Hypothetically - Would you swap these yesteryear premierships to be in Richmond's position now? (Carl, Coll, Ess & Melb)

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Masotiger

Masotiger

All Australian
Feb 12, 2020
871
3,023
Pod Mosto Drvo
AFL Club
Richmond
As we get closer to the commencement of AFL Season 2021 and we wait in anticipation for announcements relating to attendances at this years games, as a Richmond supporter I sincerely hope to get to Rd 1 to see the club unfurl 2 premiership flags.

My mind casts back to Rd 1 of 2018 and the Carlton Cheer Squad (rather ungraciously) draping a banner over their heads reading "Not as sweet as 16" as our 11th premiership, the 2017 premiership flag was being unfurled. Covid-19 is likely to save them the envy of watching Richmond's 12th and 13th flag unfurled.

Carlton might have 16 VFL/AFL premierships to boast about, but it's been over a quarter of a century since the club had premiership glory. No supporter of the club under 35 years would know what it's like to celebrate a premiership. The club has cleared its debt and reached record membership numbers, but it's nowhere near the goliath I remember it through the 1960's and '70s.

Collingwood have had recent success (2010), but there's no escaping the fact the club has only won 2 premierships in 62 years. It might have 15 premierships but 9 of them were won prior to 1930. There's no doubting the size of this club, but sustained recent success would propel it to the biggest.

Essendon have had more recent success through the 1980's up to 2000. 16 premierships but No.11 (1962) and No.12 (1965) are starting to look like a long time ago. As is 2000 given the decimation the supplements scandal caused, the effects of which are still being felt and likely to delay any future success.

Melbourne has been bereft of success for getting close to 60 years now.

I would think premierships won during your own lifetime are much more relevant. Therefore, disregarding the finals systems in place particularly prior to 1931, I pose the following hypothetical:

If you could do a deal with the devil and give back 2 from yesteryear for 1 today; as a supporter of Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon and Melbourne would you swap these premierships for 2017, 2019, and 2020?

Carlton:
1906, 1907, 1908, 1914, 1915, 1938

Collingwood:
1902, 1903, 1910, 1917, 1919, 1927

Essendon:
1897, 1901, 1911, 1912, 1923, 1924

Melbourne:
1900, 1926, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1948

Interested in your thoughts. And those supporters of other teams.
 

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Masotiger said:
As we get closer to the commencement of AFL Season 2021 and we wait in anticipation for announcements relating to attendances at this years games, as a Richmond supporter I sincerely hope to get to Rd 1 to see the club unfurl 2 premiership flags.

My mind casts back to Rd 1 of 2018 and the Carlton Cheer Squad (rather ungraciously) draping a banner over their heads reading "Not as sweet as 16" as our 11th premiership, the 2017 premiership flag was being unfurled. Covid-19 is likely to save them the envy of watching Richmond's 12th and 13th flag unfurled.

Carlton might have 16 VFL/AFL premierships to boast about, but it's been over a quarter of a century since the club had premiership glory. No supporter of the club under 35 years would know what it's like to celebrate a premiership. The club has cleared its debt and reached record membership numbers, but it's nowhere near the goliath I remember it through the 1960's and '70s.

Collingwood have had recent success (2010), but there's no escaping the fact the club has only won 2 premierships in 62 years. It might have 15 premierships but 9 of them were won prior to 1930. There's no doubting the size of this club, but sustained recent success would propel it to the biggest.

Essendon have had more recent success through the 1980's up to 2000. 16 premierships but No.11 (1962) and No.12 (1965) are starting to look like a long time ago. As is 2000 given the decimation the supplements scandal caused, the effects of which are still being felt and likely to delay any future success.

Melbourne has been bereft of success for getting close to 60 years now.

I would think premierships won during your own lifetime are much more relevant. Therefore, disregarding the finals systems in place particularly prior to 1931, I pose the following hypothetical:

If you could do a deal with the devil and give back 2 from yesteryear for 1 today; as a supporter of Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon and Melbourne would you swap these premierships for 2017, 2019, and 2020?

Carlton:
1906, 1907, 1908, 1914, 1915, 1938

Collingwood:
1902, 1903, 1910, 1917, 1919, 1927

Essendon:
1897, 1901, 1911, 1912, 1923, 1924

Melbourne:
1900, 1926, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1948

Interested in your thoughts. And those supporters of other teams.
Click to expand...
It’s nice to win nowadays, but I am not sure why they’d want their team to have won less Premierships.

