AFLW Round 4 - Carlton v Richmond at IKON PARK, Saturday 3.10pm AEDT

[balmainforever]

Who’s to say that Grace develops as well at Richmond as what she has at Carlton.
Her games last year were nothing special. Her first one this year was average at best and she had a break out game vs the saints. Think this argument needs to be reassessed at the end of the season.

 

[Phar Ace]

But you can only have so many on each Tier, its not hard to see her getting squeezed maybe she got a better offer.
They put all their eggs in the Bernardi, Fredrick, Conti, Brennan basket.

I saw three vflw games incl the bulldogs final and she doesnt look quick Egan and pretty sure she played off the bench in 2 outta those three

Agree. I'm no fan of Sheahan's work (or lack there of is more pertinent) and I had never seen Egan play in VFLW due to being in the wrong state. So I relied on the many astute comments here and took it as a given we missed something special in Egan. Saw her first time on Saturday - she is not something special, at least not yet. She is lighter and slower than I expected (to get to your point Cdog). She handballs much more than she kicks, slower players tend to (it's a generalization, and that comment can be potted with countless examples I'm sure - ie Conti a couple of weeks ago). The last two weeks she has had 20+ in winning games, 10+ in the first two losing games.

Last season she was in that under 15 range so the last two games were a step up perhaps. She doesn't mark the ball much. Contested ball work is OK, and her metres gained are affected by her tendency to handball more than kick so is not that meaningful. Score involvements were Ok to average.

If I said I was underwhelmed that is probably a bit harsh, but she is going OK. She may well yet become one of the stars of the comp. But I can see why, when building a list for the first time, you might become influenced by what has already been done by others when compared to some of the traits mentioned. And as someone else mentioned, do we even know what Egan's conversations and motivations were post 2019? Maybe they had to be taken into account as well (and I hate given Sheahan an out). It will be interesting to see if any go passed Egan in the years to come, or whether her improvement continues and we all wince a little more at the sound of her name in a game.

Fact is she is statistacally behind only Conti on our list at present and behind only Prespakis on the Carlton list so I get LOTW and some others enthusiasm.

 

[RunningBounce]

Coaches votes:

10 Monique Conti (RICH)
7 Darcy Vescio (CARL)
4 Kerryn Harrington (CARL)
3 Madison Prespakis (CARL)
3 Katie Brennan (RICH)
2 Rebecca Miller (RICH)
1 Courtney Wakefield (RICH)

 

[RunningBounce]

Prepaskis got a week, and deserved it. She belongs at Carlton. Cheat. Possibly the difference in the game was the 20 minutes when Sarah Hosking was off the ground.

 

[RunningBounce]

Followed our 2019 VFLW season very closely. Firstly Miller and Stahl made the 2019 VFLW team of the year. They were standouts in our side (with Conti who played very few games) in a year we made finals. You look at that VFLW 2019 team of the year and just about all of them were or have become bloody good AFLW players so the VFLW level was pretty good with many AFLW players playing. Miller and Stahl would have 100% been picked up by other clubs. Stahl has probably surprised me as I would have thought she would have made a better impact given her skill level but some players just take more time. We are getting glimpses and I have hope. Miller surprised me more last year with her lack of form and what we see now is the way she played in 2019. Cordner in the side has been a huge huge plus and allowed Miller some freedom to take the game on a bit. Confidence has also played a massive part.

You can't really complain about signing Edmonds ahead of Grace as they play totally different positions and again, Edmonds form in 2019 was pretty good and she out performed most rucks week after week with her taps to advantage. Unfortunately I can't see her returning to the side without massive strides being made to her work below her knees and around the ground. Could not believe Seymour was used as a defender last year.

Grace Campbell is as tough as nails. Devastated she left and is just a tackling machine. When you play on Grace you'll be feeling it days after the game ends. I bet Lily Mithen is feeling it right now. Have absolutely no problem with her selection. None.

Makur Chuot has simply been played out of position due to necessity and now finds herself out of the side. She's our Matthew Wade. She can play but not as a lockdown defender.

