Politics Black Lives Matter

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ShanDog said:
A good thread about Jacob Blake - the man who was shot in the back several times by police, sparking the riots/protests in Kenosha late last year.


Recent article from the ABC:
www.abc.net.au

Prosecutors clear white police officer over Jacob Blake shooting in Wisconsin

US prosecutors say a white police officer who shot black man Jacob Blake last year in an incident that sparked deadly street protests was acting in self defence, while a teenager who opened fire on demonstrators in the wake of the incident, killing two, pleads not guilty to a series of charges.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

The police who were called to the scene had been told there was a felony arrest warrant against Mr Blake for domestic abuse and sexual assault, Mr Graveley said.

The officers attempted to detain Mr Blake and stop him with a taser multiple times, but Mr Blake withstood the use of force to avoid arrest, he added.

The knife was not clearly visible in the video, which also began after the previous attempts to arrest Mr Blake, Mr Graveley said.

Maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but I can't help but think that if we could collectively adopt the mindset of "Let's wait for more info" when these incidents happen, there'd be so many people saved from further violence, arrest, damage to property etc. But that won't happen.
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I mean, that's generally my mindset, but there's a bit of a thing in America at present in which de-escalation is not championed ahead of their warrior culture within police forces.

I'm also a mite wary of looking at the overall trend, then seeing isolated 'But this one wasn't caused by Racism!' cases urging for if not a complete abandonment of the movement against the status quo a definitive softening.
 
Gethelred said:
I mean, that's generally my mindset, but there's a bit of a thing in America at present in which de-escalation is not championed ahead of their warrior culture within police forces.

I'm also a mite wary of looking at the overall trend, then seeing isolated 'But this one wasn't caused by Racism!' cases urging for if not a complete abandonment of the movement against the status quo a definitive softening.
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Yeah that's absolutely fair. I think the fundamental attitude they take towards de-escalation and threats needs significant changes (though I'm an outsider, so it can be taken with a grain of salt).
 
ShanDog said:
Yeah that's absolutely fair. I think the fundamental attitude they take towards de-escalation and threats needs significant changes (though I'm an outsider, so it can be taken with a grain of salt).
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My brother put it to me that perhaps I - a white dude from Australia, who went to a private school and is university educated - probably don't know enough to really possess a valid opinion on this stuff. On one hand - as I said - my default is to wait and see concerning the outcomes, but I kind of lean towards listening to people who are potential victims ahead of the establishment telling me there's nothing to see.

Police don't need tanks, or assault weapons, or tear gas grenades. They don't need CCTV on each and every corner, and the NSA prying into our emails and government forcing legislation through that forces ISP's to provide IP addresses to government and extragovernmental entities. What the police needs - in America and worldwide - is an extreme rethink of their approaches, and the degree to which they operate to defend the government against its people ahead of the law they are there to support.

But then, that could just be my inner anarchist talking, so...
 

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Gethelred said:
On one hand - as I said - my default is to wait and see concerning the outcomes, but I kind of lean towards listening to people who are potential victims ahead of the establishment telling me there's nothing to see.
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I agree with a lot of what you're saying (perhaps for different reasons though!). However, not really this point here. At least, not when there's no inherent or targeted group that are affected. I assume by victims and within the context of this thread you are referring to African Americans, but the police interact with everyone. There's also the problem of seeing them (or anyone) as a priori "potential victims" too, but that's probably a whole other discussion!
 
ShanDog said:
I agree with a lot of what you're saying (perhaps for different reasons though!). However, not really this point here. At least, not when there's no inherent or targeted group that are affected. I assume by victims and within the context of this thread you are referring to African Americans, but the police interact with everyone. There's also the problem of seeing them (or anyone) as a priori "potential victims" too, but that's probably a whole other discussion!
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I don't see what's to dispute, really. Every single person under control of a government is a potential victim of that government, but some - the poor, the vulnerable - are more susceptible than others.

There's something of an unstated presumption of the righteousness of a state's power over its citizens that I don't think is challenged often enough, and the assumption of the state's monopoly of violence being a good thing still sits ill with me even as I struggle with the implications of it.
 
Gethelred said:
I don't see what's to dispute, really. Every single person under control of a government is a potential victim of that government, but some - the poor, the vulnerable - are more susceptible than others.

There's something of an unstated presumption of the righteousness of a state's power over its citizens that I don't think is challenged often enough, and the assumption of the state's monopoly of violence being a good thing still sits ill with me even as I struggle with the implications of it.
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The state (mostly) has a monopoly on violence, true. But that's on legal violence. You and I are perfectly capable of violence upon anyone else as soon as the desire hits and we follow through with it. Therefore we can also call anyone that you or I come within arm's reach as potential victims too.

By framing the issue of policing with a dichotomy of potential victim and potential state violator, it's streaming it all in a certain direction. If there's anything we should learn from how much greater ability we have to see incidents these days (i.e. with camera phones everywhere, CCTV etc), out should be that we try to make an extremely complex problem black and white.

