Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2
- Status
No worries Roy
So he says that the Christians from 33 AD to 65 AD were living the fantasy and Mark’s account is in accordance with that ?
Just like some of my students.
I’ve taken you on a wonderful journey though Roy. I’m quite proud how I took from a card carrying “ Jesus never existed “ “ Kook card carrying imbecile “ to look at you now .
For a home economics teacher from Yass you have done well.
- Jun 14, 2013
- 13,076
- 15,680
- AFL Club
- Essendon
The church teaching that it's a virtue to believe in things that have no evidence is counterintuitive.
- Moderator
- #13,980
Read it again and make your own conclusion.
- Moderator
- #13,981
Thanks Gary. If you say so. As I’ve always said the Jesus of the Gospels is a literary / theological invention. The evidence for that is quite clear. The Resurrection clearly didn’t happen.
- Jun 14, 2013
- 13,076
- 15,680
- AFL Club
- Essendon
We certainly don't have democracy, gay marriage, and abortion because of Jesus.
But may your days of writing to the crowd and starting your spiels with “a man named Jesus may have existed ...There were many people called Jesus””. ... be well and truly over
Now we have you discussing the behaviour of 33 AD Christians. Quite refreshing.
- Jun 14, 2013
- 13,076
- 15,680
- AFL Club
- Essendon
Boston tiger now that you've ducked and weaved for several pages, how about showing us some of the evidence for Christianity.
TheGreatBarryB
Hall of Famer
Important thing here is that the big fella upstairs would’ve taken notice of BT’s staunch insult laden defence of him on here against the heathen mob and has reserved prime place for him in noddyland
- Jun 14, 2013
- 13,076
- 15,680
- AFL Club
- Essendon
"Anyone who defends Jesus on bigfooty gets a penthouse suite in the afterlife." Revelations 23:1
- Moderator
- #13,987
I haven't changed my opinion even though you seem to think for some obscure reason you have.
A Yeshua ben-Yosef in Roman Judea who was some sort of seer / teacher very possibly lived sometime in Roman Judea before AD 40 and was perhaps was arrested for blasphemy and sedition, and was subsequently executed. However his actions and deeds as outlined in the Gospels are essentially literary (essentially fiction) and have either been adapted by the writers of the Gospels using the deeds of other Messiah like figures, some named similarly to Yeshua around at the time (and we know they were), and/or have been constructed to fulfill Jewish prophecy and/or have been constructed from pagan mythologies in order to appeal to new converts. These may include:
Simon bar-Giora - a messianic pretender. The forces of John of Giscala had occupied the temple (which became a "den of thieves"). They were implacable enemies of the priests, who were seen as lapdogs of the hated Romans. So the priests struck a bargain with Simon bar-Giora to enter the temple to expel their rival revolutionaries. Simon and his troops make a triumphal entry into the city, were hailed as deliverers, and proceeded to "cleanse the temple" of the robbers who infest it. Sound familar? But the Roman siege eventually forced Simon to try and tunnel out to safety. Giving up on the plan, he tunneled up, bursting out of the earth in full regalia of a Judean king before stunned Romans, who then take him to Rome and execute him as King of the Jews.
Jesus ben Pandira. A supposed wonder-worker during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus (106-79 B.C.) who preached end-time prophesy and agitation. One scholar has identified the name Pandira as having an Egyptian origin and is written 'Pa-neter-ra', translated as the 'Son of Ra'. Perhaps this is the origin of the stories that the Holy Family spent some time in Egypt after fleeing from Herod.
As I've said, Celsus (c. AD 180 CE) is said to have argued that Jesus was the bastard son of a woman called Mary and a Roman soldier named Panthera, used magic to deceive people into believing he was the son of a god, and there was no real difference between Christianity and many of the mystery religions existing at that time and some of the elements (such as the resurrection and virgin birth) could be found in older myths.
"It is clear to me that the writings of the Christians are a lie and that your fables are not well enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction."
Jesus Ben Stada - a Judean agitator who gave the Romans a headache in the early years of the second century AD. He met his end in the town of Lydda (twenty five miles from Jerusalem) at the hands of a Roman crucifixion crew, in fact he is descrbed as being 'hung on a tree', on the eve of a Passover. The rabbis who constructed the Babylonian Talmud believed that it was ben Stada who was elevated by the Christians to that of a godhead, but still confuse him with another Jesus ben Pandira.
Other messianic pretenders / self styled prophets / Kings of the Jews in the first century AD including:
- Carabbas
- Theudas the Galilean
- Judas the Galilean
- Jesus bar-Abbas (possibly the Barabbas of the Gospels)
- Elymas bar-Jesus
- Jesus Justus (claimed by one scholar to be the son of Jesus Christ)
- the martyred Samaritan Messiah.
The process of accumulation of deeds and stories and attached to a particular person is a common one, most easily compared to the King Arthur cycle (he who sleeps only and will return at the hour of greatest need for Britain).
Littleton and Malcor suggest that the real Arthur was a Sarmatian. Geoffrey Ashe, an expert on Arthurian matters identifies Arthur with Riothamus and locates Avalon in Gaul. The Arthurian legends have traditionally had a strong link with Brittany, as the Breton chieftain Marcus Conomorus has been identified with the Arthurian Mark of Cornwall. Graham Phillips and Martin Keatman argue that he was Owain Ddantgwyn, King of Rhos (Gwynedd). Michael Wood proposes that the real Arthur was Artur Mac Aidan, a war leader of the Scots and Brythons. John Darrah and Arthur Cummins propose a Arthur who lived in the Bronze Age, circa 2300 BC. Others argue that Arthur had no historical existence, explaining that he originally was a half-forgotten Celtic deity that devolved into a personage such like Beowulf.
