Analysis Clarko in 2019 “We’re a middle of the road team”

[Timo pez]

I've hear that said abut Lethal at Brisbane, but that super team was an actual wooden spooner before Lethal arrived.

Alistair Clarkson is a great coach, and has also been central to a transformation at all levels of the club to a power of the AFL.

The only criticism could be that the back office staff have been so respected other clubs have recruited them to their clubs in huge numbers

Now I've said my piece, what was your point again?

Not to say he's not a great coach, he is, but the success was not all Clarko driven. It's like people think the guy waved a magic wand. Those players would transform ANY club. Also, why is it we get massacred by the umps each week, and get horrible timeslots and very minimal media coverage?

 

[Pessimistic]

We had Brooksby, Ceglar and Hartley... all older.

Thats very selective. In fact our Box hill players did most of the grunt. Hawks midfield will look a damn site better when Maginnes and Downie have served their apprenticeship - we just need to be patient

 

[Zack]

I originally had this in the JOM thread but kept the first line in there and moved it to here as it's probably more appropriate.

He's (JOM) probably been the only shining light of our older players this year. Wingard has been ok until yesterday but missed the first couple.

You look at the others, on our list in age order over 27 years. Burgoyne, McEvoy, Brooksby, Bruest, Ceglar, Shiels, Scully, Gunston, Hartigan, Patton, Mitchell, Hartley, (Wingard), Frost, (JOM) TOB.

The rest have been below average at best on what they once were otherwise they are retired or or are just journeymen to begin with.
Gunston is the only one out injured.

Again it comes down to List Management.
Look at our Rucks in that list all 3 over 30 and Reeves our only development player.
Look at our KPB's 3 in that list and DGB our only development player and all three picked up in the past two years to cover the fact before DGB we had no-one coming through. (Frawley was already bought in, mind you as was Lake that is our history in defence Zero KPB development)
Look at our fast or tall midfielders, none in that list, none coming through. Unless we count JOM as being able to break away from the centre clearances which with the exception of the Richmond game he has come of age this year. In clearance situations he has become fast he can get away from the opposition. So I'll wear that one.

There are 16 blokes on that list there 27 and over. How many did Hawthorn draft and develop as players? 3 yep 3! Bruest, Shiels and TOB.

 

[Pessimistic]

Not to say he's not a great coach, he is, but the success was not all Clarko driven. It's like people think the guy waved a magic wand. Those players would transform ANY club. Also, why is it we get massacred by the umps each week, and get horrible timeslots and very minimal media coverage?

I completely disagree with you. While it wasn't all him, a group of people transformed the club, and he was central to that.

And while it was happening, 2015 onwards, plenty of people including 'supporters' were having a pop at the club. Including widespread ridicule online at actually recruiting Buddy Roughy and Lewis not (what was his name again) "Human Highlight Reel"

 

[Brishawk]

Clarko came in and swept out the high priced under performing players.... Rawlings, Holland, Hay, Harford, Thommo, Graham, Everitt. Lots of bridges and egos burnt in the process.

Yes he has the town halls needed to do it again.

Does he really have the desire and energy to go through all the pain again with what the tough decisions bring.

I feel as tho our once strength being ruthless with list decisions has now become a weakness.

Keeping senior players on for a year or two too long as a sort of farewell/ thank you tour is a lovely sentiment but has never been Hawthorn.

I am not just referring to Burgoyne either. Others that finished up last year were cooked 12 months earlier and we didn’t make the hard calls on some club favourites for whatever reason and just delayed the inevitable .

There were a few we could have moved on a year before hand but we would only have replaced them with players at the bottom end of the draft. Poppy didn’t play much and Stratton was eventually dropped. We had no replacement for Frawley but moved him on once we did. I don’t think it hurt us terribly to keep them. A few could have spent less time in the seniors last year when it was obvious they were going though the motions but otherwise I’m not sure it has hurt us too much.

 

[Pessimistic]

I originally had this in the JOM thread but kept the first line in there and moved it to here as it's probably more appropriate.

