Bumped Random Chat - I want BBQ

[Topkent]

He can earn a living, just not with a company that feels their sales and revenue are put at risk by the fact he goes out of his way to espouse them publicly.

Honestly, wouldn't matter if it was that he liked pineapple on pizza if the NRL watching public decided that was heinous enough to stop spending their hard earned on the code.

Why is this being dragged into some religious freedom debate when its not. He can say what he likes, just doesn't get to force a business to employ him if saying it goes against their rules.

Because that's not freedom then.
That's like saying your free to commit murder you just have to spend the rest of your life in jail.

So if Folau goes down to a butchers and applies for a job there, you'd think it's ok for them to not hire him based on his religious beliefs?

 

[Russian Demon]

Because that's not freedom then.
That's like saying your free to commit murder you just have to spend the rest of your life in jail.

So if Folau goes down to a butchers and applies for a job there, you'd think it's ok for them to not hire him based on his religious beliefs?

Thats a false equivalence, friend.

He isn't in trouble for a held belief. He is in trouble for making public statements in conflict with the values of his employer. He can think what he likes, just doesn't get to broadcast it while working in a place that doesn't allow it.

It's a common limitation in a lot of areas, working in govt for instance. Hes free to find an employer who will be ok with his social media content.

 

[Topkent]

Thats a false equivalence, friend.

He isn't in trouble for a held belief. He is in trouble for making public statements in conflict with the values of his employer. He can think what he likes, just doesn't get to broadcast it while working in a place that doesn't allow it.

It's a common limitation in a lot of areas, working in govt for instance. Hes free to find an employer who will be ok with his social media content.

Ohhh.
So sporting bodies should be allowed to sack Muslims if they don't agree with their religious beliefs.

 

[Russian Demon]

Ohhh.
So sporting bodies should be allowed to sack Muslims if they don't agree with their religious beliefs.

Ill rephrase that...


Sporting bodies should be allowed to terminate employees who after repeated warnings, continue to break the terms of their contracts regarding social media activity?

Yes.


You keep bringing belief into it... nobody is sacked for a belief, they are sacked for actions.

 

[Topkent]

Ill rephrase that...


Sporting bodies should be allowed to terminate employees who after repeated warnings, continue to break the terms of their contracts regarding social media activity?

Yes.


You keep bringing belief into it... nobody is sacked for a belief, they are sacked for actions.

It's not a belief if you aren't allowed to vocalise it. What are they gonna arrest people for inner monologoues?

 

[ImissFrosty]

It's pretty simple, Folau is a good player and hence a well known one. But the question is this, would parents want their kids idolizing a man who is publicly express his hatred of gay people? And then from that, would the parents then want to throw their money behind a code that accepts these views by letting him play and giving him more volume to express his beliefs (which aren't religious freedom btw, it's hate speech). Answer is no to both.

It's kinda like the pray the gay away churches that are being/are now illegal in Vic. You can express your beliefs, but not when they cross over the line of hate speech. He just shouldn't play in the Nrl again, would be a disgrace to the LGBTQI+ community and it would tear the nrls already tarnished reputation.

 

[Tulip]

Folau should be allowed to play NRL, I agree. But he'll never get a contract now because enough people believe his views are toxic and will vote with their feet. He's welcome to air them, but his employer and the platform he airs them on are allowed to distance themselves.

 

[Tulip]

It's not a belief if you aren't allowed to vocalise it. What are they gonna arrest people for inner monologoues?

What? A belief can be internal or external. Folau has chosen to air his views publicly in an inflammatory way that makes people upset and is a textbook case of discrimination, even if he's a real Christian who doesn't realise what he's doing.

 

[Charlie_s123]

I think the real issue in this whole saga is that his view on homosexuality isn't some fringe belief held just by Folau and members of his church. It's a commonly held belief amongst many religious types in Australia and around the World (and not just Christianity). The broader discussion I'd like to see is how we reconcile the idea of freedom of religion when what a religion says is so out of whack with community standards that it effectively renders you unemployable if you repeat it publicly. If a Muslim player says on FB that women who don't cover their hair then they will go to hell, will they get sacked? If a catholic person says on Instagram that any woman who gets an abortion is going to hell, will they be sacked too?

