All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[JB1975]

Although I mostly agree with Domus on this issue I respect your viewpoint and feel for the pain you must have suffered during your upbringing JB
No violence is acceptable, and no partner or child abuse is acceptable- regardless of gender. I’m fortunate in that I don’t know anyone personally who has suffered abuse (except for my Mum and her siblings growing up in the depression) however my sister was a social worker with Children’s Protection Services and the things she encountered on a daily basis were too horrific for her to talk about. It defies belief how parents, both mums and dads, can be so wilfully abusive to their children.
I do think men need a bigger, louder voice to gain more attention to their side of the equation, to their needs, and the plea should be for all domestic violence and mental abuse to stop.
Women may not be so physically violent but they can cause a great deal of mental and emotional harm by such things as withholding access to the children etc

And I think, generally speaking, women’s actions are more often excused, or they more easily gain public sympathy

Rosie Batty had the ear of the nation and could easily have made it a plea for all domestic violence and abuse to stop.


And I heartily commend you for having those conversations with your son JB

These are difficult and loaded conversations. Even for people who have some facility with words, it isn't easy to pitch a point of view without putting some heat on it.

But I'm trying.

I can't help but be flummoxed and bamboozled and other quaint terms by the suggestion that Batty has in some way failed or been derelict. There is widespread acknowledgment about the particular nature and extent of men's violence in the home. Rosie Batty didn't make this up, she simply drew upon her own horrific story to draw attention to the issues she has personally experienced.

We should feel challenged by stories like hers, but I don't see a need to feel threatened.

And we should undoubtedly and wholeheartedly acknowledge the pain of people in our society, as much as compassion allows, whether they are a middle-class divorcee who struggles to leave the house because of crippling anxiety or a working class bloke who works as hard as anyone but is only one lost week of wages from being homeless.

I know that men can suffer violence and I know that women can inflict it.

Still, I don't understand why any of this makes the story and advocacy of people like Rosie Batty any less legitimate. Do other people need a bigger voice, or do we all need to listen more carefully to their pain? Yes. Do their stories need to be shouted over the top of the many female victims of domestic violence in order to be heard? No, they most certainly don't.

I will continue to talk about these things with my son, because I do worry that he'll internalise a lot of the discussion around 'toxic masculinity' and feel like s**t about himself at a time when his self-esteem is under attack from every possible angle.

I have come to despise the term 'toxic masculinity'. It is filled with poison, and yet at the same time it is devoid of intrinsic meaning, which is to say that it comes to mean whatever the person who uses it wants it to mean.

Nevertheless, the casual relationship that many men have with violence and its partnering with a need for control can and does cause profound damage behind closed doors, and we should continue to call it out for the sake of us all, not least the frightened souls who need to grow up amongst it.

Peace. Xox.

 

[Good Horse]

It's an almost impossible area to wade into without stomping on a whole lot of sacred cows so I guess I just am glad that people are prepared to talk about it at all. I think this is one of those areas where everyone is bringing bits to the equation, the problem is only their bit seems to matter some times.

On the question of violence and then intimate partner violence, the data is there. one of the best sources has been the Dunedin longitudinal, which although only one cohort and one place, has been replicated in other places with smaller data sets.

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/170018.pdf

Key findings seem to be

- woman assault men pretty much as often as vice versa in domestic situations.
- a key difference is obviously the amount of damage men can do at the upper end of the severity scale.
- another key difference is the unwillingness of men to report

also interesting, the violence experienced in the household represented a far higher proportion of the total incidence for women than for men. So in general, males overall are experiencing higher rates of violence.

Factors that correlated strongly to intimate partner violence included poverty, low academic attainment, histories of violent delinquency in adolescence, and then mental illness and substance abuse. The last two seemed particularly correlated with male perpetrators, as well as poverty.

So in general, when it comes to intimate partner violence, we might be missing a lot of things looking exclusively at a gender lens, when all the data is pointing to a phenomenon that is heavily correlated to broader measures of disadvantage.

