bigots could just as easily get cleaned up by Aaoron Sandilands.
Highly entertaining post, good work. Can we change Aaron to Mummy? The Mouncey v Mummy Vs Ms is begging to be part of this discussion.
 

CliffMcTainshaw

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This is true, even in Australia.

Under 18’s nationals run 400m in about 48-49 seconds which would beat Cathy freeman in Sydney.

But transgender athletes who have reduced their testosterone to 10 nanomoles per litre are not 16-17 year old boys with high androgynous testosterone in their system.

I love how straight (probably white) men feel it is their duty to gate keep who is and isn’t a women and therefore who can and can’t participate in women’s sport.

I bet many of the same people in here crying f foul about trans participation are also the same People who denigrate AFLW, and rail against the term AFL.


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You should have a listen to Tamsyn Lewis and what she has to say about this and other related matters.
 

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There is really only equestrian at the Olympics that is open to both genders and that obviously involves a huge, powerful animal as a large portion of the sport. We have non-physical sports like Poker and Chess for example that are also open, but not all that relevant in this discussion.

It doesn't happen for good reason. As a mentioned earlier, a cursory glance at Olympic and world records shows how big the gap is between the genders at the elite end specifically. The marathon for example has a discrepancy of 14 minutes between and men and women's records. 14 minutes.



What sport can you think of that women would qualify or be good enough to compete with men in an open field? Simply put, there would generally be thousands and thousands of men ahead of even the best woman in most, if not all sports and disciplines, due to the vast advantages that biological men enjoy over biological women.

For example, someone posted earlier when referencing the women's 100m sprint, that in England alone there were more than 60 something young males in the under 16 category that ran faster times than the current female world record. I'm paraphrasing the numbers there, but there would be 10s of thousands of men ahead of even the best woman in the 100m. I know two or three people myself that have run faster than the woman's world record... It's a huge gap.
Lawn bowls, archery, pistol shooting, darts, tenpin bowling and perhaps gymnastics. Jockeys, horse trainers, the list goes on. Plenty of sports that are gender neutral
 

TheKITC

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Lawn bowls, archery, pistol shooting, darts, tenpin bowling and perhaps gymnastics. Jockeys, horse trainers, the list goes on. Plenty of sports that are gender neutral

Except that most of those are not gender neutral at all. Jockey's I had overlooked and is a sport/discipline that women and man have varying advantages over each other that can be 'exploited' and that women have made huge strides in. Women - lighter, smaller physically to make weight. Men - More strength to control the horse, better spacial awareness etc. Good example to a degree, but less of an even playing field and more a some advantage, some disadvantage situation. Horse training is not a sport per se, but I get what you mean...

The rest are definitely not neutral in terms of advantages men have are none of them are 'open' competitions. Mixed lawnbowls is a thing, but so is mixed tennis and men are superior at both at the elite level, which is far more pronounced in tennis.

Gymnastics is a terrible example. What men can do on the rings, horse and bars for example is worlds apart from women for many reasons. They don't even compete in the same events within the Gymnastics umbrella, which says a fair bit. Darts I addressed previously; men's better spatial and hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement among a whole host of other factors sees them being far too good and the results bear that out. Similar and more factors absolutely apply to archery, shooting and bowling. I could go into specific physiological reasons for each if you'd like, but I've been harping on these and listed them previously and they would apply to these sports too..
 
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Are her testorone levels at male or female levels? What about her bone density and muscle mass?
For someone with Caster's condition, focusing on testosterone levels is a bit of a misnomer.

Caster likely has some form of both hyperandrogenism (excessive circulating testosterone) as well as androgen insensitivity syndrome (a disorder whereby the body can't respond the right way to the male sex hormone).

So, while we know the substantial effect that the presence of circulating testosterone can have on the development of muscle (and other athletic measures) for those with proper functioning hormone receptors, the science is still unclear as to nature and degree by which elevated testosterone levels in these individuals provide them with an 'unfair' athletic advantage.

Those with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) have testes but do not process testosterone at all - meaning testicular testosterone ends up converted into female sex hormones. The general view is that individuals with CAIS, though biologically male, can participate as female athletes as they receive no benefit from their elevated testosterone levels. Therefore, it is not as simple as to say that 'if you have testes, you cannot compete as a female' as CAIS athletes receive no athletic advantage from their elevated testosterone levels and are allowed to compete as females.

Those with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS) body do process testosterone, but poorly. The general view is that those with PAIS have a slight athletic advantage over biological females and those with CAIS (but nowhere near the same advantage that 'normal' biological males have over biological females). The problem is that - currently - there is no measurable test to determine an individual's androgen insensitivity receptiveness - it is largely determined anatomically by doctors judging how virilised they are.

What we have is a very 'unscientific' approach to determining the advantage that PAIS athletes have over biological females - however, the relative overrepresentation of suspected PAIS athletes in female categories of elite sports would suggest that it is significant enough to require some form of re-categorisation for these individuals.
 