Wakefield has done an amazing job given our delivery. If she played in a top team she would be leading the goalkicking and the media would be raving. I wish she was 5 years younger and I am keeping my fingers crossed that she has a couple more seasons in her when we are delivering the ball to our forwards advantage consistently.

Woodward shocked a few people with her selection, including me TBO, but she will probably go down as a player that does more behind the scenes than in games. Back in 1996 we had a player called Paddy Steinfort on our list for 5 years and he never played a game. His impact off the field was enormous. I think Woodward is seen in the same light. You just have to have these people around as they make others better.

Now Grace Egan is becoming a really good player. She had some solid games at the back end of the 2019 season but wasn't outstanding and she was behind others. I don't blame the club for not using its first pick of the 2019 draft (after #1 was used as a trade on Conti) on Grace. It was a gamble that Carlton took and its played out well for them. Grace is turning into a fine player but what you see now is different to the Grace of 2019. You win some you lose some. Good luck to her. We took a gamble on others like Seymour and Lavey (later) when others wouldn't and they'll be fine players for our club too. In terms of Lavey not being signed as a rookie, she isn't taking someone else's spot by not being a rookie as lists are capped at 30 including rookies (plus injury replacements).

Good post.

How different was the level of VFLW compared to the AFLW??? Gotta say, I was expecting all those Tigers to slot straight in and play well. Bit silly of me, really. The stand-out clubs are Adelaide, Freo and Brissy. Gotta play the best to be the best, and that doesn't happen in the state league.

 

[Phar Ace]

Coaches votes:

10 Monique Conti (RICH)
7 Darcy Vescio (CARL)
4 Kerryn Harrington (CARL)
3 Madison Prespakis (CARL)
3 Katie Brennan (RICH)
2 Rebecca Miller (RICH)
1 Courtney Wakefield (RICH)

Mmm - the winner 14 votes - the loser 16 votes
Be interesting to see how they were allocated. Conti 5/5 is a given. Vescio was 4/3 and the other 4 went to Harrington meaning no other vote for her. Probably Prespakis a 3 from the filth and 2's to Miller and Brennan, with 1's to Brennan and Wakefield. That said I do like Harford.

 

[TigermanM2]

You can spin things anyway you like but the facts are the list build of our AFLW team has been woeful. Zero wins after a season and half is pretty compelling evidence.

There are absolutely no excuses for not pre-listing Grace Egan and how we let Campbell go for pick 43 is beyond me. Egan showed way more than some of the veterans who were pre-listed and enough for Carlton to see her talent.

Our Tier 1 signings have been a disaster. Fredericks, Monahan and Bernardi are on track to be delisted and Brennan is only just hitting form. Big question marks over some of our trades this year also. D'Arcy and Dargan have shown very little.

Our 1st pick of 2019 looks a bust. Slow, unathletic and timid. Meanwhile McKenzie could have been recruited by a 12 yold Bigfooty poster so some serious questions about our recruiting folk still to be answered.

Lavey and Seymour look our only wins in a long list of failures.

Our AFL team is run like an amateur women's team from 5 years ago.

Hahaha that's a hell of a post!

I'm more a glass half full type of guy and stoked that it seems they nailed most of their trades and picks last year. Cordner and Hocking have been great and Lavey looks likes like a player. Sure McKenzie was a standout but as we've seen there's no guarantee that you get that #1 pick right even when its obvious I think D'Arcy has been better than you think. She has had some solid moments and some iffy ones but she wasn't recruited to be a star.

We've played 3rd, 5th, 2nd with Carlton being the lowest ranked team. Pretty good for an amateur run team to be in a position to say that they should have beaten Collingwood and Carlton.

Have we made mistakes, absolutely but if you don't make a few mistakes you aren't trying hard enough.

I'm seeing progress and more importantly I'm seeing strides being made to fix some of those mistakes. It only took our men's side 37 years.

 

[TigermanM2]

Good post.

How different was the level of VFLW compared to the AFLW??? Gotta say, I was expecting all those Tigers to slot straight in and play well. Bit silly of me, really. The stand-out clubs are Adelaide, Freo and Brissy. Gotta play the best to be the best, and that doesn't happen in the state league.

