Have the Storm cracked the Melbourne market

[weewilly]

cam smith

I know i know, he retired this year. But how many people in Sydney will know a GWS/Sydney player if Buddy wasn't around. I wouldn't know, as I am not from NSW but my point still stands......

And they get 18K(ish) average and as Wookie said, great numbers for both crowd and members for the NRL. quite a long-lasting, successful novelty.

And the Swans with much less success over the last 20 years than the Storm ave about 34.000 at the SCG!
The Melbourne Victory soccer club also easily out draw the Storm in Melbourne when they are winning

We are not talking about NRL teams in Sydney but a very successful on the field NRL team in Melbourne - a big city that has a reputation that it is sports mad.

Victorians tend to go for the bigger sports/events like the Australian Open Tennis,F1GP,Melbourne Cup Carnival and Moto GP and even turn up in large numbers to RLs SOO(that don't translate into higher Storm crowds) many of these people are theatre goers there for the "event" not so much the sport.
.

 

[BringBackTorps]

AFL Neutral Games in Sydney in 2020 - 23,000 + 10,000 on Fox. Total 32,000
Storm Games in Melbourne in 2020 - 37,000 + 12,000 on Fox. Total 49,000
(Swans average rating in Sydney 39,000 + 14,000. Total 53,000 - so there i was wrong on my assumption there. Not much in it though.)

With your qualifiers of "when the AFL is on" - Storm games rate 30,000 + 11,000. Total 41,000
With my qualifiers of "when the NRL is on FTA" - neutral afl games come in at 26,000 + 10,000. Total 36,000.

IIRC, FTA ratings in Melbourne for Storm games rose significantly in 2020- why was that? And can you provide the 2019 H & A Storm average ratings in Melb.?

It is my understanding that some Storm games were on Nine's main channel in Melb. in 2019 & 2020- can you advise how many, & what were the average ratings?
Being on the main Nine channel in Melb. gives Storm ratings, obviously, a MAJOR increase.
(IIRC, one Storm game rated 97k in Melb. when it was on the main Nine channel).
As the Swans games on FTA in Sydney don't have this main channel advantage, how realistic is it to compare the FTA ratings of Swans & Storm?
I assume Swans' ratings in Sydney would triple if their games were on Seven's main channel.

Can you provide any recent ratings in Sydney, when Swans' non-Finals' games were on the Seven main channel in Sydney?

 

[The_Wookie]

IIRC, FTA ratings in Melbourne for Storm games rose significantly in 2020- why was that?

* i dont know...some sort of lockdown i believe

And can you provide the 2019 H & A Storm average ratings in Melb.?

Unfortunately not. I didnt have access to specific secondary city data for most of 2019, I have most of it now somewhere but it takes time to manually count each game. Id have to rebuild from round 4 on and right now i dont have the time.

It is my understanding that some Storm games were on Nine's main channel in Melb. in 2019 & 2020- can you advise how many, & what were the average ratings?

Once in 2019 that i know of. Once in 2020. Generally the week before the AFL starts.

Being on the main Nine channel in Melb. gives Storm ratings, obviously, a MAJOR increase.
(IIRC, one Storm game rated 97k in Melb. when it was on the main Nine channel).
As the Swans games on FTA in Sydney don't have this main channel advantage, how realistic is it to compare the FTA ratings of Swans & Storm?

The Swans are on the main channel a fair bit as well - 10 times in 2019 on Sevens main channel into Sydney. Highest game rated 87,000. Twice in 2020 - both Saturday arvo games - highest rating of 54,000 - with no NRL competition.

Can you provide any recent ratings in Sydney, when Swans' non-Finals' games were on the Seven main channel in Sydney?

In 2019, the Swans averaged 64,000 on the main channel - a lot of Saturday afternoon games.
In 2020, the Swans had 2 games on the main channel 47k, and 54k
In 2021, the Swans game in Round 1 was on the main channel, 62k. Round 2 probably was as well i think

 

[BringBackTorps]

fu** i dont know...some sort of lockdown i believe [Then the 2020 Storm ratings in Melb. of 37k FTA are an outlier, as the Melb. long lockdown caused them to be much inflated. Pre 2020 ratings, therefore, are a much more accurate guide for Melb.- & they would be lower]



Unfortunately not. I didnt have access to specific secondary city data for most of 2019, I have most of it now somewhere but it takes time to manually count each game. Id have to rebuild from round 4 on and right now i dont have the time.



Once in 2019 that i know of. Once in 2020. Generally the week before the AFL starts.



