- Mar 29, 2019
- 8,966
- 13,550
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
I dont care what happens at other clubs, I only care about what happens at Collingwood.
News Review into racism at Collingwood
- Thread starter 76woodenspooners
- Start date
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sr36
Hall of Famer
HL has been very pointed in his complaint being about mmt. That's who he's targeted. His story about Bucks telling him off was initially the centre piece of his complaint. He views that as being about speaking up on race, when it seems very likely that it was solely about him speaking against Eddie and he views Bucks as belittling him by asking if the Leso name was OK. Clearly the relationship went to s**t from there. But for us outsiders, there's nothing to see that makes us know that the fallout had anything to do with the club or Buckley responding to him negatively due to speaking about race. Doesn't disprove it either. There's just nothing to see.
I agree that his story is different to Leon's. Personally, I think that a first generation Australian who was hugely popular, in no small part to his ethnicity being viewed as very cool, has become a symbol of the awful indigenous discrimination that has occurred in this country and has continued to position himself as such. I think it's outrageous.[/QUOTE]
jmac70
On the porch
What do you think about what happened to Leon?
JB1975
Brownlow Medallist
Happy for you to be outraged by Heritier, plenty are.
It doesn't take away from the fact that the experience of both players involved them feeling ostracised and unsupported within the club after they'd spoken up.
That's a serious issue, one which underscores some of what the review laid down.
sr36
Hall of Famer
I took a different inference from Leon's words. I viewed him as feeling ostracised by the incident and the fact that it wasn't really dealt with. Not that he was ostracised for speaking up. It might seem a petty difference and no difference for
the victim. But I'd view the actions of the club very differently. One is incompetence or ignorance. The other is much much worse.
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jmac70
On the porch
You should probably read it again then.
sr36
Hall of Famer
I've read it twice. He talks about feeling like an outcast and not being in the in-crowd, but it's not stated that it was the result of speaking up, you're inferring that.
But I'm actually not talking about the actions of some individuals in the group anyway, ostracising occurs when complaints are made against individuals for all manner of complaint. I'm talking about the actions of management. The HL complaint isnt that the players ostracised him, he's talking about the club's management, not a group of employees in it. The scale is very different.
jmac70
On the porch
Wow.
sr36
Hall of Famer
Why wow.
jmac70
On the porch
No point, enjoy your perspective.
sr36
Hall of Famer
Sorry. You don't understand my perspective. It contains too much grey for you.
Although you did seem to understand a level of greyness last night when you explained why you used to call H by a particular name.
Pretty confident that you won't offer that greyness to anyone else though.
JB1975
Brownlow Medallist
I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion, to be honest.
The quote from Leon Davis is quite clear that the aftermath of the incident upset him more than anything else, in particular the environment at the club after he'd spoken up.
He specifically refers to a 'football club mentality' (i.e. don't rock the boat).
jmac70
On the porch
We have a different understanding of Leon’s experience. We are not going to agree so no point discussing. Please don’t try to bait me any more.
sr36
Hall of Famer
You're probably right. But I still think it's open for interpretation. The aftermath could be referring to the after effects of the incident rather than the result of making a complaint - that's how I read it. He explains the footy club mentality as everyone has your back - not your version. The journo editing in [incident] into Leon's words was an odd one as it wasn't necessary under your interpretation.
But none of this is the point I was really making. Nor does it make a real difference to my point. Some players you recruit behaving racistly was probably somewhat unavoidable in that era. Our response to the incident Leon describes sounds absolutely shithouse but was probably ignorance from management rather than anything worse. HLs claim of being ostracised by mmt for speaking out against racism is different - another level of seriousness in terms of issues at CFC . It'd be repugnant.
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sr36
Hall of Famer
I won't bait again if you agree to not do your poxie one word replies.
JB1975
Brownlow Medallist
I think that your interpretation of the bolded is right.
I think that your overall interpretation of what Leon is saying, in relation to how he was made to feel after the incident, is wayward.
Maybe we can agree that what Davis had to say in that article is --however you and me interpret bits and pieces of it-- profoundly disturbing. As a Collingwood supporter, just reading about his family's concern about him playing at our club is hurtful.
sr36
Hall of Famer
Extremely saddening and disappointing. I'm not surprised by it at all though, so I probably wouldn't say disturbed. In terms of the initial incident, my lack of surprise is due both to the era that we're talking about and what had already been said regarding this story - when someone was questioned about MM, there was a story of a new indigenous player that was being racially abused by teammates and MM cracking down on it.
