Coronavirus/COVID-19

[Mattdougie]

Labor voters blame Scomo

Libs blame Andrews

Both are absolute thieves, liars, con men and incompetent blame deflectors.

Both have blood on their hands

 

[Boristown]

That doesn’t explain how state run aged care faired so much better than fed ran aged care.

What happened there? Selective virus particles?

Not sure, maybe there was a Victorian strain that only impacted this state's fed run aged care facilities compared to every other state.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Not sure, maybe the there was a Victorian strain that only impacted this state's fed run aged care facilities compared to every other state.

I think you’ve just clocked the Covid Virus, Boris!

 

[Boristown]

I think you’ve just clocked the Covid Virus, Boris!

Well, it can't have anything to do with this state's hotel quarantine being an absolute **** show and allowing the virus to be unleashed to an extent no other state experienced, can it?

Or maybe, just maybe, they go hand in hand. Hard to say.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Well, it can't have anything to do with this state's hotel quarantine being an absolute **** show and allowing the virus to be unleashed to an extent no other state experienced, can it?

Or maybe, just maybe, they go hand in hand. Hard to say.

You still can’t explain how state run aged care faired so much better.

 

[maddog37]

That doesn’t explain how state run aged care faired so much better than fed ran aged care.

What happened there? Selective virus particles?

Why didn’t fed run age care in other states have such horrendous outcomes?

 

[doggies ftw]

Whoever was running the aged cares is irrelevant, the reason it got out and into the aged cares in the first place is because of the state run hotel quarantine program, which obviously hasn’t improved too much we’ve just been lucky.

Call it a mistake, incompetence whatever but the fact that it was then covered up after is corrupt.

Also you can’t give any credit whatsoever to the government for getting the second wave under control, they literally did one thing - lock everything down for 4 months. No s**t that was going to get it under control.

 

[Boristown]

You still can’t explain how state run aged care faired so much better.

Uh, because they're better run than fed aged care. That's obvious, isn't it?

Now your turn. Why didn't every other state's fed run aged care experience hundreds of deaths like Victoria?

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Why didn’t fed run age care in other states have such horrendous outcomes?

We aren’t taking about other states. Feds ballsed up their responsibilities, which probably cost 600+ lives in Victoria.

The rest of our state, outside fed run aged care faired pretty well.

Tells us that had the Feds had their s**t together, we’d probably only have 100 odd deaths. Regardless of our states handling of HQ.

 

[Boristown]

Tells us that had the Feds had their sh*t together, we’d probably only have 100 odd deaths. Regardless of our states handling of HQ.

Lol.

One built the fire, the other lit the match. Both are responsible.

And not too different from other states? The entire place was locked down for 4 months.

 

[maddog37]

We aren’t taking about other states. Feds ballsed up their responsibilities, which probably cost 600+ lives in Victoria.

The rest of our state, outside fed run aged care faired pretty well.

Tells us that had the Feds had their sh*t together, we’d probably only have 100 odd deaths. Regardless of our states handling of HQ.

Why aren’t we talking about other states?

Because it doesn’t suit your agenda?

 

[dogwatch]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Yes we've learned a lot over the last 12 months.

One thing that is not hindsight is the ongoing cycle of mishaps and exploitation from privatisation, outsourcing, deregulation and even self regulation (aka the fox in charge of the henhouse) that has unfolded over the last 35 years. It was begun under Labor (it would have been howled down under the Libs but people seemed to think it would be OK under Labor because they always protected the little guy ... LOL) and then carried on progressively over the next 35 years under governments from both sides.