The Swans are on the main channel a fair bit as well - 10 times in 2019 on Sevens main channel into Sydney. Highest game rated 81,000. Twice in 2020 - both Saturday arvo games - highest rating of 54,000 - with no NRL competition.



In 2019, the Swans averaged 64,000 on the main channel - a lot of Saturday afternoon games.
In 2020, the Swans had 2 games on the main channel 47k, and 54k
In 2021, the Swans game in Round 1 was on the main channel, 62k. Round 2 probably was as well i think

When I said I could recall Storm obtaining a rating of 97k in Melb., it was a night game, which is Prime Time- probably a Thur. or Fri. night.
Thur. & Fri. night programs always obtain very strong ratings, cf Sat. & Sun. during the day.

Have the Swans played any H & A games on Thur. or Fri. nights, which were shown on the Seven main channel in Sydney- & any knowledge of their Sydney ratings?

IIRC, in 2019 & earlier, Storm games (after the AFL season started) on Nine's secondary channel, usually rated c. 20k in Melb.- is this correct? And neutral NRL games in Melb. prior to 2020 much lower than 20K?
If not, what is your recollection?

 

[The_Wookie]

Then the 2020 Storm ratings in Melb. are an outlier, as the Melb. long lockdown caused them to be much inflated. Pre 2020 ratings, therefore, are a much more accurate guide for Melb.- & they would be lower

I hope you note the same thing for Melbourne AFL ratings last year.

When I said I could recall Storm obtaining a rating of 97k in Melb., it was a night game, which is Prime Time- probably a Thur. or Fri. night.

Thur. & Fri. night programs always obtain very strong ratings, cf Sat. & Sun. during the day.

Saturday night isnt exactly a ratings blackhole for the AFL and has no FTA NRL competition. Rated 87k and 73k in 2019.

Have the Swans played any H & A games on Thur. or Fri. nights, which were shown on the Seven main channel in Sydney- & any knowledge of their Sydney ratings?

This data is easily available and publicly available to you to find. Please do so. The Swans had one game on FTA on a Friday night in 2019 - it rated 81k.

IIRC, in 2019 & earlier, Storm games in Melb. (after the AFL season started) on Nine's secondary channel, usually rated c. 20k- is this correct?
If not, what is your recollection?

In 2019 the Storms FTA games averaged 24,000 from the data I have. (9 matches). This is incomplete.

 

[NoobPie]

I hope you note the same thing for Melbourne AFL ratings last year.

Does that mean you are going to finally tell us the overall aggregates AFL versus NRL plus SOO for 2020? From memory the Melbourne lockdown was a core basis for not providing it

Saturday night isnt exactly a ratings blackhole for the AFL and has no FTA NRL competition. Rated 87k and 73k in 2019.

Saturday nights are substantially lower ratings nights than Fridays and Thursdays

This data is easily available and publicly available to you to find. Please do so. The Swans had one game on FTA on a Friday night in 2019 - it rated 81k.



In 2019 the Storms FTA games averaged 24,000 from the data I have. (9 matches). This is incomplete.

Ahhh, there you go

And if the storm broncos opener rated above 56 (pre AFL starting) the Storm's FTA average was below 20

As it is, the Storm got 20K in Melbourne on Friday night against the Broncos. It is probably resting position for the Storm during AFL season

Sydney AFL ratings for non-AFL games this year for thursday and Friday nights thus far this year are averaging 25K with a low of 20K....

21K, 29K, 26K, 30K, 20K

...i.e higher than the Storm in Melbourne (going on 16 years of a freakishly dominant era) when against the AFL

 

[BringBackTorps]

I hope you note the same thing for Melbourne AFL ratings last year.

Yes I do ie AFL games rated much better than average in 2020 in Melb., due to the long lockdown. Ditto, Storm & other NRL game ratings in Melb.
2020 is, therefore, inflated for both codes' ratings. The 2020 Storm figure of 37k FTA in Melb. is much higher than the 2019 figure of 24 K FTA for Storm in Melb.

Saturday night isnt exactly a ratings blackhole for the AFL and has no FTA NRL competition. Rated 87k and 73k in 2019.

Were these Sat. night 87k & 73k in 2019 Swans' games?
Were these 87k & 73k FTA AFL ratings in Sydney in 2019 on a Sat. night on the secondary Seven channel? (Makes a huge difference).

This data is easily available and publicly available to you to find. Please do so. The Swans had one game on FTA on a Friday night in 2019 - it rated 81k.

Was the Swans' 81k in 2019 on a secondary Seven channel in Sydney?

In 2019 the Storms FTA games averaged 24,000 from the data I have. (9 matches). This is incomplete.