In terms of the club handling the Leon incident incredibly poorly, that surprise me even less. Even as recently as 4 years ago when we recruited Chris Mayne, it's pretty clear from what Mayne and others have said that the club hadn't moved away from the "Drink a cup of cement and harden the f up" attitude to emotional stuff. I think the issue was broader than racism and not really racism at all. It can be classified as structural racism, due to the fact that it is very likely to have a negative outcome for POC, but really I think it was a more general ignorance to emotional stuff and inclusion in a much broader sense.
- Oct 7, 2002
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- Collingwood
You started it.
I'll stick with my views on Hertitier's claims until facts prove different. I never had any reason to question Leon's integrity or honesty but I have long ago formed an opinion about Lumumba and at this stage don't intend to alter it. When Waleed Aly decides he has to publicly apologise for what seemed to me a fair interview with Lumumba, perhaps I will reassess my position. Unfortunately in the current climate I no longer see the case being decided in court. Collingwood is a no win situation where they are guilty until proven innocent, and I think they will unwisely cut their losses and settle privately with Lumumba.
sr36
Hall of Famer
Why do you think it would be unwise.
Because with the unsubstantiated, vague and trivial accusations Heritier has thrown at the club over a number of years, I don't think Collingwood can afford to let him win this battle. They are already very much on the backfoot given the negative public attention and opinion they have attracted, and need to show they have no case to answer against Lumumba.
sr36
Hall of Famer
The mud is going to stick anyway.
I'll chip in if the settlement involves a gag that moves us away from an angry vindictive voice that isn't looking for understanding and unity and whose claims are automatically believed because of the cause, even if those claims contain little to no support and even if he lacks credibility.
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SouthernPie
Team Captain
- Nov 12, 2019
- 390
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- AFL Club
- Collingwood
The only accusation that I can determine is of a racist nature from Heritier is the one of being called "chimp". On the one hand, there are players who have come forth and said they heard him being addressed with this nickname. On the other hand, there are players and club officials (MM, Buckley and Eddie) who have said they never witnessed this. Even Cameron Cloke came out on FB yesterday and said he considered himself to be a good mate of Heritier's, but had never heard the term being used. There are other players who said Heritier offered up this nickname himself and there's the evidence of the profile in the Footy Record that seems to substantiate this.
Regardless of its origin, Heritier was given the chance to address the senior players when he didn't want the nickname used anymore and he himself said its use ceased after that. Maybe this "process" was far from ideal in that Heritier had to directly stand up for himself, rather than have club officials do it. However, from what I can gather it gave Heritier a chance to explain why his outward acceptance of the nickname had changed and to do some educating of his team mates and he took this opportunity.
Similarly, the club gave him the opportunity to further explain the ignorance associated with racism and educate the footy public when he appeared with Eddie on AFL360 on Fox Footy immediately after the Goodes incident.
The other instances he complains about - believing he had to object to the "Mardi Gras" poster and feeling belittled by Buck's response about Seedman's nickname had more I believe to do with the souring of his personal relationship with Bucks, rather than racism. Heritier himself has said that the statement from Bucks that "he threw the president under the bus" was delivered in his exit interview, not while the Goodes matter was at its height, when Heritier was still a paid "employee" of the club.
If Heritier has any other specific accusations, other than those above, I am not aware of them.
I am certainly no lawyer, but I'm not sure that Heritier could prove beyond a doubt that "[Collingwood] failed to take any or any sufficient steps to provide and maintain a safe working environment, including by protecting the plaintiff from racial abuse or racially offensive conduct". Not unless he has other specific instances he has not yet mentioned.
The words of Leon Davis however are very explicit in describing the racist actions he was subjected to and their aftermath. I feel so so very, very sad for him and furious that he experienced this. If Leon were to take the club to court, he would justifiably win his case I reckon. Lumumba I'm not so sure about - it's all so very murky.
sr36
Hall of Famer
I'm no lawyer either, but in terms of the chimp name - even if complicit or more - I reckon he could build a pretty good case of the club not providing necessary training or monitoring and thus an unsafe environment. THough it might be hard for him to demonstrate damages in order to receive a payout.