He's (JOM) probably been the only shining light of our older players this year. Wingard has been ok until yesterday but missed the first couple.

You look at the others, on our list in age order over 27 years. Burgoyne, McEvoy, Brooksby, Bruest, Ceglar, Shiels, Scully, Gunston, Hartigan, Patton, Mitchell, Hartley, (Wingard), Frost, (JOM) TOB.

The rest have been below average at best on what they once were otherwise they are retired or or are just journeymen to begin with.
Gunston is the only one out injured.

Again it comes down to List Management.
Look at our Rucks in that list all 3 over 30 and Reeves our only development player.
Look at our KPB's 3 in that list and DGB our only development player and all three picked up in the past two years to cover the fact before DGB we had no-one coming through. (Frawley was already bought in, mind you as was Lake that is our history in defence Zero KPB development)
Look at our fast or tall midfielders, none in that list, none coming through. Unless we count JOM as being able to break away from the centre clearances which with the exception of the Richmond game he has come of age this year. In clearance situations he has become fast he can get away from the opposition. So I'll wear that one.

There are 16 blokes on that list there 27 and over. How many did Hawthorn draft and develop as players? 3 yep 3! Bruest, Shiels and TOB.

Kosi was recruited as a Key back

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

I originally had this in the JOM thread but kept the first line in there and moved it to here as it's probably more appropriate.

He's (JOM) probably been the only shining light of our older players this year. Wingard has been ok until yesterday but missed the first couple.

You look at the others, on our list in age order over 27 years. Burgoyne, McEvoy, Brooksby, Bruest, Ceglar, Shiels, Scully, Gunston, Hartigan, Patton, Mitchell, Hartley, (Wingard), Frost, (JOM) TOB.

The rest have been below average at best on what they once were otherwise they are retired or or are just journeymen to begin with.
Gunston is the only one out injured.

Again it comes down to List Management.
Look at our Rucks in that list all 3 over 30 and Reeves our only development player.
Look at our KPB's 3 in that list and DGB our only development player and all three picked up in the past two years to cover the fact before DGB we had no-one coming through. (Frawley was already bought in, mind you as was Lake that is our history in defence Zero KPB development)
Look at our fast or tall midfielders, none in that list, none coming through. Unless we count JOM as being able to break away from the centre clearances which with the exception of the Richmond game he has come of age this year. In clearance situations he has become fast he can get away from the opposition. So I'll wear that one.

There are 16 blokes on that list there 27 and over. How many did Hawthorn draft and develop as players? 3 yep 3! Bruest, Shiels and TOB.

is it kinda not a good thing that our older players have for the most part been average? we relied on them way too heavily in 18-19, and even Gunston in 2020. Its good that we're remaining mostly competitive even while our older players are dropping off a bit. It means the transition won't be as painful if our younger blokes are capable of taking it up to teams, even if only for 3Qs

 

[Pessimistic]

Clarko came in and swept out the high priced under performing players.... Rawlings, Holland, Hay, Harford, Thommo, Graham, Everitt. Lots of bridges and egos burnt in the process.

Yes he has the town halls needed to do it again.

Does he really have the desire and energy to go through all the pain again with what the tough decisions bring.

I feel as tho our once strength being ruthless with list decisions has now become a weakness.

Keeping senior players on for a year or two too long as a sort of farewell/ thank you tour is a lovely sentiment but has never been Hawthorn.

I am not just referring to Burgoyne either. Others that finished up last year were cooked 12 months earlier and we didn’t make the hard calls on some club favourites for whatever reason and just delayed the inevitable .

He kept Campbell Bateman Osborne Ladson Sewell* who were Role player types as well as Williams Croad Crawford and recruited Guerra 26 Dew 29

It quicker to list the 2008 premiership players drafted since clarko arrived: Birchall, Franklin, Roughead, Lewis, Young, Ellis, Renouf, Rioli

 

[Pessimistic]

Theres plenty not great about our list right now, but some of you are going way over the top and sometimes completely factually wrong in some of the criticisms of the clubs approach.