How many of these 9 2019 Storm FTA matches were in Prime Time in Melb. Thur. or Fri.? How many on the Melb. main Nine channel? Both would give FAR higher ratings for Storm.

 

[RedV3x]

It has bailed the Swans out several times in the 80s and 90s.

The Swans bailed out the VFL. The Sunday television earnings went to the VFL and the Swans only received a club's share of that revenue.

 

[The_Wookie]

The Swans bailed out the VFL. The Sunday television earnings went to the VFL and the Swans only received a club's share of that revenue.

lol what

 

[RedV3x]

lol what

It's quite straight forward. The VFL's spending was spiralling out of control and this was affecting some clubs like Fitzroy and South Melbourne.
The VFL was only televised on Saturday at the time. The Swans moved to Sydney and theSunday television earnings went to the VFL and the Swans only received a one club's share of that television revenue.
The Swans bailed out the VFL by adding a valuable new source of revenue.
Of course, that was the catalyst for the VFL//AFL to demand Sunday games.
WTF you LOL is beyond me. I thought you knew about football.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

That's precisely what you have done though. I made a general claim "the storm rarely get out of the 20s in Melbourne when against the AFL"

and

"THe storm rate less than non Sydney AFL games in Sydney more often than not"

Both claims are specific and correct




It is the exact point / claim you are responding to though.

"the storm rarely get out of the 20s in Melbourne when against the AFL"

and

"THe storm rate less than non Sydney AFL games in Sydney more often than not"



I've made a clear specific claim. You are wrong and have too much pride to admit it and are now grasping




It demonstrates the Storm almost never get out of the 20s in Melbourne on FTA when up against the AFL

NRL fans have been pretty much conditioned to watching their games on Foxtel over the past decade or two, throw those figures in too if you have them.

If you've got Foxtel to watch the NRL, why would you even bother switching to FTA to watch a game when Foxtel is simulcasting it anyway and it's add free during play and probably broadcast in better quality?

If I'm watching a game of footy not involving Geelong and the Storm are playing, I'll quite often switch back and forth and quite often stay on the league for an extended period. The only game of footy that I watch on fta is the gf and that's because we don't have a choice.

 

[The_Wookie]

It's quite straight forward. The VFL's spending was spiralling out of control and this was affecting some clubs like Fitzroy and South Melbourne.

South melbourne are the Swans here right? The VFL wasnt in an financial difficulty itself in 1982.

The VFL was only televised on Saturday at the time. The Swans moved to Sydney and theSunday television earnings went to the VFL and the Swans only received a one club's share of that television revenue.

The Swans bailed out the VFL by adding a valuable new source of revenue.

Sure, if you ignore the costs involved in sending them there in the first place. The Swans never really stopped needing bailing out after the relocation. In 1982, the league had to spend half a million on them to help their establishment, and at the end of the year the club was more than $1.5 million in debt While I cant find exact figures for tv rights in 1982-883. TV rights in 1980 were 600k a year, and in 1985 were 3 million a year - 1985 also the year the Swans were sold to Edelston.

• 1983 – May 11. A report by David Crawford says the Swans are dangerously close to extinction. (The Phoenix Rises pg 20)
• 1983 – John Elliot and Elders IXL look at buying the Swans. They would need to pay out 1.6 million in debt and buyout 1800 members at $40 a piece. The plan was later dropped. (Football Limited pg.97)
• 1985 – April 3. The VFL approves the privatisation of the Swans, announcing that they have two bidders – Basil Sellars and Geoffrey Edelston. The winning bid would have to pay the Swans $1.4m debt.

Of course, that was the catalyst for the VFL//AFL to demand Sunday games.

I mean sure, if you ignore the fan surveys in 1979, and the crowds at several sunday matches in Victoria in 1981....

WTF you LOL is beyond me. I thought you knew about football.

I dont know everything, and I know less and less every day.

 

[RedV3x]

South Melbourne are the Swans here right?

You have to ask ?
To all that that were there at the time it was evident that the VFL was living beyond it's means.
The VFL IS the clubs and a number of clubs were in trouble. It was originally Fitzroy going to Sydney.
No VFL team would have gone north otherwise and later the AFL wouldn't have been formed either.
The VFL didn't expand for altruistic reasons and the under capitalisation of the Swans nearly led to their demise.

To all that that were there at the time it was evident that the NSWRL was doing everything it's power to disrupt the Swans.
The rugby league dominated SCG was charging the Swans $250,00 annual rent for 11 games.
They built a stadium within a handpass of the SCG and the NSWRL scheduled games in direct competition to the Swans.
The SCG charged the NSWRL $100,000 for a full season plus finals at the new stadium.
The SCG also prevented the Swans from building a club house near the SCG which could have been a great source of income.

