Society/Culture Australia Day - Date Change

[Seeds]

Good night.

terrible deflection.

 

[FRUMPY]

was there any slaughter on the arrival date of jan 26 1788?

I always wonder this.....no-one ever has an answer

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[cartwright]

Isn't the events of March 3 just further into the same book that starts with January 26?

Aus act was signed in 1986. A fair way down the story. But it actually relates to Australia as a nation. Not something some blokes from another country did.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

 

[FRUMPY]

View attachment 1046480

Was that Jan 26th?

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[M Malice]

Anzac day represents a day of australian idiocy and subservience to britain. Not realy one we should remember.

the values of australia is however something we should celebrate even though i think we cam greatly improve on our values.

That's a whole other debate, however in my view Anzac day honours and commemorates the many young people who gave their lives and were injured while serving their country and those that returned.

I think an extremely small minority when Anzac day comes around contemplates on geopolitics and it's implications.

 

[Chief]

Was that Jan 26th?

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As you know, marking the beginning of slaughter and dispossession with a celebration is deeply troubling for many indigenous people.

You want to believe that you’re making some brilliant argument here. You’re not.

If you want to know the history, look it up. It’s easy. Tons of stuff around.

 

[juss]

I’d say almost nobody is really doing either. It’s a day off for most people. They wouldn’t be able to form a coherent sentence about what our values and culture actually are. I know I haven’t ever been able to.

Agreed. Thats my camp, its just another day off, same as labour day, queens birthday, cup day, etc. But those that do "celebrate" the day for the day I think are doing so by celebrating what the country is now, not necessarily the day's events hundreds of years ago.

 

[Chief]

Agreed. Thats my camp, its just another day off, same as labour day, queens birthday, cup day, etc. But those that do "celebrate" the day for the day I think are doing so by celebrating what the country is now, not necessarily the day's events hundreds of years ago.

Something they can do on another day.

 

[juss]

Something they can do on another day.

As I said, I have no problem with the date changing. But of all the debates in the world this is one I am less passionate about and you have to pick your battles. Change the date, great. Dont change the date, so be it.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Agreed. Thats my camp, its just another day off, same as labour day, queens birthday, cup day, etc. But those that do "celebrate" the day for the day I think are doing so by celebrating what the country is now, not necessarily the day's events hundreds of years ago.

Yes agreed, so for those people the actual date they do that is of no consequence and could easily be any other day

 

[FRUMPY]

Agreed. Thats my camp, its just another day off, same as labour day, queens birthday, cup day, etc. But those that do "celebrate" the day for the day I think are doing so by celebrating what the country is now, not necessarily the day's events hundreds of years ago.

Yep, 99% of aussies couldnt give a s**t when it is, as long as we get our holiday. Ive mentioned previously that its too close to my christmas holidays period anyway so would be happy for it to be moved back 3 or 4 weeks - mid Feb would be good - 2nd or 3rd Monday every feb each year

 

[Ry009]

To be fair, I reckon most people that are against changing the date are more opposed to the slippery slope than any particular affinity with January 26.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Seeds]

I always wonder this.....no-one ever has an answer

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Cos it didnt. Jan 26 doesnt represent a slaughter. It represents the arrival of british people and culture. That brought a lot of bad things for the indiginous but also good. If the indiginous people only believe in the bad then there can be no australia day on any date.

That's a whole other debate, however in my view Anzac day honours and commemorates the many young people who gave their lives and were injured while serving their country and those that returned.

I think an extremely small minority when Anzac day comes around contemplates on geopolitics and it's implications.

did they go to give their lives though? Whenever you see documentaries or read books about the anzacs there appears to be a massive moronic naivety about what they were getting themselves into. They believed they were the superior race and were destined to be heroes. They were going to gain social status and see the world. they expected to steam roll through the Turks. Its hard to sympathise for their intent. Only the fact they were victims of both misinformation from australian society about the nature of war and a british military that threw them to the wolves.

 

[M Malice]

did they go to give their lives though? Whenever you see documentaries or read books about the anzacs there appears to be a massive moronic naivety about what they were getting themselves into. They believed they were the superior race and were destined to be heroes. They were going to gain social status and see the world. they expected to steam roll through the Turks. Its hard to sympathise for their intent. Only the fact they were victims of both misinformation and a british military that throw them to the wolves.

We are derailing the thread a little, apart from the strong language of the highlighted I broadly agree with you + I have great sympathy for them and IMO most would have had good intentions... at the very least in their mind.

 

[parsons nose]

was there any slaughter on the arrival date of jan 26 1788?