Not the lone ranger here. We all were and the club expected more too. You don't recruit the likes of Brennan, Conti and Frederick by painting a picture of anything but success and Tommy paid the price.

 

[TigermanM2]

Looking at the stats for the game on the weekend and came to the conclusion that game saving spear tackles should have their own column.

 

[Phar Ace]

Hahaha that's a hell of a post!

I'm more a glass half full type of guy and stoked that it seems they nailed most of their trades and picks last year. Cordner and Hocking have been great and Lavey looks likes like a player. Sure McKenzie was a standout but as we've seen there's no guarantee that you get that #1 pick right even when its obvious I think D'Arcy has been better than you think. She has had some solid moments and some iffy ones but she wasn't recruited to be a star.

We've played 3rd, 5th, 2nd with Carlton being the lowest ranked team. Pretty good for an amateur run team to be in a position to say that they should have beaten Collingwood and Carlton.

Have we made mistakes, absolutely but if you don't make a few mistakes you aren't trying hard enough.

I'm seeing progress and more importantly I'm seeing strides being made to fix some of those mistakes. It only took our men's side 37 years.

The trajectory at the moment under Ferg is outstanding really. I'm not sure how anyone can really be so unhappy to be half glass empty on what has been produced so far!

You only have to look at how well the players are working together to understand that. Hosking is really leading the group in tandem with Brennan. Ferg is breaking McKenzie in gently and not expecting too much. Conti probably overworks herself at times, but support is there now. Team balance is looking the best it has been. It's all about sticking to the processes they train. They become more and more familiar that they become instant rather than thought about, and then you look quicker.

Some of Collingwood and Carlton's ball movement was as much about it being part of a process and routine practiced over years than anything classy. Yes they had classy moments and they proved a difference in the end, but being in those games for long periods proves Ferg is on the right track with the team assembled.

 

[Bojangles17]

Given Egan was on our VFL list we had the option to pre-list her for free. Instead Sheehan elected to sign a whole group of spuds in preference to Egan. Hence Egan became available in the open market and Carlton bid their 1st round pick. These are the sort of decisions that highlight how unprofessional our AFLW set-up is under Sheehan.

Don’t be so narrow minded to pinprick one decision in your assessment, we also successfully recruited
KB
And Conti
Then this year
Hosking , cordner and others
Who accomplished that , a bowl of gold fish
In any case as we emerge from a tough opening I would hand the reigns to a better credentialed footy person . I don’t doubt though that Balmey has helped some in putting this together

 

[Bojangles17]

Looking at the stats for the game on the weekend and came to the conclusion that game saving spear tackles should have their own column.

WAs very ordinary form by prepakis and given it happened twice me thinks she has a technique problem,,, and how pasty are the commentary, do they ever critique a dangerous tackle or a bs umpiring decision

 

[balmainforever]

WAs very ordinary form by prepakis and given it happened twice me thinks she has a technique problem,,, and how pasty are the commentary, do they ever critique a dangerous tackle or a bs umpiring decision

she is getting the dangerfool treatment.
Nothing she does can be wrong

 

[Bojangles17]

she is getting the dangerfool treatment.
Nothing she does can be wrong

She was either suspended or reprimanded for rough conduct earlier this year too

 

[Stan Judkins]

Hahaha that's a hell of a post!

I'm more a glass half full type of guy and stoked that it seems they nailed most of their trades and picks last year. Cordner and Hocking have been great and Lavey looks likes like a player. Sure McKenzie was a standout but as we've seen there's no guarantee that you get that #1 pick right even when its obvious I think D'Arcy has been better than you think. She has had some solid moments and some iffy ones but she wasn't recruited to be a star.

We've played 3rd, 5th, 2nd with Carlton being the lowest ranked team. Pretty good for an amateur run team to be in a position to say that they should have beaten Collingwood and Carlton.

Have we made mistakes, absolutely but if you don't make a few mistakes you aren't trying hard enough.

I'm seeing progress and more importantly I'm seeing strides being made to fix some of those mistakes. It only took our men's side 37 years.

