Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

The problem is that with Newman and Marchbank still injured, and Parks a little underdone, who takes SPS' spot in defence?

Cottrell screams defender to me.
He may butcher it from time to time, but so does SPS.
However you will get 110% commitment from Cottrell

 

[CJMB]

The Brisbane vs Collingwood game this week has been changed from Brisbane to Melbourne due to COVID. There has now been community transmission of COVID detected in Gold Coast and we are scheduled to be playing away there in Rd 4 on the Saturday. This could possibly mean the game gets swapped to a home game for us similar to what has happened with Collingwood. The only issue is that on the Saturday in question there is already a match at Marvel between St Kilda and West Coast and there's a match at the MCG between Collingwood and GWS, and the next day on Sunday Marvel is again being used by North and Adelaide and the G by Melbourne vs Geelong. Could this possibly force us into using Princes Park for one final time in the H&A season? 75% capacity of the 25,000 would leave about 18,750 tickets which is probably only a few thousand shy of what we'd have pulled at Marvel anyway. Sure the stadium itself isn't at the best standard, but it's been good for AFLW and this would just be a one-off instance forced by the COVID circumstances. It would give us a good home-ground advantage in a crucial game too.

Probably more likely to get St Kilda and West Coast to play at Optus, they've got another match against each other near the end of the season which could be flipped to even it up, which would free up a slot at Marvel which is where we're scheduled to play GCS later in the year.

 

[agro]

A pic a neighbour shared with me that I thought our 'older' faithful would appreciate.
My neighbour is approaching 90 and fresh out from Ireland in 1957 he did not even know what a footy trip was but being popular and a non-drinker, he was recruited to be a driver on the Maryborough 1957 footy trip
The pic is not all that clear but I think most will recognize the guy on the end

View attachment 1089351

He’s “the fat one”

 

[forever blue 1]

The thing that worries me is the fact that changes in structure usually take a whole pre-season to install and fine tune.
Either a) the system we have is rubbish (my guess) or b) the players aren’t following the game plan.
If it’s a), it will take most of the season to change it.
If it’s b), examples need to be made of those who can’t or won’t follow the gameplan.
And realistically, if it is a), questions need to be asked of the entire coaching staff.

If you say or think that it will take most of the season to change the system, then none of them are AFL players. 2 weeks would be max. In my opinion.

 

[El Topo]

Murph aside, our pre-Bolton senior players have always been a problem, and the fact that we still rely on them is a huge worry. Ed, Levi and Jones hitting the wall around the same time was always on the cards - could stuff our season in the short term, but an opportunity for renewal if managed well

 

[Own The Future]

If you say or think that it will take most of the season to change the system, then none of them are AFL players. 2 weeks would be max. In my opinion.

If we’re talking about about a full overhaul of the defensive structure, it would be very hard to change and implement mid-season.
Small tweaks, absolutely.
For us I feel it’s a combination of effort and system.
Our guys need a rocket to prioritise two way running, but to my eye it is systematic that the team are intentionally corralling rather than chasing. I don’t want to be a broken record about this, but I’m certain our opponents are planning for this defensive approach. They’re taking their time, knowing full well that our guys won’t come at them, will sit off and stall them. Opponents are licking their lips, waiting for the receiver to get free and we are killed on the burst.
When we see Saad and Fogarty chase down and tackle it is frankly shocking, as our guys don’t do it.
I’m no expert, but I doubt this is a choice from the players. Their instinct would be to tackle the man with the ball, but we are trying to outsmart the game by - to use a basketball term - “playing the passing lanes” rather than attacking the man with possession.
Much smarter footy brains will articulate it better than me, but if we want to do a 180 on this system it won’t be implemented in 2 weeks.

 

[BigFrizz36]

why am I going to the game on sunday again?

Because we are going to win. Clearly. And even if not, real supporters get behind the team particularly when things get a bit tough. Fake supporters vent on this site.

 

[Yubby]

Simply doing the KMs doesn't mean much in the end. How much of that was at high speed/intensity vs jogging around. How much was when chasing a man, applying pressure or running hard in support in attack? That's where effort really shows, at this level anyone can jog around a field ticking up kms.