Some examples:

• The CBA which was created as a state-owned bank by a Labor government to protect the little guy from the predations of the free-enterprise banks was privatised by another Labor government in the 1980s. Fast forward 30 years and the CBA is one of the worst offenders in rapacious and unconscionable conduct revealed by a Royal Commission. Who would have guessed?
• Labor and Liberal governments made IT outsourcing in federal government agencies a one-solution-fits-all article of faith. Despite contract clauses supposed to help Australian companies it was mainly the big internationals that benefited - IBM, EDS, etc. Ten years later every agency who went that way (most were forced against their wishes) had buyer's regret. Many service standards had dropped and projects didn't suddenly come in on time and under budget. There were certainly some benefits but the great leap forward never eventuated and in many cases it went backwards. Once their initial outsourcing contract term had expired many agencies engaged management consultants to work out how they could get back control and reduce the burgeoning costs.
• The deregulated residential aged care industry. Within 25 years of changing the model and within 5 years of switching control to the Federal government it became the subject of a Royal Commission which is finally releasing its full report (today IINM).

Yes there are some things done better by private enterprise but there are also some things done better by governments.

Checks and balances are always a target. There are occasions when regulation can be streamlined or eased but cries of "red tape" or "green tape" are typically the slogans used by those whose easy profits are at risk. There is seldom anyone powerful to stand up for the poor, the voiceless, the aged, the dispossessed, the environment until it's too late. Certainly not with the lobbying power and influence that big business has had over governments for the last 35 years.

When deregulating or shifting things out of government hands the rhetoric has usually only been around efficiencies, jobs and the economy, with seldom enough examination of the valuable protections that had been in place and what the consequences will be if those protections are removed.

This much is NOT hindsight: too often it's been a cycle of outsource/privatise -> deregulate -> exploit -> regret.

Failings in the residential aged care industry had been in the public conversation since at least 2016. As so often happens it took an episode of Four Corners (Sept 2018) to get a Royal Commission going.

As Kathy Eagar said " By packaging residential aged care as social care, it dumbed down the care and created the perfect storm. This has been a disaster waiting to happen."

The only thing that wasn't known was that a totally new disease in Covid-19 was just over the horizon but even then we'd had enough scares of novel zoonotic diseases like SARS1, Swine flu, MERS etc in the last decade or two.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

And not too different from other states? The entire place was locked down for 4 months.

Due in large part to the Feds inaction on serious aged care issues.

Bloody disgraceful

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Why aren’t we talking about other states?

Because it doesn’t suit your agenda?

Not sure, Maddog. Hasn’t been my decision though. Seems like this thread was started to discuss Victoria’s covid situation. Could be wrong though.

Seems like you and some others like to bring in the other states card because you refuse to acknowledge there’s a huge amount of responsibility that lies with the fed government.

Why is that Maddog? Why do you shy away from answering questions about the Feds involvement in all of this?

 

[Boristown]

Not sure, Maddog. Hasn’t been my decision though. Seems like this thread was started to discuss Victoria’s covid situation. Could be wrong though.

Seems like you and some others like to bring in the other states card because you refuse to acknowledge there’s a huge amount of responsibility that lies with the fed government.

Why is that Maddog? Why do you shy away from answering questions about the Feds involvement in all of this?

I'm more than happy to admit both the fed and state governments are culpable.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Uh, because they're better run than fed aged care. That's obvious, isn't it?

Now your turn. Why didn't every other state's fed run aged care experience hundreds of deaths like Victoria?

They were just casually run better than the other? Like comparing the bakery around the corner and the one up the road?

Nice down play Boris.

 

[Boristown]

They were just casually run better than the other? Like comparing the bakery around the corner and the one up the road?

Nice down play Boris.

I might have underplayed it, they're much better run. I guess it's like comparing every other state to Victoria's hotel quarantine.

 

[maddog37]

I might have underplayed it. I guess it's like comparing Victoria's hotel quarantine to every other state.

Come now Boristown, you know we only discuss Victoria in this thread!!!!!

No outside comparison allowed.

 

[maddog37]

Not sure, Maddog. Hasn’t been my decision though. Seems like this thread was started to discuss Victoria’s covid situation. Could be wrong though.

Seems like you and some others like to bring in the other states card because you refuse to acknowledge there’s a huge amount of responsibility that lies with the fed government.

Why is that Maddog? Why do you shy away from answering questions about the Feds involvement in all of this?

Much the same way you refuse to acknowledge any fault of our states leadership.

What I really want is for you to explain why only Victoria suffered so much and not the other states??

