Bluemour Melting Pot XXVIII

[OldBlueFan]

Cause being seen to be absolute pricks at the trade table would be a great way to encourage other clubs to do the same to us?

And not your regulation Dodo or SOS type prick, but the kind of prick who rejects an acceptable trade only to give up the same asking price in the draft purely to deny it to the club who is losing the player.

Imagine if that became "acceptable" practice across the comp?

Furthermore, as much as it would deny Essendon Pick 8, it would effectively move every other club's pick up one spot, thereby helping 16 other sides...

You mean like when we walked Jack Martin to the pre-season draft? Or like when Dodoro blocked Daniher from getting to Sydney by rejecting a perfectly decent offer and then losing him for nothing a year later, seemingly just to stop us from getting Papley?

Didn't seem to affect the following year's trading landscape one iota. The 'stains still got a decent return for Fantasia, they also managed to get Calldwell from GWS, and we did a great deal for Fogarty.

List managers are paid to get the best possible outcome for their club, and all of the clubs know that, obviously. And if a move like the one suggested was actually going to benefit "every other club", why would they be unhappy anyway?

 

[RPCB]

Peter Sumich on radio in WA today reckons there will be a exodus of Freo players looking to head back home to VIC.

Sean Darcy
Darcy Tucker
Adam Cerra

He is still salty he didn't get the Fremantle job. Peter Sumich is acting like a scorned former Dockers Assistant Coach who thought he was a shoe-in for Head Coach. Nothing to see here.

 

[Poorman53]

You mean like when we walked Jack Martin to the pre-season draft? Or like when Dodoro blocked Daniher from getting to Sydney by rejecting a perfectly decent offer and then losing him for nothing a year later, seemingly just to stop us from getting Papley?

Didn't seem to affect the following year's trading landscape one iota. The 'stains still got a decent return for Fantasia, they also managed to get Calldwell from GWS, and we did a great deal for Fogarty.

List managers are paid to get the best possible outcome for their club, and all of the clubs know that, obviously. And if a move like the one suggested was actually going to benefit "every other club", why would they be unhappy anyway?

You are taking a very narrow view. It isn't the way to go about it and reflects poorly on the club. Even when we ended up walking Martin to the pre-season draft SOS did a draft night swap of picks with GC in their favour as a small gesture. He spoke about this on SEN how he wanted to make sure they got something for losing a quality player.

Don't forget we have McKay coming out of contract and the last thing we would want is NM walking him to the pre-season draft.

 

[Coops93]

I agree Cerra would be a nice get but,
What do you do with Stocker, LOB, Cunners, Carroll, Kennedy and Philp.
Not sure a young player needs to be brought in to complement the young players that you already have.

I'd rather Cerra than anyone mentioned.

A guy constantly playing at AFL level and showing ability > guys playing inconsistently at VFL level, let alone AFL.

 

[Lace_Out]

You are taking a very narrow view. It isn't the way to go about it and reflects poorly on the club. Even when we ended up walking Martin to the pre-season draft SOS did a draft night swap of picks with GC in their favour as a small gesture. He spoke about this on SEN how he wanted to make sure they got something for losing a quality player.

Don't forget we have McKay coming out of contract and the last thing we would want is NM walking him to the pre-season draft.

Somehow I don't think he would want to switch teams, regardless of extra moola.

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[Blue__Balls]

You mean like when we walked Jack Martin to the pre-season draft? Or like when Dodoro blocked Daniher from getting to Sydney by rejecting a perfectly decent offer and then losing him for nothing a year later, seemingly just to stop us from getting Papley?

Didn't seem to affect the following year's trading landscape one iota. The 'stains still got a decent return for Fantasia, they also managed to get Calldwell from GWS, and we did a great deal for Fogarty.

List managers are paid to get the best possible outcome for their club, and all of the clubs know that, obviously. And if a move like the one suggested was actually going to benefit "every other club", why would they be unhappy anyway?

Surely you can see the difference in those scenarios?

Martin wasn't "walked" to the draft by us, we offered a second rounder, GC wanted a first and were willing to let him go in the draft for nothing to make a statement.

Dodo blocked Daniher from going to Sydney because he was under contract and they genuinely thought they could convince him to stay. (If you think he did it to stop us getting Papley then you're certifiably insane.)