First fleet arrived on the 20th of January. Flag in the soil 26th of January. The flag is in soil was a declaration of claim by the sovereign. The die was cast at that moment, irrespective of when any ‘slaughter’ took place.

Fwiw, it’s unlikely slaughter happened upon arrival of the first fleet. Given the British were already well versed in ‘first contact’ phenomena they would have understood the importance of peace offerings in the process of acquisition. What seems clear is the natives were resistant to gestures of amity. Furthermore, Phillip would have had more pressing issues to deal with upon embarking. It is likely that deadly conflict was precipitated by the white man’s determination to defend property. The date on which this occurred is unclear.

 

[Seeds]

As you know, marking the beginning of slaughter and dispossession with a celebration is deeply troubling for many indigenous people.

You want to believe that you’re making some brilliant argument here. You’re not.

If you want to know the history, look it up. It’s easy. Tons of stuff around.

It marked the begining of those things and everything else that the british bought over Such as farming, housing, trade, alcohol and rule of law. You cant pick and choose what it symbolizes the beginning of to suit some narrative.


im happy for the date to be changed. The arrival of the british isnt necessarily the right date. but not because the date symbolizes a slaughter and not a lot else.

 

[Seeds]

First fleet arrived on the 20th of January. Flag in the soil 26th of January. The flag is in soil was a declaration of claim by the sovereign. The die was cast at that moment, irrespective of when any ‘slaughter’ took place.

Fwiw, it’s unlikely slaughter happened upon arrival of the first fleet. Given the British were already well versed in ‘first contact’ phenomena they would have understood the importance of peace offerings in the process of acquisition. What seems clear is the natives were resistant to gestures of amity. Furthermore, Phillip would have had more pressing issues to deal with upon embarking. It is likely that deadly conflict was precipitated by the white man’s determination to defend property. The date on which this occurred is unclear.

Yes the die was cast regarding a lot of things.

 

[CheapCharlie]

Cos it didnt. Jan 26 doesnt represent a slaughter. It represents the arrival of british people and culture. That brought a lot of bad things for the indiginous but also good. If the indiginous people only believe in the bad then there can be no australia day on any date.

Is Australia day meant to be about celebrating aspect of British culture transplanted to Australia?
The conversation is moving towards having an Australia Day that doesn't focus on a particular day of arrival by some British outcasts, but rather a day that encompasses the heritage of those who were here for ~50,000 years + arrivals later than that and the current crop of people who are Australian.

Better to pick a month, then a random day in that month to celebrate and start Australia day anew

 

[Rob]

Care to elaborate?

The people protesting will just move onto something else, then rinse and repeat.

 

[Goroyals22]

The people protesting will just move onto something else, then rinse and repeat.

Well to be fair climate change has gone backwards this summer so that is ruled out for the next few months but im sure something will happen in Bidens America to get the professional protesters riled up again


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[ferball]

Isn't the events of March 3 just further into the same book that starts with January 26?

Not really.

26th January is the date the British started a penal colony on what is now our country.

March the 3rd was the date of the Australia act which formally removed any actual sovereignty from Britain. It was the day British Parliament could no longer make laws for Australia.

Its independent of the fuss around invasion day.

THe truth is we aren't going away. If anything we'll become more like indigenous Australians the longer we live here. They adapted to the place over tens of thousands of years. So the argument about changing the date is two sided.

One - its a bit of an insult to celebrate the day white people got here while ignoring the people who were already here. Its the same place. How will we mature as a nation if we don't face this and reconcile ourselves to what has happened here historically?

Two - what we call Australia Day actually has nothing to do with Australia in terms of what it means. Its the date the Poms did something. How will we mature as a nation if we still have such a fundamentally flawed understanding of who we are and how we arrived at this point as a free country?

Changing the date to March 3rd recognises this second point and is a step to deal with it.

Furthermore by 1986 the constitution recognised indigenous people were citizens as well. Its not the same as celebrating the day someone stuck a butcher's rag in our soil.

 

[ferball]

Anzac day represents a day of australian idiocy and subservience to britain. Not realy one we should remember.

the values of australia is however something we should celebrate even though i think we cam greatly improve on our values.

Its one we should remember if that bullshit cost us family members.

 

[ferball]

If it represents the beginning of indiginous slaughter (which came after the date) then it also represents everything else which came after the date too including democracy, free education, health care and unification. you cant have it both ways. It either represents everything that came after or none of it.

FFS All of that stuff hasn't necessarily benefited blackfellas the way it has benefited everyone else. That is why people are upset about it.

 

[ferball]

The people protesting will just move onto something else, then rinse and repeat.

So?