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I love how straight (probably white) men feel it is their duty to gate keep who is and isn’t a women and therefore who can and can’t participate in women’s sport.

How is that comment correct OR is the worldwide study of BF contributors ? Having supported my daughters in their very many sports & other activities, I'm not going to be sidelined by your attempt to muzzle comment, gatekeeping you claim !
 

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And it is exactly what I am saying. Perfect example of your feelings of entitlement to gate keep others. The feelings of some (old white men) to intervene on an issue that has zero to do with them, generally justified by some misplaced feelings of needing to protect women.

Your daughters saturday arvo sports activities are not at risk of being over run transwomen (who represent a less than 1% of ALL women, ie 0.5% of the entire population).

Listen to how that sounds.

Listen to yourself Kwality, and get some damn perspective.
That is a completely irrelevant stat.
 

FreeTK

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Except that most of those are not gender neutral at all. Jockey's I had overlooked and is a sport/discipline that women and man have varying advantages over each other that can be 'exploited' and that women have made huge strides in. Women - lighter, smaller physically to make weight. Men - More strength to control the horse, better spacial awareness etc. Good example to a degree, but less of an even playing field and more a some advantage, some disadvantage situation. Horse training is not a sport per se, but I get what you mean...

The rest are definitely not neutral in terms of advantages men have are none of them are 'open' competitions. Mixed lawnbowls is a thing, but so is mixed tennis and men are superior at both at the elite level, which is far more pronounced in tennis.

Gymnastics is a terrible example. What men can do on the rings, horse and bars for example is worlds apart from women for many reasons. They don't even compete in the same events within the Gymnastics umbrella, which says a fair bit. Darts I addressed previously; men's better spatial and hand-eye coordination and more precise control of large muscle movement among a whole host of other factors sees them being far too good and the results bear that out. Similar and more factors absolutely apply to archery, shooting and bowling. I could go into specific physiological reasons for each if you'd like, but I've been harping on these and listed them previously and they would apply to these sports too..

I am personally not interested in anything to do with this post.

That is because the basis of my argument has ZERO to do with competitive advantage, and actually about the fact that trans woman can and should play womens sport because THEY ARE WOMEN.

It's a rights-based argument, not an argument about the role of male puberty on athletic ability.
 
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And it is exactly what I am saying. Perfect example of your feelings of entitlement to gate keep others. The feelings of some (old white men) to intervene on an issue that has zero to do with them, generally justified by some misplaced feelings of needing to protect women.

Your daughters saturday arvo sports activities are not at risk of being over run transwomen (who represent a less than 1% of ALL women, ie 0.5% of the entire population).

Listen to how that sounds.

Listen to yourself Kwality, and get some damn perspective.

I chose my words carefully & it is you running the gospel approach not me. FYI my mother was a groundbreaker in her own time & the women in my life make their own calls.

What sort of buffoonery is it to introduce gatekeeping. An attempt to deny the other point of view. A poor attempt to set up a gate to protect your pulpit.

That is my point of view & this is BF, got the context of where we are? You are trying to deny peoples right to express an opinion that is not in lockstep with your own.
 

FreeTK

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Very brave take.

Would you mind giving me your definition of a woman please?

Hi Fryman,

Thank you for your very important question about roles of gender and sex!

It sounds like you have some questions about gender, and gender identity?

As we like to say here at the kidshelpline, there is a lot more to to gender identity than being male or female. Learn more about gender identity and the different ways people can identify themselves, here on our website at the kidshelpline:

  • Sex can mean lots of different things. It can be about biological features our bodies have, like our genitals and chromosomes. It can be the assigned sex a doctor gives us at birth, depending on what our genitals and chromosomes look like. It can also be a legal status that we’re given at birth or that we change over our lives. We usually assume a person’s assigned sex decides their gender, but it’s more complex than that!
  • Most societies think there are only two genders that people identify with, either male or female. This belief is called the gender binary.
  • There are lots of possible gender identities out there! People can identify as one of the binary genders, as moving between genders, as no gender or as another gender altogether.
 

Hippster

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Honestly, if you were born a male you shouldn't be able to play womens sports, its incredibly unfair. Imagine if all the boys that didn't get drafted all of a sudden said I am a woman now, I am playing AFLW. You'd have basically another VFL comp.

Seriously...’all the boys that didn’t get drafted suddenly say I’m a woman now.’ Are you for real??
The only girls who will be wanting to play woman’s footy, but we’re tragically for them born with a penis, will be 100% legit.
 

Fryman

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Never said that.

If they are assaulting cis women, they should be brought to justice like any guy would.

Do all trans women assault cis women or is it a minority?
Do all men rape? Why do we have separate men’s and women’s spaces then?

Utter Drivel

Simple question mate - what is your definition of a woman?
 

TheKITC

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I am personally not interested in anything to do with this post.

That is because the basis of my argument has ZERO to do with competitive advantage, and actually about the fact that trans woman can and should play womens sport because THEY ARE WOMEN.

