Review Round 1, 2021 - Brisbane Lions vs. Sydney

[bungalow_bill]

'Good teams don't do terrible'

Are you joking. Seen hundreds of terrible performance by good teams over the years . And great teams as well.

Every flag team has put in at least one terrible performance. The Tigers were thrashed by the Saints in 17 for example

 

[jonnobackpocket]

it wasn't tactics that sunk us it was a combination of some really serious problems. Basically that was the performance of a bottom four team......and why would next week or the week after be any different. We've got all the hallmarks of a team on the slide. our older players( zorks, Birch, robbo, Lyons, are rushing headlong into early retirement, our midrange players are solid citizens without being guns, and our younger brigade are a combination of brilliant, flukey, overated and just too young. for me, that's the makeup of a bottom four team that's over-achieved over the last 2 seasons. For the last 2 years they've played with a verve, cohesion and teamwork that belied their actual abilities. Thing is, you could see the rot set in in the Suns match the week before. It reminds me of the 2006 Lions. Sad

Bottom 4 - wouldn’t have thought so, was going to justify it but really not needed.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

You do realise Fagan himself said he's not a tactition and he's always the first person to say that his supporting coaching group are the reasons behind a lot of the success we had. So I guess you think Fagan is full of crap? If not, you're literally quoting nothing and you have gone way off topic. You decide which one it is mate. Either way, I'll be the bigger person and stop it here because I would prefer to remain on topic.

I didn’t quote anyone, I just read another completely irrational, delusional post from yourself and could not help but reply. I honestly hope you taking the piss otherwise it’s just plain weird.

 

[briztoon]

Last week's performance came down to one thing and that was attitude. After we kicked those few early goals, we seemed to get ahead of ourselves.

I wouldn't be hitting the panic button yet and I'm looking for a big reversal in attitude this weekend.

The midfield is the one area of our team that is lacking depth and IMO short of one elite player. I do think our midfield unit are more than capable of covering this with their attitude, which they were able to do for most of last season. Attitude drops and we can get exposed.

A couple of team changes won't make much of a difference to the result next week. It'll come down to the collective attitude of the group and I'm backing them rebound well.

I believe we’re short two elite mids. Rayner being one, to take over Zorko’s role.

We’re also missing a second elite inside mid. Either a big bodied Cripps type, or a second clearance specialist like Neale who can run both ways.

My hope is Deven Robertson is the later.

Right now, our midfield really does rely on Neale.

With age and injuries catching up with Zorko, and Rayner out for the year, if Neale doesn’t fire, I don’t believe the team that played on the weekend can win many games.

 

[beardancer]

I believe we’re short two elite mids. Rayner being one, to take over Zorko’s role.

We’re also missing a second elite inside mid. Either a big bodied Cripps type, or a second clearance specialist like Neale who can run both ways.

My hope is Deven Robertson is the later.

Right now, our midfield really does rely on Neale.

With age and injuries catching up with Zorko, and Rayner out for the year, if Neale doesn’t fire, I don’t believe the team that played on the weekend can win many games.

I agree, I'd love to see Deven get a chance.....the other guy I'm keen on is Tom Joyce. His Neafl games were interesting. He seems to be a real in and under type that has that uncanny knack of being where the ball is.

 

[beardancer]

Every flag team has put in at least one terrible performance. The Tigers were thrashed by the Saints in 17 for example

Ok but have the Tigers done that in the last 4 years?

 

[Gadzorks]

The newbies with us left before the end of the game. They only started coming last year and they haven't had a chance to build the resilience required to support a team over the long haul yet.

Might be a few round here with the same issue.

 

[SizeMatters]

I believe we’re short two elite mids. Rayner being one, to take over Zorko’s role.

We’re also missing a second elite inside mid. Either a big bodied Cripps type, or a second clearance specialist like Neale who can run both ways.

My hope is Deven Robertson is the later.

Right now, our midfield really does rely on Neale.

With age and injuries catching up with Zorko, and Rayner out for the year, if Neale doesn’t fire, I don’t believe the team that played on the weekend can win many games.

Bit over the top? zorko and Rayner are okay players. Zorko is on the down and Rayner is rising but neither are a graders that is the difference between a team that wont win many games and a premiership team. I agree that we need something else in our midfield Though. Another consistent balanced midfielder. I feel we have a team of front runners.

 

[briztoon]

A very disappointing match from us on the weekend and one which caused concern for many of us. It is not just that we lost but rather the way we lost. We were miles off the pace of the game, our structures both offensively and defensively were just not competitive and the effort just seemed not to be there.