I decided to look up the numbers to see how we did in those areas and interestingly we did ok in sprints and repeat sprints, and more interestingly Dow was one of the top guys in average speed, repeat sprints and attacking/defensive work rates (average speed in attack & defense). So he's putting in the effort just not getting the rewards.

We ran 6km total more than Collingwood and 1.5km more at high speed.

However where a noticable difference occurs is in attack we averaged 7.7 km/h, Collingwood 6.8km/h, however it defense we averaged 6.9km/h and Collingwood 7.5km/h. The top 5 average speeds in attack were all Carlton, the top 5 speeds in Defence were all Collingwood except 1, Paddy Dow.

That's where it was noticable imo, Collingwood defensive pressure compared to ours was light years apart. That to me is Teagues gameplan as he's made no secret about wanting to play very fast attacking football.

I went into that thinking the effort was the issue, but the numbers reflect the messaging Teague has been giving out. The attacking workrate is there, but the defensive effort isn't and that was blatantly obvious on field the way the Pies sliced through us time after time after time.

Perhaps Arr0w is on to something with it being the coaching philosophy and not all effort. The effort seems to be going into the things Teague often emphasises; attack.

Where did you get the data from Coops?

 

[Coops93]

Where did you get the data from Coops?

It's on the AFL app, you can find it if you go into a game and go to tracker. Fair few numbers in there.

 

[forever blue 1]

If we’re talking about about a full overhaul of the defensive structure, it would be very hard to change and implement mid-season.
Small tweaks, absolutely.
For us I feel it’s a combination of effort and system.
Our guys need a rocket to prioritise two way running, but to my eye it is systematic that the team are intentionally corralling rather than chasing. I don’t want to be a broken record about this, but I’m certain our opponents are planning for this defensive approach. They’re taking their time, knowing full well that our guys won’t come at them, will sit off and stall them. Opponents are licking their lips, waiting for the receiver to get free and we are killed on the burst.
When we see Saad and Fogarty chase down and tackle it is frankly shocking, as our guys don’t do it.
I’m no expert, but I doubt this is a choice from the players. Their instinct would be to tackle the man with the ball, but we are trying to outsmart the game by - to use a basketball term - “playing the passing lanes” rather than attacking the man with possession.
Much smarter footy brains will articulate it better than me, but if we want to do a 180 on this system it won’t be implemented in 2 weeks.

John Longmire tips his hat

 

[RedFury]

I've been saying it for a couple of seasons, but our most experienced player in Murphy leads the way on this.
Offers zero, zilch, nada, SFA defensively, and imo, it permeates through the whole group.
We will not progress until this is addressed, ie, he is dropped

Yep - I mean he can't defend. I keep watching the footage of Adelaide & Nicks telling his team straight up - "If you can't or don't want to defend, pack your bag, there's the door - you can't play".

Can you imagine we're in any sort of position to say this to our playing group with Murphy out there every week? How could the younger players take it seriously?

And none of this is having a go at Murph - he's given everything he's got for this club for a long time but his body is shot.

Honest question for people, and it sounds rhetorical but I'm genuinely interested in people's take. With today's emphasis on defensive pressure, how many other clubs would be giving Murphy a game? I'm sure the answer would not be 0, but I doubt any of the successful or really well-run clubs would be.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Yep - I mean he can't defend. I keep watching the footage of Adelaide & Nicks telling his team straight up - "If you can't or don't want to defend, pack your bag, there's the door - you can't play".

Can you imagine we're in any sort of position to say this to our playing group with Murphy out there every week? How could the younger players take it seriously?

And none of this is having a go at Murph - he's given everything he's got for this club for a long time but his body is shot.

Honest question for people, and it sounds rhetorical but I'm genuinely interested in people's take. With today's emphasis on defensive pressure, how many other clubs would be giving Murphy a game? I'm sure the answer would not be 0, but I doubt any of the successful or really well-run clubs would be.

He'd slot in at a lot of the successful clubs simply because they can carry a player or two who aren't the best tacklers or most committed defensive runners because their systems and other players more than make up for it. Murph would probably look fantastic delivering to Lynch and Reiwoldt and playing a handball in front of stoppages receiving from edwards and cotchin. His bad side is just made so much more painfully obvious in a team that plays the way we do.