Neither of the beliefs above are particularly radical for either religion, but I could safely assume they would not be very well accepted publicly (myself included) and as such would probably be frowned upon by sporting codes / sponsors / employers as well. I think after Folau most people who wanted to remain employed would not publicly express those views, but if they did I think their employment would be protected by the law (I believe this is why Rugby Aus had to pay Folau out in the end, much to many people's dismay). I don't blame Rugby Aus for their actions in paying the problem away and not taking it to court, but the downside is it seems to have kicked the can down the road, so to speak.

Summing up, if we legally protect religious belief, but when parts of that belief if expressed publicly it's considered hate speech by many, then I think something isn't right.

 

[Crimson Azure]

Not liking gay people isnt a belief that is made more legitimate because you attribute it to a magic fairy.

Has he said he hates gay people of is it the practice he's against?

As an example does he say: 'I hate homosexuals.' or 'I hate the practice of homosexuality.'

Genuinely asking as I've never bothered to look into it.

 

[Proper Gander]

Has he said he hates gay people of is it the practice he's against?

As an example does he say: 'I hate homosexuals.' or 'I hate the practice of homosexuality.'

Genuinely asking as I've never bothered to look into it.

As far as I have seen, he regards homosexuality as a sin etc. I don’t recall him saying he hates gays. I haven’t looked closely into it either

 

[Dory_77]

As far as I have seen, he regards homosexuality as a sin etc. I don’t recall him saying he hates gays. I haven’t looked closely into it either

From what I recall his posts were generally in the vein of 'Repent and be saved, or serve eternity in hell, heathens!' so I guess it's more an objection to the practice.

 

[Proper Gander]

From what I recall his posts were generally in the vein of 'Repent and be saved, or serve eternity in hell, heathens!' so I guess it's more an objection to the practice.

That’s what I thought. He’s parroting ideas from scripture.

If it was up to me I would say let him burble away on his own time. So long as he isn’t creating workplace issues or purporting that his beliefs represent his club. I don’t especially want to hear his views but that’s okay, I won’t follow him on Insta or whatever. In much the same way I don’t borrow the bible from a lending library. It feels as though this story would die painlessly if it was given no oxygen

 

[Toump Ass]

I'd get sacked if I posted homophobic s**t on social media because if my clients saw it they might reconsider their business with my employer. And if I'm costing my employer money I think that's fair enough.

I don't personally think what Fololo posted is particularly offensive- he's a religious nutcase after all- but if his employer told him to keep it to himself and he refused... too bad.

I mean he's getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars it's not really that hard not to post a shitty meme on instagram.

 

[jhong]

Please show me anywhere in our constitution that declares we have a right to "Free speech" The best the high court could come up with was "Implied"
We have no bill of rights , we have no legal right of free speech.
In regards to Filou , he has a contract to play in France this year , he wants to come home , St George wanted to buy his contract out and bring him back , the press got wind of this and the board of St George got flooded with "Don't " requests . They withdrew the offer . The NRL have had no say in this ATM .
I have no doubt after his football career is over he will become a "Christian Priest " of sorts .
His views offend me , but if he plays sport and shuts up on social media , i have no objection to him playing at all. I object to him using his sport as a platform to ply me with his personal beliefs .
The whole reason no one wants him is because of this.

 

[Topkent]

What? A belief can be internal or external. Folau has chosen to air his views publicly in an inflammatory way that makes people upset and is a textbook case of discrimination, even if he's a real Christian who doesn't realise what he's doing.

Again, it's not a belief if you can't have it external.
That's like saying you can have food but you're not allowed to eat it.

All he did was share a post that was basically bible scripture.

You people are nuts, either you want religious views protected or people should be able to walk out on a sporting field and unleash on those offensive religious views.

You cant just pick and choose which parts of religion it's ok for them to say

 

[Toump Ass]

According to his faith everyone is going to hell- unless of course they repent and accept Jesus Christ as their saviour. Gay, straight, black, white, male, woman, whatever.

He's posted tonnes of memes that say "Jesus saves!" which nobody has an issue with because they don't specifically name a minority group that's historically been the target of violence and discrimination.