As a separate phenomenon, sexual offending is heavily gendered and strongly correlated to attitudes to women from men and boys.

I dont think conflating the two always helps, because the issues can be pretty different.

In both cases, the role of men as victims is largely ignored, for a whole bunch of reasons. Which is not to downplay the impact on female victims, or in the case of sexual violence in particular, the predominance of female victims. But *, it aint good. Getting access to specialised counselling or support as a male victim of rape is damn near impossible for example. But I dont get that it has to be a zero sum game; lets talk about all of it, but we dont have to have everyone talking about all of it or they somehow are bad or evil.

The toxic masculinity thing is because the idea, which started out at least trying to do something positive, has been hijacked on all sides.

The idea that certain expectations and modes of masculinity can be damaging to guys is a no brainer. Its one reason guys die younger, why we dont seek help for mental health issues, or health issues broadly. But the idea that masculinity itself is toxic is ****ed in the head.

I have a boy who is now almost ten. I havent been in his life, and if I get a chance to be, I just hope the * I dont screw him up any worse than he will already be having me as his father. But if I get the chance, I will tell him to respect himself, be proud of who he is, and treat everyone else with the same respect. And if anyone tries to mess with his head, they will answer to an angry horse.

 

[JB1975]

In both cases, the role of men as victims is largely ignored, for a whole bunch of reasons. Which is not to downplay the impact on female victims, or in the case of sexual violence in particular, the predominance of female victims. But fu**, it aint good. Getting access to specialised counselling or support as a male victim of rape is damn near impossible for example. But I dont get that it has to be a zero sum game; lets talk about all of it, but we dont have to have everyone talking about all of it or they somehow are bad or evil.

The toxic masculinity thing is because the idea, which started out at least trying to do something positive, has been hijacked on all sides.

The idea that certain expectations and modes of masculinity can be damaging to guys is a no brainer. Its one reason guys die younger, why we dont seek help for mental health issues, or health issues broadly. But the idea that masculinity itself is toxic is f’ed in the head.

One of the first observations of feminism in the 1970s was domestic and sexual violence, and it made perfect sense for that to be a pillar of their movement.

The continuing extent of the violence means that the continued activism of people like Rosie Batty --who says nothing new-- makes sense and is needed, and these efforts shouldn't be criticised for not bringing attention to violence committed against men.

As simplistic as it sounds, more men need to speak out about their own experience in the way that Rosie Batty has done. They might fear ridicule or disbelief, but there is no way to be heard and understood without speaking up.

It's hard or close to impossible to get a grasp on the violence committed by men against women, and --from bits and pieces I've picked up-- I'd say that not enough specific attention gets directed to Indigenous communities or certain ethnic communities, where the prevalence of old-style patriarchal ideas provides fertile ground for violence.

We seem much, much less aware of the nature of violence done to men in the home. I think a commitment to understand and deal with all types of domestic violence is imperative and admirable, but separate discussions about what the f*** is actually going on need to be had.

'Toxic masculinity' was always a lazy term, and there was always a tendency to conflate it with masculinity more broadly. It's getting worse, or at least more widespread, despite the fact that the behaviour and attitude of most men is considerably better than it has ever been. When even the Herald-Sun makes a habit of targeting high school boofheads simply because they behave like boofheads, you know that things have gone too far.

Mate, I most certainly hope you make yourself a bigger part of your son's life. You could bring him nothing but joy.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

The self-loathing as a society that seems to be a pre-requisite for progressiveness right now is highly concerning.

The story of the young boys @ the school in Warrnambool needing to apologise for literally being born men is astonishing, all in the name of 'equality'.

Critical Race Theory is going to destroy the US, unless people push back. We absolutely can not allow that to infiltrate our shores.

We shouldn't be taught to hate who we are, or our families & friends based on things completely out of their/our control.