Over the last couple of year every time we have moved Berry off the ball for long periods we have suffered for it. That was again the case on the weekend. Why? One reason is that he provides a big body but personally I think it is because he is one of the few mids that runs hard defensively. Last year he had Bailey running with him and between the two of them they papered over the cracks. On the weekend our midfield just did not work defensively (or offensively actually) and the Swans were swanning through the middle of the game without pressure above to pick out wide open targets.

Neale padded his stats in the last quarter when the game was gone but was absent of effort or impact the first three quarters. Lyons pretty much the same in the first half and his running generally was very very poor. Zorko actually put in an effort and got a bit of the ball but I would not start him onball at the clearances. I do not mind the frustrated frees he gave away in the last. He actually put in although I his defensive running was not top shelf. McCluggage had a poor game and apart from his 3 goals so did Bailey. Bailey looked great in the preseason but he had very little impact apart from the goals and gave away too many silly frees.

But the mids were not alone. The Swans got quite a lot of forward pressure on our backs. Where were our forwards? Again nowhere. Coleman was pretty much alone in working to actually put some pressure on. Charlie looks bigger and is a much slower and poorer runner and worse player because of it. He did not create separation offensively and put in no defensive effort. Our bigs thought there job was over once we no longer had the ball.

The Swans were severely outsized up forward in this game and our midfield became obsessed with bombing it long. This allowed the Swans to settle into a pattern and neutralise the threat. It was not conditions for overhead marking but we just kept bombing it time and again. None of our forwards got separation and none of our mids lowered their eyes.

The backs were exposed because of the lack of pressure upfield. We have a relatively slow backline and when there is time and space to work in they can be found out. Generally we do not have a good one on one defensive unit. Payne was the newbie but got found out with guys being able to lead into acres of space in front of him. Andrews actually had to do a job and was not able to influence the game as he usually does. Birchall is a liability defensively and his work going forward was ordinary. Ah Chee gave us nothing both offensively and defensively. Starcevich was much the same and a couple of times handed over his man to poor old Payne in bad situations (see the Heeney goal). Rich is better when he can play loose on a nonthreat but he was caught out several times on the weekend.

Oscar was convincingly beaten on the day but his stats were not bad. He just did not have the game that Hickey did. Oscar has games where he just loses his positioning and he learns quickly and makes adjustment. Hopefully he does that. I don't think he is ever going to be a dominant ruck but I do think he can break even.

Quite a few are calling for Sharp to be dropped. Personally I hope he gets another game. He was good in the first quarter but rarely sighted after that. When we went behind I think the focus went onto getting our bigger names into more prominent positions and that did not work very well. One of the huge things to come out of that game was our lack of run. Dropping out best runner seems counterintuitive. The coaching staff just need to use him better and show him what to do. Personally I give him another game this week and get him to shadow Isaac Smith, neutralise him and work him hard the other way when we get the ball. Go head to head and let him learn that way.

A couple of observations on Sharp from the weekend.

He really does have a lovely running action.

He’s also easily pushed off and out bodied by his opponents. This was really noticeable. Often his opponent concentrated on outbodying him first, before going for the ball. And at this stage, Sharp doesn’t have the weight or core strength to fight through the body on body contact.

He’s fast, but he doesn’t have Bailey’s break away type speed, nor does he have Bradley Hill type speed when up and running.

He’s fast, but I don’t believe he’ll out pace to many AFL wingers.

Nor does our style of play suit genuine wingers, even on the fat side of the ground. I’m not sure he’ll get to use his superior stamina to outrun opponents late in quarters or games.

In the second half, he was moved forward a few times, as Fagan looked for different midfield combinations

 

[briztoon]

Bit over the top? zorko and Rayner are okay players. Zorko is on the down and Rayner is rising but neither are a graders that is the difference between a team that wont win many games and a premiership team. I agree that we need something else in our midfield Though. Another consistent balanced midfielder. I feel we have a team of front runners.

I’m not sure of your point, which part is over the top?

I’ve never really felt that we’re a premiership team. More a team missing two or three players from being a premiership team.

We can get close, but we’re just a rung short on the ladder.

And unless Hayden Young and Clayton Oliver decide to join us next year, I don’t see us having that team in place before Neale starts to decline.


My gut feel was that Rayner was going to have a “nearly” year this year, and next year we would see a Petracca 2020 type year from him.

Yeah, Zorko is on the decline, and I won’t be surprised if this is his last year

 

[dlanod]

Ok but have the Tigers done that in the last 4 years?

No brainer to check but since you're being lazy.