 

[RedFury]

He'd slot in at a lot of the successful clubs simply because they can carry a player or two who aren't the best tacklers or most committed defensive runners because their systems and other players more than make up for it. Murph would probably look fantastic delivering to Lynch and Reiwoldt and playing a handball in front of stoppages receiving from edwards and cotchin. His bad side is just made so much more painfully obvious in a team that plays the way we do.

Yeah can't fault that - I probably got it the wrong way around - more likely to get a game in a better side that can cover for him and allow his good side to shine. It's probably the lesser and more middle-of-the-road teams like us that can't really afford to carry a player like that.

However, with those successful clubs, I think the selection would be based on genuine value-added, not because there was some promise to get him to 300 (acknowledging that we don't actually know that's 100% true.)

 

[The Coach]

He’s “the fat one”

Pleeez, Big Nic - never Fat Nic

 

[agro]

Pleeez, Big Nic - never Fat Nic

I was alluding to a reference in his autobiography “Big Nick”- on his recruitment, the Club were actually chasing his brother Don’s signature and the boys father was adamant that Don wasn’t going to sign unless the club signed John as well - and the comment was made by our recruiter (can’t recall if it was Newton Chandler or Bert Deacon) I guess we’ll have to take the fat one.

Lucky they did!!

 

[BigBreakfast]

If we’re talking about about a full overhaul of the defensive structure, it would be very hard to change and implement mid-season.
Small tweaks, absolutely.

Much smarter footy brains will articulate it better than me, but if we want to do a 180 on this system it won’t be implemented in 2 weeks.

Sydney started retooling significantly in the second half of last season, working towards a much more aggressive, attacking style, planning (and hoping) it would come off this year. They also knew they had Campbell and Gulden coming in and some handy returns from injury to improve their capacity to move the ball quickly.

We are not in that position yet, we may be soon though. We clearly missed the boat in building a contested side, added some speed to complement opens up the chance to build a speedy disposal unit into 2022.

 

[DangerousD]

Please do not compare our first year pick ups to Sydney academy kids, they are so far ahead of us in development that there is no comparison, the only kid I would throw in at the moment is Parks as he has play league level and is ex Sydney academy.


The Academy has more than 100 coaches and conditioning staff who train players at the 10 locations in regional NSW and Sydney metro.

The Academy program runs for 22 weeks every year, over three terms from February to September. In the older age groups
, from U16 to U19, players train for 30 weeks a year as they also complete a pre-season program.

The Academy program involves a number of weekly sessions, which give players of all ages a mix of skill development, fitness training and high-level competition.
Our confidence is down which is a hard time to throw younger players in.

Do we have the players to win this week, yes, do we have the MC and coaches to pick the best team and place them in their most damaging positions, on what I have seen the last two weeks, no.

If Ed plays, he goes to Mundy, If Setters plays he goes to the middle, bring Cunningham in for midfield/ forward role or sign his papers, Parkes in for Plow or Williamson, or send a rocket up both. Levi, if he can't do what he is meant to, including kicking goals from 30 out, out he goes as well. Jones needs a rev up, Macdonald in. Time for Eddie Betts to shine or he can be a mentor for VFL for the year. Cripps, if he is not right, don't #$%@^&& play him.

All I'm hearing about is depth, but we are in a hole and trying to dig our way out.

And that's my positives out of the way

Interesting points about the academies, but I feel you might be overstating the benefits in a few of those points. All of the kids who play in the championships, TAC cup, school footy have a lot of time and resources pumped in to them, they train and play most of the year.

That being said, I’m surprised that the Swans and other clubs academies aren’t included in the soft cap, I actually support the use of academies but I would have thought if it’s exempt from the soft cap, it would go against the whole reason it was brought in.

Lastly, how dumb are the other 17 clubs recruiters? How is Gulden going in the 30s?

 

[agro]

It would be nice to put away a game occasionally early in the last quarter - it’s been a very long time since we’ve managed that.

 

[The Bighouse]

It would be nice to put away a game occasionally early in the last quarter - it’s been a very long time since we’ve managed that.

I was thinking that recently, we go about it the hard way in securing a win. Usually need to scrap back.
Bulldogs & GCFC last season are about it.

 

[Stiffler's Dad]

Because we are going to win. Clearly. And even if not, real supporters get behind the team particularly when things get a bit tough. Fake supporters vent on this site.