I'm all for trying to solve problems at the lowest possible level, but when they are societal and complex like the interaction between police powers, safety, ethics and society are, it's clear to me that you can't get anywhere without a holistic and as unbiased frame of reference that you can possibly achieve.
 
Don't forget the media who will tell the story from the angle that motivates people the best. Giving them all of the benefit of the doubt, they'll motivate people out into the streets over a person being shot by police before the full story comes to hand.

As long as people feel there isn't transparency from the reviews of the police actions after the fact then they need to be held accountable in some fashion, which the media letting people believe it's another innocent person shot by police doing nothing achieves - unfortunately it also leads to other innocent victims being hurt whether they are retribution attacks or stepping back from the line from law enforcement not wanting to be hung out to dry as we saw in the case where the person with a warrant out for their arrest was taken into custody in a drive through, relieved a police officer of their weapon, discharged the weapon at the officers and was gunned down over it. The police in that county all caught the flu after the politicians in the area charged the police officer with murder.

I don't think we will find a just solution if you push those seeking to protect their community into the bad guys box.
 
Taylor said:
Don't forget the media who will tell the story from the angle that motivates people the best. Giving them all of the benefit of the doubt, they'll motivate people out into the streets over a person being shot by police before the full story comes to hand.

As long as people feel there isn't transparency from the reviews of the police actions after the fact then they need to be held accountable in some fashion, which the media letting people believe it's another innocent person shot by police doing nothing achieves - unfortunately it also leads to other innocent victims being hurt whether they are retribution attacks or stepping back from the line from law enforcement not wanting to be hung out to dry as we saw in the case where the person with a warrant out for their arrest was taken into custody in a drive through, relieved a police officer of their weapon, discharged the weapon at the officers and was gunned down over it. The police in that county all caught the flu after the politicians in the area charged the police officer with murder.

I don't think we will find a just solution if you push those seeking to protect their community into the bad guys box.
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I know I've accused you of this before, but...





You're doing it again. You're muddying the waters, when I'm not sure I want them any other way than crystal clear. The overarching trend in America towards police deaths of people of colour depicts a situation in which you have both increased imprisonment and increased rates of police homicide against people of colour. I've not said anything more on this subject other than I tend to think we need to be listening more to the people who are victims - of the police or the system - ahead of listening to the government.

We need to be more aware of our power as a population, and we need to be better able to ensure that our government is behaving in our interests, but my views there are only tangentially related to my views on BLM.
 
Gethelred said:
I know I've accused you of this before, but...





You're doing it again. You're muddying the waters, when I'm not sure I want them any other way than crystal clear. The overarching trend in America towards police deaths of people of colour depicts a situation in which you have both increased imprisonment and increased rates of police homicide against people of colour. I've not said anything more on this subject other than I tend to think we need to be listening more to the people who are victims - of the police or the system - ahead of listening to the government.

We need to be more aware of our power as a population, and we need to be better able to ensure that our government is behaving in our interests, but my views there are only tangentially related to my views on BLM.
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You can say all that about men vs women. Why are men incarcertated more than women? Why are men given harsher penalties for the same crime. etc etc.
 
Eagle Wrath said:
You can say all that about men vs women. Why are men incarcertated more than women? Why are men given harsher penalties for the same crime. etc etc.
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Why do men get the lions share of legal aid?
 

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medusala said:
Great, so happy to tell all the whining non entities upset about Australia day to shut up then?
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Australia Day - Massive nation-wide event with immense public spending and marking the beginning of a genocide of indigenous people. What could possibly be contentious about that??

You're pretending that shitty acts and events are ever going to be the equivalent of positive. They aren't. Get over it.
 
Chief said:
Australia Day - Massive nation-wide event with immense public spending and marking the beginning of a genocide of indigenous people. What could possibly be contentious about that??

You're pretending that shitty acts and events are ever going to be the equivalent of positive. They aren't. Get over it.
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Which country doesn't have a violent past?
 
Chief said:
Australia Day - Massive nation-wide event with immense public spending and marking the beginning of a genocide of indigenous people. What could possibly be contentious about that??

You're pretending that shitty acts and events are ever going to be the equivalent of positive. They aren't. Get over it.
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You must be one of those few who loved the ABC's story today on Invasion Day. Copping a smashing over that by the majority of the public.

Great interview on the radio today from Jacinta Nampijinpa Price (Alice Springs town councillor) slamming it as more woke nonsense from a few white apologists.
 
Eagle Wrath said:
You must be one of those few who loved the ABC's story today on Invasion Day. Copping a smashing over that by the majority of the public.

Great interview on the radio today from Jacinta Nampijinpa Price (Alice Springs town councillor) slamming it as more woke nonsense from a few white apologists.
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Didn’t see it.
 
Maybe there could be a trade off. Increase Aboriginal high school graduation rates in return for a change of date.
 
Chief said:
I’m just trying to work out what the hell you’re on about with that suggestion.
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I thought it was obvious. The employment gap between aboriginals and non-aboriginals narrows the higher aboriginal educational attainment is. As it does for all people.
 
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