Anyway this PC woke cancel culture de-platforming bullshit clearly isn't working, maybe it's time to just round up bigots and shoot 'em in the head. I'm sick of getting angry about things on Twitter anyway.

 

[Charlie_s123]

Please show me anywhere in our constitution that declares we have a right to "Free speech" The best the high court could come up with was "Implied"
We have no bill of rights , we have no legal right of free speech.
In regards to Filou , he has a contract to play in France this year , he wants to come home , St George wanted to buy his contract out and bring him back , the press got wind of this and the board of St George got flooded with "Don't " requests . They withdrew the offer . The NRL have had no say in this ATM .
I have no doubt after his football career is over he will become a "Christian Priest " of sorts .
His views offend me , but if he plays sport and shuts up on social media , i have no objection to him playing at all. I object to him using his sport as a platform to ply me with his personal beliefs .
The whole reason no one wants him is because of this.

We do have the Australian Human Rights Commission Act which defines discrimination as:

'(a) any distinction, exclusion or preference made on the basis of race, colour, sex, religion, political opinion, national extraction or social origin that has the effect of nullifying or impairing equality of opportunity or treatment in employment or occupation;[7]'

Is Folau's opportunity for employment impaired because of his religious beliefs? I guess that would be something for people with more legal knowledge than me to comment on

 

[Meds]

Again, it's not a belief if you can't have it external.
That's like saying you can have food but you're not allowed to eat it.

All he did was share a post that was basically bible scripture.

You people are nuts, either you want religious views protected or people should be able to walk out on a sporting field and unleash on those offensive religious views.

You can't just pick and choose which parts of religion it's ok for them to say

There's a big difference in believing that marriage should be between a man and woman, and saying "Those that are living in sin (referring to homosexuals and other groups) will end up in hell unless you repent"

He's entitled to his view, it's unfortunate that he feels that way and I don't agree with it at all, but that's life in a democratic society. What he's not entitled to, however, is freedom from prosecution if he chooses to victimise people based on their sexuality and spew hate speech across public channels.

In these free speech vs human rights issues, it's always difficult to clearly define the line between stating an opinion and inciting hate and violence. I will always come down on the side of inclusion.

 

[jhong]

Is Folau's opportunity for employment impaired because of his religious beliefs? I guess that would be something for people with more legal knowledge than me to comment on

Would have to ask the St.George Dragons that question .

 

[Topkent]

There's a big difference in believing that marriage should be between a man and woman, and saying "Those that are living in sin (referring to homosexuals and other groups) will end up in hell unless you repent"

He's entitled to his view, it's unfortunate that he feels that way and I don't agree with it at all, but that's life in a democratic society. What he's not entitled to, however, is freedom from prosecution if he chooses to victimise people based on their sexuality and spew hate speech across public channels.

In these free speech vs human rights issues, it's always difficult to clearly define the line between stating an opinion and inciting hate and violence. I will always come down on the side of inclusion.

He didn't victimize people and incite hate, all he did was share a screenshot about what Christians believe are the conditions for hell.

Let's say 40% of the MFC list says Hannah Mouncy shouldn't be allowed to play sport with women, you would then support 40% of our list being sacked for not being inclusive?

 

[Charlie_s123]

Would have to ask the St.George Dragons that question .

And if Folau decided to take them to court I'd be interested to see the outcome. Won't happen though.

 

[Dory_77]

Is Folau's opportunity for employment impaired because of his religious beliefs? I guess that would be something for people with more legal knowledge than me to comment on

Probably the answer is yes, but proving it would be very hard. A club can just say something vague about 'not the right fit for our team' and it'd be hard to pin down in court that his religion was the reason (although most would assume that is the real reason).

 

[jhong]

Probably the answer is yes, but proving it would be very hard. A club can just say something vague about 'not the right fit for our team' and it'd be hard to pin down in court that his religion was the reason (although most would assume that is the real reason).

He is under contract to play in France for another season . He is not being prevented from playing . If anyone is going to court it will be by his French club for breach of contract if he doesn't turn up .

 

[Charlie_s123]

He is under contract to play in France for another season . He is not being prevented from playing . If anyone is going to court it will be by his French club for breach of contract if he doesn't turn up .

He seems to be prevented from playing in Australia though.