What you're talking about is saying "We think your asking price of Pick 8 is fair, we're willing to give that pick up, but instead of giving it to you we're just going to throw it at him in the draft so you don't get compensated for your player".

It's a shithead play, and you know it's a shithead play. It's not "getting the best outcome for your club", it's undermining the trade rules to try and deny another club their deserved compensation.

 

[Coops93]

Somehow I don't think he would want to switch teams, regardless of extra moola.

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If anything I'd expect the other McKay to want to play for us. He is OOC this year. Who would go to North right now?

Unless they're offering H something silly like $1.5m a year, like they did with Martin, but even he saw through that in the end.

 

[morningbrown]

Players I would target that are OOC

Spine - 1 or 2

Ballenden
Brander
Koschitzke
Chol

Others - 1 of

Noble
Constable
Mcintosh RFA
Billings RFA
Lipinski
Hewett RFA

Cerra or Merrett if we get 1, 1 of the above talls, then take the best spine player through the draft

Chol or Brander would be my preferred targets from that list. A Billings would be nice but would cost too much.

 

[CJMB]

Surely you can see the difference in those scenarios?

Martin wasn't "walked" to the draft by us, we offered a second rounder, GC wanted a first and were willing to let him go in the draft for nothing to make a statement.

Dodo blocked Daniher from going to Sydney because he was under contract and they genuinely thought they could convince him to stay. (If you think he did it to stop us getting Papley then you're certifiably insane.)

What you're talking about is saying "We think your asking price of Pick 8 is fair, we're willing to give that pick up, but instead of giving it to you we're just going to throw it at him in the draft so you don't get compensated for your player".

It's a sh*thead play, and you know it's a sh*thead play. It's not "getting the best outcome for your club", it's undermining the trade rules to try and deny another club their deserved compensation.

Plus this is Austin's first year with us as the big dog. He didn't have credits in the bank for past years of being a good & fair operator. Not sure you'd want to start this caper like a cowboy and potentially have other clubs and player managers hesitant to deal with us.

 

[RPCB]

If anything I'd expect the other McKay to want to play for us. He is OOC this year. Who would go to North right now?

Unless they're offering H something silly like $1.5m a year, like they did with Martin, but even he saw through that in the end.

Yep. Harry isn’t nominating North Melbourne, as much as our supporters say Harry would like to play with his brother. This isn’t little league football. Harry isn’t nominating a bad football team because his brother, who lives in the same city as him, plays for that club. Ridiculous to even think it.

 

[thylacine60]

Surely you can see the difference in those scenarios?

Martin wasn't "walked" to the draft by us, we offered a second rounder, GC wanted a first and were willing to let him go in the draft for nothing to make a statement.

Dodo blocked Daniher from going to Sydney because he was under contract and they genuinely thought they could convince him to stay. (If you think he did it to stop us getting Papley then you're certifiably insane.)

What you're talking about is saying "We think your asking price of Pick 8 is fair, we're willing to give that pick up, but instead of giving it to you we're just going to throw it at him in the draft so you don't get compensated for your player".

It's a sh*thead play, and you know it's a sh*thead play. It's not "getting the best outcome for your club", it's undermining the trade rules to try and deny another club their deserved compensation.

ripping post

 

[blueboy25]

He is still salty he didn't get the Fremantle job. Peter Sumich is acting like a scorned former Dockers Assistant Coach who thought he was a shoe-in for Head Coach. Nothing to see here.

Sumich isn't Hagdorn, Duffield or Hardie who bring out these rumours all the time.

Its not very often he speaks about player contracts so even though he is probably still a bit peeved he didn't get the Dockers or Eagles job over the years he has never been one to be spiteful.

 

[RPCB]

Sumich isn't Hagdorn, Duffield or Hardie who bring out these rumours all the time.

Its not very often he speaks about player contracts so even though he is probably still a bit peeved he didn't get the Dockers or Eagles job over the years he has never been one to be spiteful.

Fair enough. I mean there is always a “Go Home” factor with AFL football anyway, so if Cerra does become available, I would love to see us get involved.