Yeah agree, our team seems to be more balanced, but a work in progress still
Hosking to shore up the midfield = tick, Cordner to shore up defence = big tick, D'Arcy was a Pies forward who was bought in to give us run and ball use in defence = tick, Lavey was drafted for pace and athleticism on the wing = tick
We've played some very good teams, people seem to forget about that
Lets see how we go with a team in our range this Friday in Geelong, we're getting there slowly but that was always going to be the case anyway
The days of assembling a North Melbourne type list when entering the comp are long gone

 

[Phar Ace]

Yeah agree, our team seems to be more balanced, but a work in progress still
Hosking to shore up the midfield = tick, Cordner to shore up defence = big tick, D'Arcy was a Pies forward who was bought in to give us run and ball use in defence = tick, Lavey was drafted for pace and athleticism on the wing = tick
We've played some very good teams, people seem to forget about that
Lets see how we go with a team in our range this Friday in Geelong, we're getting there slowly but that was always going to be the case anyway
The days of assembling a North Melbourne type list when entering the comp are long gone

Yep, let's wait and see a Hawthorn or an Essendon try and assemble a team. All the new teams are struggling in various ways.

 

[Phar Ace]

WAs very ordinary form by prepakis and given it happened twice me thinks she has a technique problem,,, and how pasty are the commentary, do they ever critique a dangerous tackle or a bs umpiring decision

She's big bodied, she's been told to use it. She's on notice now - well and truly. Still an exceptionally good player at that level right now. Not sure for how long though.

 

[Bojangles17]

She's big bodied, she's been told to use it. She's on notice now - well and truly. Still an exceptionally good player at that level right now. Not sure for how long though.

No question a good player , being careless and reckless to point of causing serious injury is nothing about good , more about being a thug . She’s better than that and needs to think about her tackling

 

[Phar Ace]

No question a good player , being careless and reckless to point of causing serious injury is nothing about good , more about being a thug . She’s better than that and needs to think about her tackling

I've seen other young big bodied girls struggle with that too is all I'm saying. Her centre of gravity is very low to a lot of girls and does tend to lift as a consequence. I really don't think she means it as much as you might think - but, as you say, her technique is going to have to get better. You can't be hard and dangerous.

 

[Bojangles17]

I've seen other young big bodied girls struggle with that too is all I saying. Her centre of gravity is very low to a lot of girls and does tend to lift as a consequence. I really don't think she means it as much as you might think - but, as you say, her technique is going to have to get better. You can't be hard and dangerous.

I get that people defend by saying she didn’t mean to do it , however owing a duty of care means you gotta MEAN NOT to do harm and that’s where she failed and was reckless

 

[NimFromSudan]

I admire the optimism on this board but the truth is this list doesn't have the bones of a finals team as it's currently constituted. We'll still get a little bit better over this season as the structure comes together, but we don't have enough good young players to ensure we'll improve ahead of or even in line with clubs like Melbourne, WB or frankly almost every other club in the league.

Losing top 20 picks for Hosking and Frederick, and other picks for D'Arcy and Dargan is a recipe for being mediocre for a long time. We're trading 200 points of future value for 100 points today, and it's going to cost us in 2023 and 2024 and 2025 etc.

Cordner might be the only trade where we made value last year and even there it's only because she's also released Seymour and Miller.

And ill make the point again on Egan. She doesn't have to be a gun to constitute a list-building failure. She just has to be as good as a pick-50-something replacement player because that's all it would have cost us to match a bid on Akec or Woodward etc.

 

[Lord of the Wings]

I admire the optimism on this board but the truth is this list doesn't have the bones of a finals team as it's currently constituted. We'll still get a little bit better over this season as the structure comes together, but we don't have enough good young players to ensure we'll improve ahead of or even in line with clubs like Melbourne, WB or frankly almost every other club in the league.

Losing top 20 picks for Hosking and Frederick, and other picks for D'Arcy and Dargan is a recipe for being mediocre for a long time. We're trading 200 points of future value for 100 points today, and it's going to cost us in 2023 and 2024 and 2025 etc.

Cordner might be the only trade where we made value last year and even there it's only because she's also released Seymour and Miller.