I feel like a Premiership Richmond won before I was born and one today is equal-weighted. Of course it is nice to win one nowadays and see it, but I personally wouldn’t trade 6 Premierships for 3 today if I was them for this reason. Those 6 are a part of each club’s long history.
 
Are you suggesting in the hypothetical that history is rewritten such that leading in to say the 2017 year, the two premierships from the early 1900s were in fact won by Richmond, and then the 2017 season pans out with a premiership to your chosen club?

I still have some time left on this planet and am confident in the next 40+ years they will win at least one so I’d opt to keep the current tally.
 
Several things.

Your math is off. Carlton won their last flag in 1995; someone could be as young as 2 at the time could remember something of it, if not be able to remember it as an adult does. I am 32, and I remember the day, some of the match.

Secondly, you miss the point of following a team. The reason 2017 was so sweet for you and yours is precisely because of how far back you had to climb to get there, the mistakes you made on the way, the sense that finally - belatedly - you were onto something. We don't go for a club purely because of success; we support a club because our family did, because we love the game and the club itself. We acquaint ourselves with its history, with the great players and the successes and failures of the past, and we acknowledge that as ours.

If we were to accept your scenario, it would change how that past looked, and uproot some of the reason why Carlton is my team. History is precious.

Absolutely not.
 
Masotiger said:
As we get closer to the commencement of AFL Season 2021 and we wait in anticipation for announcements relating to attendances at this years games, as a Richmond supporter I sincerely hope to get to Rd 1 to see the club unfurl 2 premiership flags.

My mind casts back to Rd 1 of 2018 and the Carlton Cheer Squad (rather ungraciously) draping a banner over their heads reading "Not as sweet as 16" as our 11th premiership, the 2017 premiership flag was being unfurled. Covid-19 is likely to save them the envy of watching Richmond's 12th and 13th flag unfurled.

Carlton might have 16 VFL/AFL premierships to boast about, but it's been over a quarter of a century since the club had premiership glory. No supporter of the club under 35 years would know what it's like to celebrate a premiership. The club has cleared its debt and reached record membership numbers, but it's nowhere near the goliath I remember it through the 1960's and '70s.

Collingwood have had recent success (2010), but there's no escaping the fact the club has only won 2 premierships in 62 years. It might have 15 premierships but 9 of them were won prior to 1930. There's no doubting the size of this club, but sustained recent success would propel it to the biggest.

Essendon have had more recent success through the 1980's up to 2000. 16 premierships but No.11 (1962) and No.12 (1965) are starting to look like a long time ago. As is 2000 given the decimation the supplements scandal caused, the effects of which are still being felt and likely to delay any future success.

Melbourne has been bereft of success for getting close to 60 years now.

I would think premierships won during your own lifetime are much more relevant. Therefore, disregarding the finals systems in place particularly prior to 1931, I pose the following hypothetical:

If you could do a deal with the devil and give back 2 from yesteryear for 1 today; as a supporter of Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon and Melbourne would you swap these premierships for 2017, 2019, and 2020?

Carlton:
1906, 1907, 1908, 1914, 1915, 1938

Collingwood:
1902, 1903, 1910, 1917, 1919, 1927

Essendon:
1897, 1901, 1911, 1912, 1923, 1924

Melbourne:
1900, 1926, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1948

Interested in your thoughts. And those supporters of other teams.
Click to expand...
Quick question, can I ask how old you are?
 
My father would regale me with Collingwood feats pre and around WW2. What a time to be alive. Losing one's way into the GF, susso queues, KPPs Curtain - Chifley in top nick, suburbia rolling its sleeves up.


There were Japs in the jungle leaving tortured soldiers strung upside doen alive as an augury.

A favourite was Lizabeth Scott's femme fatale characters and that's pretty much how his marriage ended up. The good ol days when premierships were won by men, boys pick pocketed and women swooned.


Or so he'd have me believe the drunken rotter.
 
I wouldn't even trade Richmond's 1983-2016 for Carlton, Hawthorn's or Essendons.

Without those horrid years, 2017 wouldn't be as joyful and passionate.

So premierships or not, I think each clubs history is special to their supporters and would make the eventual climb atop Mount Everest all that much sweeter.

However if I was a Saints supporter, I wouldn't look to success as a way of justifying my loyalty and support of the club. Id look at the family connection, memories made with nan and pop, m and dad.

Success isn't everything, but you do need success at some point to keep footy enjoyable. It's meant to help us escape from our shitty lives, if it is always shitty in itself, then whats the point? Some success is essential.
 