Just stick to the facts, they are bad enough. its like some kind of competition about who can be the most negative

 

[Mercy Seat]

Others that finished up last year were cooked 12 months earlier and we didn’t make the hard calls on some club favourites for whatever reason and just delayed the inevitable .

We finished up 2019 very strongly, and there was a thought that we'd have a crack it in 2020 particularly with the anticipated arrival of Coniglio. However misguided it is in retrospect, this whole board was fairly optimistic at the start of last year.

 

[Endorphin Machine]

Weve got a lot of Debbie Downers here.
Just remember, were only 4 games and percentage off top spot . Perspective.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Our biggest issue right now is the distinct lack of onfield leadership.

The young guys are playing on instinct, but the older guys aren't getting them into the right spots, telling them to lead, etc.
I'm not sure that will change this year either

 

[matey]

I just hope with the 18 rounds remaining the guys that aren’t in at the moment such as Greaves, Downie, Reeves, Brockman, S Mitchell, Jeka and Finn get some games.

 

[Pessimistic]

If you make an assumption a team hitting moderately good form can win 2/3 of remaining games and 13 wins is finals, any of the teams on 1 win (1/5 form) need to hit that form next week to play finals. Top 4 premiership form (3/4 meaning 16 win season) or better is needed for teams getting to 1-5
Round 7 on is make your mind up time: 15 Games remain

Hawthorn have lost to 2nd (-50) 5th (-21) 8th (-5) 9th (-15) and beaten 14th (Just +1) so they seem the definition of what Dermie calls an honest middle of the ladder team

 

[CHUBBSS]

I don’t really care what the past strategy was or if it didn’t work, I care more about the current strategy and if it is sound and can enable us to build into the future.

If we have all players fit (which is rare) we would win far more games but the concern will be we do a north Melbourne and hover aimlessly in the middle because we don’t have the elite talent in the middle.

The one question the board should be asking to clarko is, if you came in and this was your first year would you be doing all the same things as we are now? My feelings are we are still straddeling the old strategy and the new

(I think we are desperately in need of a senior right hand man in the box)

 

[Timo pez]

Weve got a lot of Debbie Downers here.
Just remember, were only 4 games and percentage off top spot . Perspective.

yeah, and where did we finish last year? Blindly trusting the direction doesn't make you a better Hawthorn supporter

 

[Pessimistic]

I don’t really care what the past strategy was or if it didn’t work, I care more about the current strategy and if it is sound and can enable us to build into the future.

If we have all players fit (which is rare) we would win far more games but the concern will be we do a north Melbourne and hover aimlessly in the middle because we don’t have the elite talent in the middle.

The one question the board should be asking to clarko is, if you came in and this was your first year would you be doing all the same things as we are now? My feelings are we are still straddeling the old strategy and the new

(I think we are desperately in need of a senior right hand man in the box)

Bucks to fill the Ratten Role? not sure how that fits the soft cap.

Also I had a thought - Hawthorn coaches have been cut dramatically but I get the impression the Box hill panel is bigger. Maybe players we have hopes for are playing there to get the benefit of a better coaching ratio?

On the Players, No team can go that well without the better players, but we need Sicily Gunston and Will Day more than most would

 

[tommyk72]

Pretty selective there by Kane. He clearly does it to stir the pot.

Missed Kosi. Plus fair enough they didn’t play, but add Day and Brockman to that list 2 weeks ago and it’s not as bad as Kane makes it out.

Then add an extra year to make it 22 and you have Worps, Scrim, Lewis, Morrison, probably a couple others I’ve missed off the top of my head.

That’s also a pretty selective response. I’ll agree re Kosi, but the others weren’t playing (and weren’t replaced by Downie or other youngsters), and if you add another year for us you have to also do it for the other clubs.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

yeah, and where did we finish last year? Blindly trusting the direction doesn't make you a better Hawthorn supporter

did it fly over ur head mate?