 

[JB1975]

Critical Race Theory is going to destroy the US, unless people push back. We absolutely can not allow that to infiltrate our shores.

That sounds quite dramatic, Leviathan. But for now I live in more fear of another Motley Crue reunion tour.

But of course you're right about one thing, we shouldn't be taught to hate those things about ourselves which we can't control, and that Warrnambool thing was just silly. Most sensible people say so.

 

[Good Horse]

That sounds quite dramatic, Leviathan. But for now I live in more fear of another Motley Crue reunion tour.

But of course you're right about one thing, we shouldn't be taught to hate those things about ourselves which we can't control, and that Warrnambool thing was just silly. Most sensible people say so.

Now I am tempted to have a reunion of my horse themed band MÖTLEY HËRD.

 

[JB1975]

Now I am tempted to have a reunion of my horse themed band MÖTLEY HËRD.

I've always suspected that the tribute bands of Motley Crue run a real risk of outdoing the original, in all things except hair and leather.

But I reckon you guys would leather and fluff up nicely.

Apologies for imprecision: MÖTLEY CRÜE

 

[Good Horse]

I've always suspected that the tribute bands of Motley Crue run a real risk of outdoing the original, in all things except hair and leather.

But I reckon you guys would leather and fluff up nicely.

Apologies for imprecision: MÖTLEY CRÜE

Well leather is second nature for us. And as for the hard rockin mane hair, well...

 

[Black_White]

Who said are our Elections are not Rigged

It’s the new paradigm in everything!
There is, and has never been, 100% compliance in anything. This includes elections. There will be anomalies, there will be people who try and manipulate the results. And some will succeed;

https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/images/stories/committees/emc/2018_Election/Submissions/12._Malcolm_Mackerras_Supplementary_1.pdf

But there is no such thing as zero risk.
As far as our electoral system goes, I’ll back it over just about any in the world.

 

[HeathySure]

is this the right place for a Prince Phillip rant? Good riddance, sick of the revisionist history in the news today, he was a despicable human being.

 

[jathanas]

is this the right place for a Prince Phillip rant? Good riddance, sick of the revisionist history in the news today, he was a despicable human being.

Probably isn't, but we don't have a royalty thread.

I share your view of him as an a*hole of the highest order.

 

[Markfs]

is this the right place for a Prince Phillip rant? Good riddance, sick of the revisionist history in the news today, he was a despicable human being.

Tony will not be impressed by this rant. Was Phil despicable? He was a bit of a snob.

On other matters, the virus jab has become par for the course. Australians make breakthroughs in science and yet we cant make the product. It's typical of this country...

I get BHP telling me 100 times during the footy that it makes copper for greeny things....of course it does. And they make iron too...no sorry they dont do that because they closed those iron fabrication shops..

We do real estate well...but we dont make vaccines....well yeh we make em but we cant deliver em

 

[Markfs]

Why Christine Holgate hasn't resigned her directorship on the board is beyond me. We already have an untenable position of having two presidents nominated by the last president. Coupled with that we have a vice president in Waislitz whose only interest is "recreational", although you could argue that he uses it for his business interests.

Ms. Holgate is currently giving evidence to a senate committee. She indicated that she was unable to deal with her sacking since it occurred. I'm sure she is capable of doing other things when she is chewing gum, but you have to wonder where her mind has been in the last few months.

I dont think the current board's position could be worse. The average poster in the forum says it matters little. I say to them that successful organisations are rarely led by people who are worried about their own lives or careers.

It is a complete utter mess. It is likely to lead to some time in the wilderness, irrespective of a coaching change.....the magical potion that cures all ills.

 

[TradeDraft]

Give the Man a Gold Medal

 

[Markfs]

Give the Man a Gold Medal

Give the man a brain

 

[TradeDraft]

Give the man a brain

Why he is doing what a Lot of Aussie would LOVE to do

 

[Markfs]

Why he is doing what a Lot of Aussie would LOVE to do

Because morrison would dismiss him as an idiot. If people asked more intelligent questions, it would be more helpful to either getting rid of him or changing his attitudes.