To give you an example that migth be compared the Jesus stories Artur MacAidan was the son (or perhaps grandson) of Aidan macGabrain, a Highlander of Irish descent and whose many battles may have been the source of Arthur's mythical father Uther Pendragon. In many ways, Artur MacAidan's known life mirrored the ‘King’ Arthur – both Christian warriors who died in battle.
David Carroll, whose work "Arturius - The Quest for Camelot" is available on the web, suggests that:
- No early document describes Arthur as "King'" but rather as "Dux Bellorum,'" a Latin word meaning military commander-in-chief.
- Exaclibur may be derived from a Galei word meaning 'swordpoint.
- A 7th-century Scottish history mentions Arturius, son of King Aidan.
- An 8th-century history describes Arthur as a warrior in the region of Manau Gododdin.
- Camelot is an old Roman Fortress in the area that Artur McAiden frequented once called Antonine Vallum and which locals called Camelon or Camelot.
- The Battle of Camlaan (Camallan), where Arthur and Mordred killed each other, has a controversial location and date. Camlaan may have been the crooked Allan River in Scotland. (Camallan means "crooked Allan''). That river had an island with the name of Invalon ("Avalon perhaps" ?). The battle's date may have been 582 A.D., the date of the historic Battle of Manau where Scottish history shows Arturius dying....the generally accepted date for Artur of Dalriada's death is in the 590's
- There is a "Round Table'' in Stirling, Scotland. (Today it is called King's Knot.)
He suggests the similarity in the lives of the two Arthurs, may have been confused deliberately to help spread Christianity through the fame of long-dead kings, and of course by Geoffrey of Monmouth. He also suggests that St. Columba appears in history to be both the prophet and the power behind the throne of Dalriada, perhaps mirrored in the fictional Merlin.
In fact Carroll's so confident about his thesis above, he's bet 1,000 pounds for anyone to prove him wrong.
The growth of these stories in a similar way to the Arthur stories is very clear from Mark --> Matthew --> Luke and even onto John (although that gospel is different in style to the Synoptic Gospels).
You need to read my posts more thoroughly and perhaps go back before you joined. I've discussed this many times before.
Last edited:
mcnulty
Norm Smith Medallist
- Sep 18, 2019
- 6,374
- 9,383
- AFL Club
- Hawthorn
- Banned
- #13,988
I’ve got a question! If there is a hell for those who transgress against god, wouldn’t Satan, as gods sworn enemy, welcome such people? Dante and the like will have you believe they are tortured for eternity, but why would the hell would hell do that? Surely they’d be rewarded down there. With gambling, cocaine, hookers etc
Last edited:
- Jun 14, 2013
- 13,076
- 15,680
- AFL Club
- Essendon
Can confirm. I am Satan.
Hookers, blow, and Essendon wins await all who venture down to Hell.
- Jul 5, 2012
- 24,745
- 40,163
- AFL Club
- Sydney
- Other Teams
- Kidding, right?
Don’t mention it Roy.
- Jul 5, 2012
- 24,745
- 40,163
- AFL Club
- Sydney
- Other Teams
- Kidding, right?
Yep the whole good guy vs bad guy paradigm is on the level of a children’s pantomime.
samoodan
Cancelled
- Nov 4, 2020
- 254
- 320
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried and were rescued;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
8 “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
10 On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near,
and there is none to help.
12 Many bulls encompass me;
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet —
17 I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But you, O Lord, do not be far off!
O you my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen!
22 I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted,
and he has not hidden his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.
25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will perform before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the Lord!
May your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
28 For kingship belongs to the Lord,
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
even the one who could not keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him;
it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn, that he has done it.
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried and were rescued;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
8 “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
10 On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near,
and there is none to help.
12 Many bulls encompass me;
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet —
17 I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But you, O Lord, do not be far off!
O you my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen!
22 I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted,
and he has not hidden his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.
25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will perform before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the Lord!
May your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
28 For kingship belongs to the Lord,
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
even the one who could not keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him;
it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn, that he has done it.
- Jul 5, 2012
- 24,745
- 40,163
- AFL Club
- Sydney
- Other Teams
- Kidding, right?
Yes, of course. We know that by his early thirties, Christ's foreskin, his shedded hair and skin, any digits he'd lost through life etc would all have completely decomposed or close to it, because we know that from science.
So if you respect science and observable fact as much you appear to, why did you not invoke science the instant I first mentioned Christ's ascension?
You agree that Christ's foreskin would have decomposed. But you seem untroubled scientifically by the claim that his entire body whooshed up into the clouds, which surely is the far bigger issue here. I don't care one jot about what happened to his foreskin.
- Jun 14, 2013
- 13,076
- 15,680
- AFL Club
- Essendon
Why do your thoughts contain intermittent numbers? It's most likely a sign of mental illness.
- Jun 14, 2013
- 13,076
- 15,680
- AFL Club
- Essendon
If the Christian god was real, any AFL player who tried to move from Essendon to Carlton would be struck down with lightning.
The fact that Saad is still alive might just be evidence that Islam is true.
Virgins included? i assume OT and Islam are in agreement about virgins being precious.
Sorry, I think you've got that bit wrong. According to mainstream theology Hell is the place where Satan and evil doers will be cast after the last judgement. The place is empty right now, pending God's final defeat of Satan. Satan is currently free amd roaming this little blue planet.
- Jun 14, 2013
- 13,076
- 15,680
- AFL Club
- Essendon
Virgins are the steak knives of religion. If you buy our afterlife for $29.95, we'll throw in a set of virgins for free.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