• They lost to a non-finals team last year by more than we lost to Sydney in shorter quarters.
• They lost six games in 2019 by more than five goals, including two by about eight goals and one by eleven. Two of these were to non-finals teams.
• They didn't win the premiership in 2018 but still had two bigger regular season losses than what we just experienced, including one to a non-finals team.

So yes. Every team since the 2000 Bombers has had bad losses.

 

[Dalions]

Ok but have the Tigers done that in the last 4 years?

Tigers were pretty much thrashed by the Saints again last year in Round 4.
93 - 67 in a shortened format of the game.
Tigers obviously fell apart defensively in that game to allow 93 points in a game last year.
All things considered probably pretty similar to our performance on the weekend.

 

[BRAB]

Tigers were pretty much thrashed by the Saints again last year in Round 4.
93 - 67 in a shortened format of the game.
Tigers obviously fell apart defensively in that game to allow 93 points in a game last year.
All things considered probably pretty similar to our performance on the weekend.

Richmond had a pretty bad start to the year last year. Some people were even saying the dynasty was over, Jack should retire, dusty wasn't interested.

A lot can change in a season.

 

[dlanod]

Richmond had a pretty bad start to the year last year. Some people were even saying the dynasty was over, Jack should retire, dusty wasn't interested.

A lot can change in a season.

IMO Jack should retire, Dusty should immigrate to NZ, and Tom Lynch should spent the rest of his life playing for a club competing for 17th.

But that's just me.

 

[jackess]

I think our midfield is pretty even with Richmonds. Obviously we don’t have a Dusty but apart from that we’re pretty evenly matched.

Martin = Zorko?
Prestia = Neale
Cotchin = Lyons
Bolton = Rayner
Edwards = Bailey
McIntosh = Robinson
Lambert = McCluggage
Graham = Berry

 

[T Rick]

nah, seriously comrade, we were terrible and good teams don't do terrible. We've played with great spirit for 2 years but it looked like the spirit and sense of team just evaporated in the last couple of weeks. That defeat was way more consequential than you seem to think

You mean like our loss to Hawthorn in Round 1 last year?

 

[M Malice]

I think our midfield is pretty even with Richmonds. Obviously we don’t have a Dusty but apart from that we’re pretty evenly matched.

Martin = Zorko?
Prestia = Neale
Cotchin = Lyons
Bolton = Rayner
Edwards = Bailey
McIntosh = Robinson
Lambert = McCluggage
Graham = Berry

I agree as a group it looks reasonably even although the Tigers look to have a bit more leg speed and a better 2 way running group(apart from Dusty) + none of our players can match Dusty as a game breaker.

Ages in brackets, we arguably have the better younger mid brigade although I am a big fan of Shai Bolton's game, as everyone keeps saying we are short a midfielder or 2. Robinson replaceable, Zorko being phased out of the mids, hopefully someone can step up into his slot, Neale and Lyons both have at least 3 years of top level footy in them.

Edwards(32) - Zorko(32)
Cotchin(30) - Robinson(31)
Martin(29) - Lyons(28)
Lambert(29) - Neale(27)
Prestia(28) - McCluggage(23)
McIntosh(26) - Berry(23)
Graham(23) - Rayner(21)
Bolton(22) - Bailey(21)

 

[Quigley]

A couple of observations on Sharp from the weekend.

He really does have a lovely running action.

He’s also easily pushed off and out bodied by his opponents. This was really noticeable. Often his opponent concentrated on outbodying him first, before going for the ball. And at this stage, Sharp doesn’t have the weight or core strength to fight through the body on body contact.

He’s fast, but he doesn’t have Bailey’s break away type speed, nor does he have Bradley Hill type speed when up and running.

He’s fast, but I don’t believe he’ll out pace to many AFL wingers.

Nor does our style of play suit genuine wingers, even on the fat side of the ground. I’m not sure he’ll get to use his superior stamina to outrun opponents late in quarters or games.

In the second half, he was moved forward a few times, as Fagan looked for different midfield combinations

I agree with most of that but disagree on a couple of points.

On speed Sharp does not have the burst that others have but he has a very high cruising speed and once he is up and going if someone does not get him in the first 10m or so they are not catching him. A few times on the weekend guys he was running and opponents had the angles on him but he just ran around them. I agree that he will not burst away from a player but I don't see many keeping up with him once they are up and going.

I disagree on him being easily pushed off. He did get a couple of shoves and a couple of offbalance bumps which moved him out of the way but virtually all the time he was able to keep his feet. I actually think he is very balanced and quite strong for his size. He will need to adjust to the bigger bodies but overall I don't have a concern in that area. It is not like he is going to ground easily and not keeping his feet. As he develops I think he will actually be very difficult to move off the ball.