Biggest lot of crap I've ever read.
My blood boils when I read where people have shots at others for not being real supporters (fake in this case) or not Carlton enough or say go support someone else - strong unfounded and insulting accusations and demands made by total strangers!

Supporters aren't stupid and they have the right to be angry and they have the right to question things within the club, especially over such a long drought that has had so many moving parts so to speak....and no joy for us supporters.

Things have been between a bit tough and a hell of a lot tough for 20 years now BigFrizz36.
I've been venting on this site and those that came before it for about the same period of time.

Without the Carlton community on this site I think I might have fallen on some cold dark times. I am on this site multiple times nearly every day of the year....like most of you I'm sure.

Fake I am not!

50 plus years of bleading blue...tick

Loyal to the bone I am.

I'm sick of mediocrity.

I'm sick of knowing we don't have a 50 % chance of winning each week.

I'm sick of injuries year in year out.

I'm sick of blokes getting games just on their names...play some more kids.

I'm sick of blokes being played out of position to suit agendas.

I'm sick of blokes playing injured or returning too soon from injury.

I'm sick of being the butt of other supporters jokes....they are in full flight!

I have enough other real s**t in my life to worry about. Carlton used to give my life some happiness, balance and zip. I'm getting on in life now and I want some of that back. 20 years has been a long time. Honk your horn if you agree!

 

[JustaBattler]

Just some thoughts on Blue Pulse 's commentary on academies

AFL is a game for smaller bodied faster runner or tall KPP types who are fast runners - it has stopped being a game for all body types. The typical AFL teen in NSW isnt big enough, strong enough to play rugby code and isnt skilled enough to have a chance to make it in soccer. There are no schoolboy heroes playing AFL. The best comparison that can be made is Melbourne Storm - where are they going to source local talented kids in Melb?

So the academies are a brilliant initiative in trying to make a space for kids interested in AFL a place where they can focus on what it takes to make it as a potential AFL player. There is no 'magic' in the occassioonal excellent draftee from academies - it is just law of large numbers in operaration and a lot of hard work from young boys and whatever assistance they can get from AFL enthiusiasts volunteering to coach.

Once selected into AFL - there is no doubt that Sydney is one of the better development Clubs. They have invested in their youth and insist on standards of physical and skills development in line with best practise.

Carlton has just got its own reserves Club in 2021 we as a CLub ceded development of youth to affiliated Club(s) who always had their own agendas which was fair enough too - this has always been the biggest issue behind inability to develop young players - and the #1 issue why Carlton has not become a sustainable finals team in AFL. How many people on this forum have stated that Carlton VFL is a negative space for talented kids to develop?

I want people to understand what giving away 20 years of proper development control actually means for where Carlton is coming from - essentially handing competitive and strategic advantage over to most of our AFL competitors at best a limp wristed wave of the arm regarding investing in youth and getting the most out of young draftees.

That is where the Board and management has failed Carlton the most.

We will only begin to get the real benefit of our reserves team over the medium term - and only if proper investment in good coaches and staff is also made there. Bothers me to read that young draftees are pizzed orf with the lack of support they get versus their peers in other Clubs - this has to be fixed now and to read that the CLub is only now spending 200k to do a 'benchmarking test' on best practise for developing youth- - now that is just pathetic.

Looking in from the outside - we are over invested in administration and under invested in hands on development - and trying to play catch up at a time when the AFL has madated less development budgets - forcing a reduction in paid professional development staff. This means that as a starting player in proper development - without any real systems or IP or prcoess that have been proven in place we will continue to be in a disadvantaged position until at lest we have the same overall framework in place that the better teams do. If we want to know when the Club is actually doiung well - look at the performance of the VFL team versus its competitors in AFL.

 

[bluebunz]

Biggest lot of crap I've ever read.
My blood boils when I read where people have shots at others for not being real supporters (fake in this case) or not Carlton enough or say go support someone else - strong unfounded and insulting accusations and demands made by total strangers!

Supporters aren't stupid and they have the right to be angry and they have the right to question things within the club, especially over such a long drought that has had so many moving parts so to speak....and no joy for us supporters.

Things have been between a bit tough and a hell of a lot tough for 20 years now BigFrizz36.
I've been venting on this site and those that came before it for about the same period of time.

Without the Carlton community on this site I think I might have fallen on some cold dark times. I am on this site multiple times nearly every day of the year....like most of you I'm sure.