For example, morrison is planning to subsidise natural gas to promote it as the key way to make electricity....instead of supporting recyclables. Short-sighted...stupid...

We should be electing smart people with long-term plans. It's the idiots who are voting who are the problem.

 

[Black_White]

We should be electing smart people with long-term plans. It's the idiots who are voting who are the problem.

Smart people don’t go into politics.
And long term plans are impossible to make when those who do take up politics feel the gravy train is their way to untold riches.
And long term plans are impossible with three year terms. Even less than three years if the PM of the day sees the opportunity to get a fresh three.

 

[ExcitementMachine]

is this the right place for a Prince Phillip rant? Good riddance, sick of the revisionist history in the news today, he was a despicable human being.

Yet you are happy to put despicable humans deified by the woke left in your avatar just to troll in an attempt catch the 'RWNJ's'.
And I could not care less about Prince Phillip.

 

[HeathySure]

Yet you are happy to put despicable humans deified by the woke left in your avatar just to troll in an attempt catch the 'RWNJ's'.
And I could not care less about Prince Phillip.

 

[Leviathan Pie]

is this the right place for a Prince Phillip rant? Good riddance, sick of the revisionist history in the news today, he was a despicable human being.

Dross hot-take.

 

[Markfs]

Smart people don’t go into politics.
And long term plans are impossible to make when those who do take up politics feel the gravy train is their way to untold riches.
And long term plans are impossible with three year terms. Even less than three years if the PM of the day sees the opportunity to get a fresh three.

well that's true of all politicians to some degree, although i suspect a few want to do something good in the long term. And it's true that politicians do look at the 3 year term, but if voters were a bit more discerning, we could get politicians who looked more long term.

In reference to the initial comment, if the best the australian voter can do is to flip a finger at the PM, then no wonder we get the crap pollies that we get...no wonder smart people dont go into politics... if fact, I disagree with you on that. There are a lot of smart people in there but they are generally also very strategic about their own careers.

 

[Black_White]

well that's true of all politicians to some degree, although i suspect a few want to do something good in the long term. And it's true that politicians do look at the 3 year term, but if voters were a bit more discerning, we could get politicians who looked more long term.

In reference to the initial comment, if the best the australian voter can do is to flip a finger at the PM, then no wonder we get the crap pollies that we get...no wonder smart people dont go into politics... if fact, I disagree with you on that. There are a lot of smart people in there but they are generally also very strategic about their own careers.

Hmmm..... smart people strategic about their careers avoid politics and enter corporate life.
But I do believe the vast majority of politicians entered that life thinking they could make a difference. But it’s not lomg before that dream is crushed by party politics. Peter Garrett is the best example of this.

 

[Markfs]

Hmmm..... smart people strategic about their careers avoid politics and enter corporate life.
But I do believe the vast majority of politicians entered that life thinking they could make a difference. But it’s not lomg before that dream is crushed by party politics. Peter Garrett is the best example of this.

Trust me I've known a few, and i've known a few in the labor party. Their dreams aren't crushed, they're compromised. In any collective decision making, you have to have a consensus and you have to compromise. Soon after joining the party, people like Garrett would be told that they'll never get anywhere if they keep singing US Forces.... so they stop... and then they make other compromises...little by little..

Of course, those are the idealistic ones.

Some are strategic from the start. They network...and never stop. Graeme Richardson....

The trick is for the electorate to be strategic too....nimble... never loyal .. that's why swinging voters get a lot of attention paid to them.

 

[Markfs]

Instead of going up to morrison and giving him the finger.... go up to morrison and say "i only vote labor because they will do something about global warming. If the liberals did something, i'd vote for them. I prefer you to Albo". Get a few hundred mates to do the same thing. It will get Scomo thinking.