Tzatziki_Man said:
I wouldn't even trade Richmond's 1983-2016 for Carlton, Hawthorn's or Essendons.

Without those horrid years, 2017 wouldn't be as joyful and passionate.

So premierships or not, I think each clubs history is special to their supporters and would make the eventual climb atop Mount Everest all that much sweeter.

However if I was a Saints supporter, I wouldn't look to success as a way of justifying my loyalty and support of the club. Id look at the family connection, memories made with nan and pop, m and dad.

Success isn't everything, but you do need success at some point to keep footy enjoyable. It's meant to help us escape from our shitty lives, if it is always shitty in itself, then whats the point? Some success is essential.
Click to expand...
It also helps how success for each club is defined a little differently. St Kilda haven't the premierships, but they've had all time champions of the game come through their team. They've Robert Harvey, one of the most underestimated players when talking of the AFL era greats. They've prized individual achievements, because they've had no choice really.

Then, you've got Collingwood, who value their 'them against us, up to and including fate' thing. They prize their precious victimhood to their chests, whilst also valuing the fact that they're always thereabouts. Making grand finals is an achievement for them, because it has been so difficult historically even to make them for some clubs. You've got North and their 'shinboner spirit'; the soul of the underdog. You've got the chip on the shoulder of WC and Sydney and Port Adelaide, all three clubs who for different reasons believe themselves exceptional, better and different. You've got the near completely unearned arrogance of Melbourne supporters, who swing between premierships and individual achievements when they're paying attention.

Obviously, Carlton's no exception when it comes to unearned arrogance, at least in a modern context. But we've never really gone over to the individual achievement bandwagon, not really. Too many fans and too much conditioning to accept nothing but premierships.

Each of us have our own personal reasons why we support the teams we do, and an awful lot of it is bound up in family. Our histories are important to us, because of that, no matter how we determine success.
 

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Gethelred said:
Several things.

Your math is off. Carlton won their last flag in 1995; someone could be as young as 2 at the time could remember something of it, if not be able to remember it as an adult does. I am 32, and I remember the day, some of the match.

Secondly, you miss the point of following a team. The reason 2017 was so sweet for you and yours is precisely because of how far back you had to climb to get there, the mistakes you made on the way, the sense that finally - belatedly - you were onto something. We don't go for a club purely because of success; we support a club because our family did, because we love the game and the club itself. We acquaint ourselves with its history, with the great players and the successes and failures of the past, and we acknowledge that as ours.

If we were to accept your scenario, it would change how that past looked, and uproot some of the reason why Carlton is my team. History is precious.

Absolutely not.
Click to expand...
Great comment - history is indeed precious, no matter how hard we try to forget it these days
 
Supporting a club is not saying 'Premiership - Tick. Now I think I'll go to the A-League'.

It's a journey - week by week, year by year. If it was only about premierships, there's no point in tuning in until the last weekend of September. You have some surprising good days (beating Hawthorn in the rain at Waverley when they were good and we .................... weren't), some surprising bad days (well, maybe not surprising if you followed Richmond in the 90s and 2000s), some incredible emotional moments (Ftzroy's last game in Melbourne - terribly sad).

And the history of a club is vital. It gives the act of following a club a feeling of purpose, continuity and depth (wrong word, but I know what I mean). And clubs like GWS are building theirs - everyone started somewhere.

The actual results of games between grown men playing what is essentially a children's game provide the ongoing narrative - but they are not necessarily the point.
 
Masotiger said:
As we get closer to the commencement of AFL Season 2021 and we wait in anticipation for announcements relating to attendances at this years games, as a Richmond supporter I sincerely hope to get to Rd 1 to see the club unfurl 2 premiership flags.

My mind casts back to Rd 1 of 2018 and the Carlton Cheer Squad (rather ungraciously) draping a banner over their heads reading "Not as sweet as 16" as our 11th premiership, the 2017 premiership flag was being unfurled. Covid-19 is likely to save them the envy of watching Richmond's 12th and 13th flag unfurled.

Carlton might have 16 VFL/AFL premierships to boast about, but it's been over a quarter of a century since the club had premiership glory. No supporter of the club under 35 years would know what it's like to celebrate a premiership. The club has cleared its debt and reached record membership numbers, but it's nowhere near the goliath I remember it through the 1960's and '70s.

Collingwood have had recent success (2010), but there's no escaping the fact the club has only won 2 premierships in 62 years. It might have 15 premierships but 9 of them were won prior to 1930. There's no doubting the size of this club, but sustained recent success would propel it to the biggest.