 

[tommyk72]

One thing I’m particularly worried about is that a lot of our best players are half back flankers/back pockets. This year it’s been CJ, Impey, Day (early), Scrimshaw. Sicily to come back. We’ve also got Hardwick, Greaves, and even Morrison/Howe floating in that mix.

I worry that very few of these guys play substantive midfield roles (where we need to improve) and that the good players will be forced out when really we need change in the midfield.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

One thing I’m particularly worried about is that a lot of our best players are half back flankers/back pockets. This year it’s been CJ, Impey, Day (early), Scrimshaw. Sicily to come back. We’ve also got Hardwick, Greaves, and even Morrison/Howe floating in that mix.

I worry that very few of these guys play substantive midfield roles (where we need to improve) and that the good players will be forced out when really we need change in the midfield.

it's my hope scrimshaw and day will become midfield/wingers as they progress, especially once sicily comes back

would suddenly give us good outside ball users for the first time in a long time

though their value to our backline is also huge, Greaves and sicily are good enough ball users to fill in the void Day/Scrim would leave.

Especially when you consider how great of an intercept mark Scrim is, you could rest him at HB, or maybe even fwd, a la Fyfe and Danger..

anyway, lots of things we have to figure out before we can become competitive again and finding out if were able to translate some of our elite back men into mids/fwds etc is one of them

 

[mustang]

The penny has finally dropped for me. I’ve been a true believer. But this is the worst hawks team I can recall in 40 years. We topped up with mediocrity. And now our best players are mediocre, and the team is less than that.

A few green shoots are there, and so the rest of this season and the next are all about encouraging that growth. That might be a hard pill to swallow for Mitchell omeara and wingard, who have been sold on Clarko’s doomed rebound - hope they can sustain some passion.

If they can’t then put them up for trade and get some top line kids.


“The definition of insanity is playing some players over and over again, but expecting different results and performances.”

 

[The hands of stone]

It will be interesting to see what happens from here. Heard Jaeger after the match talking about how disheartening it was to lose by 50 points after being in a winning position. Developing side, lapses in concentration. If we can just fix up those lapses we'll win more games of footy, get more confidence and the success will flow from there. That seems to be the view of the club at the moment.

The other view is that having our backs to the wall for the past 12 months has been physically and mentally draining for the group, and that we need an injection of youth to take us forward. We've seen the raw energy and enthusiasm that Day and CJ brought to the side. My view is that we'll need another healthy dose or two of that before we see senior players get their belief back in the team's direction.

Edit: Next week is a good text case. We come up against an Adelaide side who will field 22 players with about half the experience of our team. Yet they are flying and should start favourites despite the fact we're playing at a ground that favours us. They and Sydney are the poster-boys for what youth can do. They might both fade mid-season, but the internal belief will be strong for the next few years based on what they've shown over the past month.

The crows most important player is a 30 yo key forward who many had done and dusted last season as a player.
They also have Tom Lynch is a more than handy experienced link up forward who is smart and creates space.
Fogarty is a talented forward now 3-4 years in an AFL system.
Lets see what a Gunston/Bruest/Lewis combo can do for us , we havent had that yet .

Their kids are not bad but they arent just playing kids either .
Smith and Laird off half back, Seedsman on a wing etc .
They have also just lost to Freo at home , our board almost exploded last week when Freo beat us in WA.

 

[Pessimistic]

If they can’t then put them up for trade and get some top line kids.


“The definition of insanity is doing hard rebuilds over and over again, but expecting different results and performances.”

FFY

 

[Pessimistic]

Lets face it, the Clarko Coach/administration only fails by its own high standards most other clubs would kill to get him

The main exception being Dimma at Richmond

Top 4 2018-21 Three premierships. But what nearly happened in 2016? Might have been a very different story if the admin (who were ridiculed for a 5 year type plan which actually came true) were replaced.

AFL 2016: who's behind the Richmond Tigers coup plot?

It's not "fantasy football" Richmond spearhead Jack Riewoldt tells supporters amid intensifying divisions over the club's failed season.

www.theage.com.au