It's a rights-based argument, not an argument about the role of male puberty on athletic ability.

The position you are taking is that you want to disadvantage the vast, overwhelming majority of biological women in society in a sporting context to placate or appease 'the rights' of the 0.01%. It isn't fair and goes against the fabric of what sport is and fair competition. It goes against the integrity of women's sport on a whole.

You are allowed to think it's a good idea and fair enough, but you must accept that people (I would think the vast majority) will strongly disagree. It has potential massive ramifications for elite female athlete's and there is no way around that, it also affects grassroots female sports too as it all trickles down. You can claim that trans-women are women all you like, and I think most are happy to treat them as such in almost all circumstances... but the fact of the matter is that if these people are biological born males, they have distinct and inarguable advantages over the biological women they would seek to compete against. It's unsafe for one (in certain circumstances) and it goes against the whole premise of sport and competition.

Nobody has a 'right' at all to compete in sports. Why am I, as a large and fully grown man, not allowed to compete in under 12s basketball? Do you understand why that is not a good idea and goes against all logic? Do I have a right to play sport against 11 year olds? Where does the line get drawn?

Your inability to respond to my recent post when you claimed that hormone therapy levels the playing field (totally false) and now moving on to this rhetoric speaks volumes about where you are at on this topic. Have you got time to respond to that?
 

FreeTK

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The position you are taking is that you want to disadvantage the vast, overwhelming majority of biological women in society in a sporting context to placate or appease 'the rights' the 0.1%. It isn't fair and goes against the fabric of what sport is and fair competition. It goes against the integrity of women's sport on a whole.

You are allowed to think it's a good idea and fair enough, but you must accept that people (I would think the vast majority) will strongly disagree. It has potential massive ramifications for elite female athlete's and there is no way around that, it also affects grassroots female sports too as it all trickles down. You can claim that trans-women are women all you like, and I think most are happy to treat them as such in almost all circumstances... but the fact of the matter is that if these people are biological born males, they have distinct and inarguable advantages over the biological women they would seek to compete against. It's unsafe for one (in certain circumstances) and it goes against the whole premise of sport and competition.

Nobody has a 'right' at all to compete in sports. Why am I, as a large and fully grown man, not allowed to compete in under 12s basketball? Do you understand why that is not a good idea and goes against all logic?

Your inability to respond to my recent post when you claimed that hormone therapy levels the playing field (totally false) and now moving on to this rhetoric speaks volumes about where you are at on this topic. Have you got time to respond to that?

Actually, the vast majority of sporting organisations are leaning towards more inclusive practices for trans woman, so you are losing the history war on this one.

Those who promulgate the old order where it was legal, and even normal to discriminate against LGBTQIA+ groups and other minorities will be on the wrong side of history.

Sorry to break it to you dinosaur, but you'll be remember just like these guys below

1610862102773.png


The arc of the universe is long and bends towards justice!
 
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No, not at all.

I am pointing out that old white dude have promulgated discrimination and bigotry in the name of protecting women for centuries, and you are replicating that in this conversation now, by (wrongfully) putting forward a view that trans participation in sport is somehow a threat to your daughters participation in weekend sport activity.

It's simply isn't and it is a strawman argument.

What nonsense, now you try to hide behind a strawman - you really cant handle the other point of view, looking to slam dunk anyone who has a different stance.
You seek to paraphrase my point of view to justify your criticism. Such is the lack of substance. Stick to what I posted.
 
It is unfortunate that the case study for this issue is someone so outside the norm.

The average male height in Australia is 179cm, 6cm taller than me and I'm already 7cm above average. So in a game where height/reach matters there will be an advantage - and we are talking about someone who is 188cm, that's 22cm taller than the average female height (+13%).

And yes there are women that tall, but far less than there are men. It would be a shame for someone to lose their place in a side to a person who carried a natural advantage to which their entire league excluded them for up until they identified internally differently - but the natural advantage remained.

I maintain the solution is one giant open class league that has expanded grades to suit the different abilities of men, women and everyone in between. Some women will be able to match it higher up the grades, some men will only be able to perform at the level of the average women - but it won't be many and the league officials will need to be able to compulsorily promote players to higher grades if they are too good for the grade they are in.

I fully expect there to be protected grades where no men aged 14 to 55 are allowed at all by the officials.
 

TheKITC

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Actually, the vast majority of sporting organisations are leaning towards more inclusive practices for trans woman, so you are losing the history war on this one.

Those who promulgate the old order where it was legal, and even normal to discriminate against LGBTQIA+ groups and other minorities will be on the wrong side of history.

Sorry to break it to you dinosaur, but you'll be remember just like these guys below

View attachment 1041973

The arc of the universe is long and bends towards justice!

Your inability to refrain from name calling, pigeon holing etc. shows what kind of conversation you're interested in having, as does your incessant shifting of the goal posts and ignoring points made against you.

I think it speaks for itself that you've been unable to answer or rebut much or any of what I've said.
 
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