 

[Own The Future]

Chol or Brander would be my preferred targets from that list. A Billings would be nice but would cost too much.

I like Chol as a Levi replacement.
Plays a very similar role, could even be a permanent ruck option if needed.
Obviously much better athletically, but lose a bit in marking ability.
Combined with TDK would make a very dynamic ruck/fwd combo.

 

[bmaurizio]

I'd rather Cerra than anyone mentioned.

A guy constantly playing at AFL level and showing ability > guys playing inconsistently at VFL level, let alone AFL.

Agree totally, one would rather a consistent contributor instead or 3 or 4 players struggling to make an impact at VFL , with drawbacks , endurance , skill deficiencies or just can’t get on the park.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

Surely you can see the difference in those scenarios?

Martin wasn't "walked" to the draft by us, we offered a second rounder, GC wanted a first and were willing to let him go in the draft for nothing to make a statement.

Dodo blocked Daniher from going to Sydney because he was under contract and they genuinely thought they could convince him to stay. (If you think he did it to stop us getting Papley then you're certifiably insane.)

What you're talking about is saying "We think your asking price of Pick 8 is fair, we're willing to give that pick up, but instead of giving it to you we're just going to throw it at him in the draft so you don't get compensated for your player".

It's a sh*thead play, and you know it's a sh*thead play. It's not "getting the best outcome for your club", it's undermining the trade rules to try and deny another club their deserved compensation.

I’m pretty sure we offered 2 second rounders for Martin with a third coming back.

It was unders but not frightfully so, there was no way we were giving up the 1st rounder in the deal and Cochrane decided they’ll make a “statement” and put him through the PSD

He got to where he wanted anyway, dumb by Cochrane. You push someone leaving into the draft if you don’t get what you want when there’s a significantly worse chance your player won’t get to where they want to go.


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[HaydossJ]

Chol or Brander would be my preferred targets from that list. A Billings would be nice but would cost too much.

Chol is silky and has some solid attributes (e.g., kicking is sublime) for a big man, but he is a dumb footballer and has zero physical aggression. Huge pass for mine.

 

[OldBlueFan]

Surely you can see the difference in those scenarios?

Martin wasn't "walked" to the draft by us, we offered a second rounder, GC wanted a first and were willing to let him go in the draft for nothing to make a statement.

Dodo blocked Daniher from going to Sydney because he was under contract and they genuinely thought they could convince him to stay. (If you think he did it to stop us getting Papley then you're certifiably insane.)

What you're talking about is saying "We think your asking price of Pick 8 is fair, we're willing to give that pick up, but instead of giving it to you we're just going to throw it at him in the draft so you don't get compensated for your player".

It's a sh*thead play, and you know it's a sh*thead play. It's not "getting the best outcome for your club", it's undermining the trade rules to try and deny another club their deserved compensation.

FFS, I knew it was a mistake to bring this all up again. As I said in my original post, I didn't want to rehash it.

If you look at my comments on the issue at the time of the Saad trade, I wasn't saying the club should do, or portray itself in any of the ways that you're now intimating. What I said then, and still believe now is that our position should have been "we are not giving you pick 8 when we can get him for that in the draft, come to us with a better offer and we'll make a deal when we think it's right for both clubs". They had plenty of moves they could make to shuffle draft picks and give us something decent back. There were also moves that we might have made to get them a pick closer to 20, but Dodoro was the one being the d**k, insisting that pick 8 had to be part of the deal.

Pick 8 was never fair for Saad when you put it into the context of other quality HBF's who've been traded before him (eg. Sam Docherty for a low 30's pick).

Feel free to reply with more of your hyperbole, but I'm done going over this again.

 

[Jeremias]

Not sure the Saad and Docherty trades are comparable. The situations were completely different, and at the time Docherty was nowhere near the player he has become.

 

[Rosscoe]

And not your regulation Dodo or SOS type prick

Putting the two in the same sentence is intemperate. I would go Dodo or Harley type prick.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Sos put a shocking list together at the Giants. Stuff it up just like Gold Coast. Didn’t bring enough talent in. Can’t believe he let go Cameron, Treloar, Shiel, Adams, Steele, Williams, Wilson, Lobb, Tomlinson to name a few.