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Much the same way you refuse to acknowledge any fault of our states leadership.

What I really want is for you to explain why only Victoria suffered so much and not the other states??

I don’t refuse to acknowledge the faults of our state government.

They ****ed up. They made decisions that we later found out were the wrong ones. Why do the brain dead minority continue to need this explained to them?

Now, I’d ask you also to answer the questions i put to you Maddog but there’s been a few over the last week or so and you just run and hide so I’m not too hopeful.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

I might have underplayed it, they're much better run. I guess it's like comparing every other state to Victoria's hotel quarantine.

Still ignoring the Royal commission the federal government did nothing about.

Have to be a bit of a knucklehead to compare HQ to Feds inaction on aged care issues.

You aren’t a knucklehead are you Boris?

 

[Boristown]

You aren’t a knucklehead are you Boris?

I dunno mate, you're the expert.

 

[dogwatch]

Much the same way you refuse to acknowledge any fault of our states leadership.

What I really want is for you to explain why only Victoria suffered so much and not the other states??

It's a fair question. Off the top of my head and without all the facts at my disposal I'd hazard a guess as follows, in no special order:

• Poor historical management and defunding of the health system (multiple Vic governments) compared to other states which led to under-equipped public health response, especially contract tracing
• Cockup in hotel quarantine and chaotic controls in hotel security. (Funny how outsourcing and self-regulation features yet again!) I'm not entirely clear as to how NSW did their supervision but I think a lot of it was under direct police control.
• Poorly understood behaviour of the virus in the early months, and especially the ways it can be transmitted and what the best controls were. All states were in this position and all gradually improved over 2020. Vic was perhaps unfortunate to be hit relatively early in that process.
• Luck - always a factor. I think NSW got a bit lucky (plus some good tracing) with the Ruby Princess/Newmarch/other outbreaks. Luck was not so much a factor in other states except perhaps the ACT where I would have expected more cases due to the flow of diplomatic personnel (especially foreign ones who have diplomatic freedoms) into and out of the country. Fortunately all foreign diplomats who were infected when they arrived in the ACT appear to have done the right thing as I'm not aware of any community transmission arising from the handful of cases.
• More returning travellers - apart from NSW obviously. Naturally the greater the volume of returning travellers the greater the chance of something going wrong. Not sure how Vic compares to say Adelaide, Perth and Brisbane but I think Vic would have had many more returning travellers than NT, ACT and Tasmania. Anyone got the actual numbers?
• Once the virus HAD escaped any one of a number of scenarios could have eventuated but with R0=2.5 (or more) the numbers will follow more of a logarithmic progression than an arithmetic one. That's why straight comparison of overall case numbers is too simplistic and in isolation is not the best way to assess effectiveness. You're better off also looking at numbers of outbreaks and days duration of each outbreak IMO. Can anyone dig up that info? I'd be most interested to see it. Fortunately for us all (not just Victorians) it has come right back to near-elimination as a result of the painful and protracted but very necessary lockdown.

 

[The City Boyz]

Interesting listen this morning to coronacast. It’s all to do with the vaccine roll out and why we should follow the NZ model for vaccinating guards with the Pzifer vaccine, as it reduces transmission. Also the guards families and close contacts.... then use the other vaccines for ages care.
It all makes sense.

Coronacast with Tegan Taylor and Dr Norman Swan - ABC listen

Coronacast answers your questions about coronavirus. We break down the latest news and research to help you understand how the world is living through a pandemic.

abclisten.page.link

Also, Norman suggests that we get overseas Australians vaccinated with the pzifer vaccine, so that they can come home and not need to be quarantined in a hotel. Worth the listen.

By 89% as well. Unbelievable how good some of these vaccines are

 

[maddog37]

I don’t refuse to acknowledge the faults of our state government.

They f’ed up. They made decisions that we later found out were the wrong ones. Why do the brain dead minority continue to need this explained to them?

Now, I’d ask you also to answer the questions i put to you Maddog but there’s been a few over the last week or so and you just run and hide so I’m not too hopeful.

Are you calling me brain dead?