And ill make the point again on Egan. She doesn't have to be a gun to constitute a list-building failure. She just has to be as good as a pick-50-something replacement player because that's all it would have cost us to match a bid on Akec or Woodward etc.

Spot on. A lot of apologists on here. We have one of the oldest lists in the comp and haven't won a game!

 

[Bojangles17]

I admire the optimism on this board but the truth is this list doesn't have the bones of a finals team as it's currently constituted. We'll still get a little bit better over this season as the structure comes together, but we don't have enough good young players to ensure we'll improve ahead of or even in line with clubs like Melbourne, WB or frankly almost every other club in the league.

Losing top 20 picks for Hosking and Frederick, and other picks for D'Arcy and Dargan is a recipe for being mediocre for a long time. We're trading 200 points of future value for 100 points today, and it's going to cost us in 2023 and 2024 and 2025 etc.

Cordner might be the only trade where we made value last year and even there it's only because she's also released Seymour and Miller.

And ill make the point again on Egan. She doesn't have to be a gun to constitute a list-building failure. She just has to be as good as a pick-50-something replacement player because that's all it would have cost us to match a bid on Akec or Woodward etc.

You’re being unrealistic with your expectations on several fronts
1. Who said anything about finals
2. How did Collingwood and Carlton perform in first couple of seasons ,how are we tracking by comparison
3. If you think we could have drafted a better player than Hosking with the pick it cost us , youre in la la land. There’s five or so very good players that come out of the women’s draft the rest pffft
4 we came bottom last year , we won’t this year

 

[Phar Ace]

I admire the optimism on this board but the truth is this list doesn't have the bones of a finals team as it's currently constituted. We'll still get a little bit better over this season as the structure comes together, but we don't have enough good young players to ensure we'll improve ahead of or even in line with clubs like Melbourne, WB or frankly almost every other club in the league.

Losing top 20 picks for Hosking and Frederick, and other picks for D'Arcy and Dargan is a recipe for being mediocre for a long time. We're trading 200 points of future value for 100 points today, and it's going to cost us in 2023 and 2024 and 2025 etc.

Cordner might be the only trade where we made value last year and even there it's only because she's also released Seymour and Miller.

And ill make the point again on Egan. She doesn't have to be a gun to constitute a list-building failure. She just has to be as good as a pick-50-something replacement player because that's all it would have cost us to match a bid on Akec or Woodward etc.

I agree with Bo on the first point. As a player you play each game to win and you let the rest take care of itself. You then believe if you play well enough often enough you might earn the right to play finals. It's not a goal of itself, it's a consequence of smaller goals. As a Club supporter I have the same outlook really of our AFLW team. I look week to week. Others are welcome to expect more if they want.

It's a tough gig joining an elite league, the top league of its kind. No one gives you an easy leg up and we made mistakes. Tell me if you can find anyone on here (BigFooty) that thinks Sheahan did a great or even a good job. Tell that to Sheahan, the rest on here know the shortcomings so far, but support the team we will, and look for the improvements. Nothing more can happen on the list front until then. The Club supports people to be their best. When they can't or won't they are welcome to leave. I suspect Sheahan is receiving plenty of support, but she will have outcomes, KPI's and the like. She will be riding the razors edge!

Top 20 pick for Hosking has far reaching effects on the whole of the team. Personally I think she is improving Conti. Way too early to count that as any sort of win or fail though. So far, I like it! Frederick was a well intentioned choice that so far is a massive fail. I'd cut any player some slack for a 1st season across trade. This season she stands up and gets better or it's a bust. We definately need more from her - is nothing like she was at Brisbane - and that's on her. Her career appears in free fall, looking at 2018 to 2019 to 2020 stats. She would know! I hope she answers somehow.

Egan is still a case well made, and that goes back to the Sheahan argument, and any peripheral issues (if any) we simply cannot know about. Can we see where we stand at end of the season before claiming we are getting further behind - which seems to be the nub of your argument.

 

[balmainforever]

you’ve got to crawl before you can walk.
let’s just win a game or two before we start thinking of finals.