Fake I am not!

50 plus years of bleading blue...tick

Loyal to the bone I am.

I'm sick of mediocrity.

I'm sick of knowing we don't have a 50 % chance of winning each week.

I'm sick of injuries year in year out.

I'm sick of blokes getting games just on their names...play some more kids.

I'm sick of blokes being played out of position to suit agendas.

I'm sick of blokes playing injured or returning too soon from injury.

I'm sick of being the butt of other supporters jokes....they are in full flight!

I have enough other real sh*t in my life to worry about. Carlton used to give my life some happiness, balance and zip. I'm getting on in life now and I want some of that back. 20 years has been a long time. Honk your horn if you agree!

LIKE X 1,000,000

 

[BlueBlood15]

If we’re talking about about a full overhaul of the defensive structure, it would be very hard to change and implement mid-season.
Small tweaks, absolutely.
For us I feel it’s a combination of effort and system.
Our guys need a rocket to prioritise two way running, but to my eye it is systematic that the team are intentionally corralling rather than chasing. I don’t want to be a broken record about this, but I’m certain our opponents are planning for this defensive approach. They’re taking their time, knowing full well that our guys won’t come at them, will sit off and stall them. Opponents are licking their lips, waiting for the receiver to get free and we are killed on the burst.
When we see Saad and Fogarty chase down and tackle it is frankly shocking, as our guys don’t do it.
I’m no expert, but I doubt this is a choice from the players. Their instinct would be to tackle the man with the ball, but we are trying to outsmart the game by - to use a basketball term - “playing the passing lanes” rather than attacking the man with possession.
Much smarter footy brains will articulate it better than me, but if we want to do a 180 on this system it won’t be implemented in 2 weeks.

Agree with this analysis OTF.
Modern footy is about pressuring the ball and the man. The ability to bring manic pressure may be the number one ingredient for success or at least close to over the past 5 years.
Richmond have built a dynasty largely on hacking the ball forward and applying manic pressure. Yes they have good players but without the pressure they’re not winning 3/4 flags.
The Dogs flag in 2016 was also based on manic pressure. Small players who attacked the ball and man.
Yet here we are trying to corral players rather than tackle them. And, to make things even worse, we have a game plan that involves us pressing up the ground to defend. This is fine but you need forward pressure to keep it in. If your forwards and mids don’t pressure to keep the ball in, the opposition can just walk it out of their defence and then they’ve got half a ground to work into as we pushed so high up the ground.
The players should be shown the effort and intensity of Fog and Saad. Whoever doesn’t want to play with that intent, shouldn’t be playing. Don’t pick on reputation. Pick on performance and willingness to play uncomprising footy

 

[thylacine60]

Biggest lot of crap I've ever read.
My blood boils when I read where people have shots at others for not being real supporters (fake in this case) or not Carlton enough or say go support someone else - strong unfounded and insulting accusations and demands made by total strangers!

Supporters aren't stupid and they have the right to be angry and they have the right to question things within the club, especially over such a long drought that has had so many moving parts so to speak....and no joy for us supporters.

Things have been between a bit tough and a hell of a lot tough for 20 years now BigFrizz36.
I've been venting on this site and those that came before it for about the same period of time.

Without the Carlton community on this site I think I might have fallen on some cold dark times. I am on this site multiple times nearly every day of the year....like most of you I'm sure.

Fake I am not!

50 plus years of bleading blue...tick

Loyal to the bone I am.

I'm sick of mediocrity.

I'm sick of knowing we don't have a 50 % chance of winning each week.

I'm sick of injuries year in year out.

I'm sick of blokes getting games just on their names...play some more kids.

I'm sick of blokes being played out of position to suit agendas.

I'm sick of blokes playing injured or returning too soon from injury.

I'm sick of being the butt of other supporters jokes....they are in full flight!

I have enough other real sh*t in my life to worry about. Carlton used to give my life some happiness, balance and zip. I'm getting on in life now and I want some of that back. 20 years has been a long time. Honk your horn if you agree!

HONK ******* HONK!!!!

 

[Blue Pride]

For me the question becomes can we as a club continue to contract injury prone/affected players.
Curnow, Marchbank and Kemp haven’t set foot on the field for over a season. Docherty missed 2 years and is a shadow of the player he was.