Only just reading the thread now... Did someone address this? I hope someone did...

 

[CJMB]

Only just reading the thread now... Did someone address this? I hope someone did...

So much to unpack here. Not sure if srs....

1 - GWS has an all-time win/loss record of 44.1% vs Gold Coast 24.5%.
1A - GWS has made finals 4/9 seasons. GCS has never made finals, has finished in the bottom four 7/10 seasons and bottom two for HALF of their 10 seasons!

2 - Not enough talent? If anything, having too much talent is what pushed so many out the door.

3 - Every single player you mentioned left GWS after SOS did except one... Adams.

3a - Adams got GWS Heath Shaw, who gave them 6 great seasons (and one meh one), a backline marshal who earned 2 x AA, 1 x B&F and would be in the top 5 careers so far in GWS's short existence.

 

[Blue__Balls]

FFS, I knew it was a mistake to bring this all up again. As I said in my original post, I didn't want to rehash it.

If you look at my comments on the issue at the time of the Saad trade, I wasn't saying the club should do, or portray itself in any of the ways that you're now intimating. What I said then, and still believe now is that our position should have been "we are not giving you pick 8 when we can get him for that in the draft, come to us with a better offer and we'll make a deal when we think it's right for both clubs". They had plenty of moves they could make to shuffle draft picks and give us something decent back. There were also moves that we might have made to get them a pick closer to 20, but Dodoro was the one being the d**k, insisting that pick 8 had to be part of the deal.

Pick 8 was never fair for Saad when you put it into the context of other quality HBF's who've been traded before him (eg. Sam Docherty for a low 30's pick).

Feel free to reply with more of your hyperbole, but I'm done going over this again.

Well maybe you should have said "We should have threatened to walk him to the draft and take him with 8 to try and leverage a better deal"?

Instead you said:

Not to re-hash a tired old argument, but a lot of people (myself being one) couldn't understand why we would give the 'stains a leg-up by giving them pick 8 when we could have just got Saad to nominate for the draft and taken him with pick 8 ourselves. No-one was going to use any of picks 1 - 7 to take him before us.

Therefore we could have got him for the same "cost" but the 'stains would have got nothing. Instead, they got an extra top 10 draft pick.

I can only respond to what you write, not what you were thinking when you wrote it. And why the hell would I go trawling through your posts from 5-6 month ago to gain a deeper understanding of what you might be trying to say?

You also doubled down when offered reasons why we wouldn't do what you suggested, by trying to compare it to two completely different scenarios (where the club who would have been receiving the pick(s) elected to forgo them for their own reasons).

You can get shitty with me and accuse me of hyperbole, but at the end of the day the issue is that you either didn't say what you meant to say, or you said what you meant and are backtracking.

Anyway, discussing the whole value thing, because there aren't any other rumours to occupy us.

We often praise teams like Geelong and Hawthorn for targeting players they know will provide meaningful improvement, and then being prepared to pay a little over market value to secure them. For a side that wanted to move up the ladder and contest for finals, and lacked speed from half back AND a quality small defender, Saad represented the perfect fit.

It's impossible to assign a specific pick value to a player - you can't say "Saad is worth Pick 12 - not Pick 11, or Pick 13 - Pick 12". It's a negotiation based on what one club has to offer and what the other wants to receive. We had 8, Essendon wanted 8, we tried to offer them much less, they held firm, we tried to offer them multiple picks with value approximately equal to Pick 8, that didn't interest them (and fair enough), we tried to split our pick to take it off the table, but no other clubs bought in.

So we gave up potential overs for a player that we were absolutely confident would walk into the club from day one and fill two specific needs, to a high standard.

And what we gave up was a chance to draft one of the following:



Bugger.

 

[Just Kreuzing]

Redacted.

Shredded....

 

[DangerousD]

I agree Cerra would be a nice get but,
What do you do with Stocker, LOB, Cunners, Carroll, Kennedy and Philp.
Not sure a young player needs to be brought in to complement the young players that you already have.

What to do? Kennedy is on the rookie list, Cunners still hasn’t cemented himself in the team, Stocker has clear deficiencies and the other two are two years younger.

Cerra plays every week, last year averaging 17 disposals, he’s well ahead of all those players you mentioned.