Essendon have had more recent success through the 1980's up to 2000. 16 premierships but No.11 (1962) and No.12 (1965) are starting to look like a long time ago. As is 2000 given the decimation the supplements scandal caused, the effects of which are still being felt and likely to delay any future success.

Melbourne has been bereft of success for getting close to 60 years now.

I would think premierships won during your own lifetime are much more relevant. Therefore, disregarding the finals systems in place particularly prior to 1931, I pose the following hypothetical:

If you could do a deal with the devil and give back 2 from yesteryear for 1 today; as a supporter of Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon and Melbourne would you swap these premierships for 2017, 2019, and 2020?

Carlton:
1906, 1907, 1908, 1914, 1915, 1938

Collingwood:
1902, 1903, 1910, 1917, 1919, 1927

Essendon:
1897, 1901, 1911, 1912, 1923, 1924

Melbourne:
1900, 1926, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1948

Interested in your thoughts. And those supporters of other teams.
Click to expand...
I'd rather just merge with West Coast to be honest.
17 flags
200k+ members
1 million excuses when we are garbage
Seems good to me
 
Collingwood and Dons walked away from their suburbs and home grounds of their own volition for $/promise of modern success, Collingwood and Essendon in name only, OP proposition is just a further step in trading away their history, reckon they would make the Faustian pact.

Richmond is still faithful to it's history but is demolishing the Jack Dyer Stand in an egregious act of historical and cultural vandalism...definitely would have their head turned by the devil's offer.

Carlton stuck fat at PP, and proudest history of all until the AFL era...immune to the temptation imo. Ditto Melbourne.
 
Masotiger said:
As we get closer to the commencement of AFL Season 2021 and we wait in anticipation for announcements relating to attendances at this years games, as a Richmond supporter I sincerely hope to get to Rd 1 to see the club unfurl 2 premiership flags.

My mind casts back to Rd 1 of 2018 and the Carlton Cheer Squad (rather ungraciously) draping a banner over their heads reading "Not as sweet as 16" as our 11th premiership, the 2017 premiership flag was being unfurled. Covid-19 is likely to save them the envy of watching Richmond's 12th and 13th flag unfurled.

Carlton might have 16 VFL/AFL premierships to boast about, but it's been over a quarter of a century since the club had premiership glory. No supporter of the club under 35 years would know what it's like to celebrate a premiership. The club has cleared its debt and reached record membership numbers, but it's nowhere near the goliath I remember it through the 1960's and '70s.

Collingwood have had recent success (2010), but there's no escaping the fact the club has only won 2 premierships in 62 years. It might have 15 premierships but 9 of them were won prior to 1930. There's no doubting the size of this club, but sustained recent success would propel it to the biggest.

Essendon have had more recent success through the 1980's up to 2000. 16 premierships but No.11 (1962) and No.12 (1965) are starting to look like a long time ago. As is 2000 given the decimation the supplements scandal caused, the effects of which are still being felt and likely to delay any future success.

Melbourne has been bereft of success for getting close to 60 years now.

I would think premierships won during your own lifetime are much more relevant. Therefore, disregarding the finals systems in place particularly prior to 1931, I pose the following hypothetical:

If you could do a deal with the devil and give back 2 from yesteryear for 1 today; as a supporter of Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon and Melbourne would you swap these premierships for 2017, 2019, and 2020?

Carlton:
1906, 1907, 1908, 1914, 1915, 1938

Collingwood:
1902, 1903, 1910, 1917, 1919, 1927

Essendon:
1897, 1901, 1911, 1912, 1923, 1924

Melbourne:
1900, 1926, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1948

Interested in your thoughts. And those supporters of other teams.
Click to expand...


We have 16 premierships and I would never ever think about trading one in. Regardless of our recent drought, we are on the right path now (finally) and hopefully will salute again some time soon.

This premiership drought is all of our own doing, we had administrators who thought their s**t didn't stink back in 95-96 and treated the rest of the competition with disdain & derision. Our people even thought the rules of the competition didn't apply to us nor did they have to adapt to the new era. The salary cap & the draft were not embraced and we all know how well that all ended up.

The financial penalties we endured for the salary breaches would have sent most clubs to the wall, thankfully we were able to somehow handle it over time as well as make strategic changes to the leadership in the club.

When we win #17, it will be all the while sweeter too.

And to those Tigers fans getting all smug & smarmy, that 1980 premiership took 37-years to erase so its not like you are in an exclusive category here.
 
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