I absolutely agree that our game style does not suit wingers or runners in whatever party of the ground they are playing.

 

[martinson]

No brainer to check but since you're being lazy.

• They lost to a non-finals team last year by more than we lost to Sydney in shorter quarters.
• They lost six games in 2019 by more than five goals, including two by about eight goals and one by eleven. Two of these were to non-finals teams.
• They didn't win the premiership in 2018 but still had two bigger regular season losses than what we just experienced, including one to a non-finals team.

So yes. Every team since the 2000 Bombers has had bad losses.

I remember walking out of Princes Park across the road to the tram with lots of other Lions supporters after round 8 in 2001 where we'd been decimated by 12 goals and the general consensus was we'd be lucky to win another game that year. We were sitting well down the ladder as well . We went on to win the flag convincingly.

So great teams have terrible games.

 

[martinson]

I agree with most of that but disagree on a couple of points.

On speed Sharp does not have the burst that others have but he has a very high cruising speed and once he is up and going if someone does not get him in the first 10m or so they are not catching him. A few times on the weekend guys he was running and opponents had the angles on him but he just ran around them. I agree that he will not burst away from a player but I don't see many keeping up with him once they are up and going.

I disagree on him being easily pushed off. He did get a couple of shoves and a couple of offbalance bumps which moved him out of the way but virtually all the time he was able to keep his feet. I actually think he is very balanced and quite strong for his size. He will need to adjust to the bigger bodies but overall I don't have a concern in that area. It is not like he is going to ground easily and not keeping his feet. As he develops I think he will actually be very difficult to move off the ball.

I absolutely agree that our game style does not suit wingers or runners in whatever party of the ground they are playing.

At 17 and in his first game I think he showed more than enough promise. Whether he can improve enough to help us this year is questionable but he has natural gifts.

 

[LongLion]

I agree with most of that but disagree on a couple of points.

On speed Sharp does not have the burst that others have but he has a very high cruising speed and once he is up and going if someone does not get him in the first 10m or so they are not catching him. A few times on the weekend guys he was running and opponents had the angles on him but he just ran around them. I agree that he will not burst away from a player but I don't see many keeping up with him once they are up and going.

I disagree on him being easily pushed off. He did get a couple of shoves and a couple of offbalance bumps which moved him out of the way but virtually all the time he was able to keep his feet. I actually think he is very balanced and quite strong for his size. He will need to adjust to the bigger bodies but overall I don't have a concern in that area. It is not like he is going to ground easily and not keeping his feet. As he develops I think he will actually be very difficult to move off the ball.

I absolutely agree that our game style does not suit wingers or runners in whatever party of the ground they are playing.

I also noted how well he kept his feet. Good core strength

 

[beardancer]

No brainer to check but since you're being lazy.

• They lost to a non-finals team last year by more than we lost to Sydney in shorter quarters.
• They lost six games in 2019 by more than five goals, including two by about eight goals and one by eleven. Two of these were to non-finals teams.
• They didn't win the premiership in 2018 but still had two bigger regular season losses than what we just experienced, including one to a non-finals team.

So yes. Every team since the 2000 Bombers has had bad losses.

maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. Im not saying teams won't have defeats over their lives but its the nature of our loss that really bothers me. I'm amazed by Hickey murdering bigO.......Lyons looking like he's never even played the game before, Clugga looking slow and in a fog, Charlie looking timid, Harris looked like he'd gone backwards...etc. It's the nature of our defeat that's galling. In reality, that could have been a 70 point defeat.

 

[T Rick]

At 17 and in his first game I think he showed more than enough promise. Whether he can improve enough to help us this year is questionable but he has natural gifts.

Sharp is 18 - dob 17/12/2002

 

[jackess]

maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. Im not saying teams won't have defeats over their lives but its the nature of our loss that really bothers me. I'm amazed by Hickey murdering bigO.......Lyons looking like he's never even played the game before, Clugga looking slow and in a fog, Charlie looking timid, Harris looked like he'd gone backwards...etc. It's the nature of our defeat that's galling. In reality, that could have been a 70 point defeat.

Maybe the fact we played that poorly and didn't lose by 70 shows that we still have a lot left in the tank

 

[briztoon]

At 17 and in his first game I think he showed more than enough promise. Whether he can improve enough to help us this year is questionable but he has natural gifts.

I’m not nit picking, but he turned 18 last December.