Whatever. The Swans are now a powerhouse and a great ambassador to the game of Australian Football.
The fact that they went through some tough times makes it even more enjoyable to be part of the Sydney Swans now.

 

[RedV3x]

NRL fans have been pretty much conditioned to watching their games on Foxtel over the past decade or two.

NRL fans have pretty much lacked any conditioning what-so-ever so watching their games on Foxtel is their only option.

 

[The_Wookie]

You have to ask ?
To all that that were there at the time it was evident that the VFL was living beyond it's means.
The VFL IS the clubs and a number of clubs were in trouble. It was originally Fitzroy going to Sydney.
No VFL team would have gone north otherwise and later the AFL wouldn't have been formed either.
The VFL didn't expand for altruistic reasons and the under capitalisation of the Swans nearly led to their demise.

t if you want to believe the VFL couldnt live without the Swans, thats up to you.

 

[RedV3x]

if you want to believe the VFL couldnt live without the Swans, thats up to you.

I just love people who make up idiotic interpretations out of the people's statement.
I said that the VFL, that is the VFL clubs had been caught up in a cost spiral and a number of VFL clubs were floundering.
i did mention the Swans and the Roys.
The VFL could have:
1. Done nothing and let some lesser clubs fail.
2. Brought in equalisation measures.
3. Broached new markets as they did.
4. Taken Wookies suggestion and played games on Sunday generating more income

 

[BringBackTorps]

To all that that were there at the time it was evident that the NSWRL was doing everything it's power to disrupt the Swans.

Can you provide more details please?
(ie other issues NOT covered by my questions below).

The rugby league dominated SCG was charging the Swans $250,00 annual rent for 11 games

The SCG charged the NSWRL $100,000 for a full season plus finals at the new stadium.

$250k was a LOT of money in the early 80's, & fan admission charges a lot lower than now (allowing for the much lower median wage then).

Any material differences between what the SCG was offering to the Swans, & SFS to the NSWRL?

What was the NSWRL charged per NSWRL game at the SCG? And at the old Showgrounds?

Did the Swans &/or VFL complain about this apparent gross mistreatment & discrimination against AF?
And what was the response from the NSW govt. &/or SCG Trust etc.? How were the higher charges, per VFL, game justified?

They built a stadium within a handpass of the SCG and the NSWRL scheduled games in direct competition to the Swans.

But wasn't the SFS simply a replacement for the old Sydney Showgrounds? Thus no "evil' plotting against AF.
And how many NSWRL games pa were being played at the Showgrounds, prior to demolition?

By "direct competition", were NSWRL game times concurrent with Swans' home games"?
Were the NSWRL game times a change in the usual times, played before the Swans moved to the SCG?

(Incidentally, it is well known that the NRL were scheduling game times in Sydney's WS, against GWS home games. And, IIRC, GCFC faced the same problem with Titans' home games).

The SCG also prevented the Swans from building a club house near the SCG which could have been a great source of income.

Why did the SCG implement this ban? And how did they justify this?
What power did they have over the Swans to prevent them locating their clubhouse very close to the SCG, where the Swans wanted?
Did the Swans or VFL complain?

 

[RedV3x]

$250k was a LOT of money in the early 80's, & fan admission charges a lot lower than now (allowing for the much lower median wage then).

Absolutely, that's why it sucked big time.

Any material differences between what the SCG was offering to the Swans, & SFS to the NSWRL?

Yes, the Swans got a lot less at the SCG and paid a lot more.

Did the Swans &/or VFL complain about this apparent gross mistreatment & discrimination against AF?

No. because it was considered an outright code war. People (some) thought they would become redundant.

But wasn't the SFS simply a replacement for the old Sydney Showgrounds?

Eastern Suburbs used to play out of the dilapidated sports ground not the show grounds.
The SFS was not simply a replacement but the premier stadium built not on the same land but closer.

 

[RedV3x]

By "direct competition", were NSWRL game times concurrent with Swans' home games"?
Were the NSWRL game times a change in the usual times, played before the Swans moved to the SCG??

Yes, NSWRL games were concurrent with Swans's games and the NSWRL fixtures came out last.

Why did the SCG implement this ban? And how did they justify this?
What power did they have over the Swans to prevent them locating their clubhouse very close to the SCG, where the Swans wanted?

The Swans only had a lease on a rugby league controlled SCG

Did the Swans or VFL complain?

The Sydney media saw more value in fuelling the codes rather than promoting a new endeavour.