Mongrel - who has it who doesn't ? Does it Matter?

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Williams
Fogarty
Cripps
Walsh
Silvagni
Cottrell

that’s really it

Kennedy has it, but he does it with a smile.

Stocker has it.

Williamson had it but seems to have lost it.

Parks may have it. He certainly doesn't mind hurting them in tackles.

 

[Coops93]

So we need to make changes to our training methods, KPIs and selection processes that reward the guys for whom winning (everything - the ball, the contest, the game) is a non-negotiable, and develops/encourages it in those for whom it isn't. And anyone between here and the end of the season who can't find that inside themselves should be shown the door.

I really like this.

Setterfield on the weekend only had 14 touches, but he had 11 tackles. Perhaps a good approach to that is to say if you get 11 tackles again next week you're right in the frame for selection, instead of saying find the footy.

Dow as well; show us your tackling mate. Give us 8 tackles and 12 contested possessions for 2 weeks and you'll be close, even if you do only get 15 total touches per game. Show us some hardness.

Even Cripps' whole development the last 2 years has been about finding the outside ball and being more "balanced". This year he's averaging a career high uncontested possessions per game, but his CP and tackling has fallen away massively and everyone is talking about how he's not playing well. Stuff the UC mate get back to 8 tackles and 17 contested possessions a game again.

 

[FRUMPY]

I really like this.

Setterfield on the weekend only had 14 touches, but he had 11 tackles. Perhaps a good approach to that is to say if you get 11 tackles again next week you're right in the frame for selection, instead of saying find the footy.

Dow as well; show us your tackling mate. Give us 8 tackles and 12 contested possessions for 2 weeks and you'll be close, even if you do only get 15 total touches per game. Show us some hardness.

Even Cripps' whole development the last 2 years has been about finding the outside ball and being more "balanced". This year he's averaging a career high uncontested possessions per game, but his CP and tackling has fallen away massively and everyone is talking about how he's not playing well. Stuff the UC mate get back to 8 tackles and 17 contested possessions a game again.

Good points - all well and good to get 25 touches and zero tackles and your man has 25+ as well. Would love for younger players to come in and get their 12-15 touches but also get 5+ tackles a game and show intent to do the hard stuff. At the moment they arent doing either, which is even worse. Getting 10-15 touches and doing SFA in work rate/pressure.

 

[Coops93]

Kennedy has it, but he does it with a smile.

Stocker has it.

Williamson had it but seems to have lost it.

Parks may have it. He certainly doesn't mind hurting them in tackles.

I think Kennedy has it too, but when does he really show it in the 1s? I don't know maybe it's a myth as he has very little impact, physical or otherwise.

Williamson had it in spades but really has gone into his shell, hopefully it wasn't taught out of him

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I should probably also mention Pittonet who since being coached by Kreuzer seems to have become more physical, trying to barrel through players at stoppages like the Tractor did.

It's not exactly mongrel but there is some intent there.

As much as I can't wait for the athleticism of De Koning to add value to our side, I can't see him having mongrel.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I think Kennedy has it too, but when does he really show it in the 1s? I don't know maybe it's a myth as he has very little impact, physical or otherwise.

Williamson had it in spades but really has gone into his shell,

Kennedy is always up for the push and shove stuff so will engage in sticking up for teammates. Probably doesn't seek to bury opponents during the play though.

I wonder if our players have been told to curb aggression for fear of giving away free kicks.

Not a lot of setting the tone going on out there.

 

[FRUMPY]

Kennedy is always up for the push and shove stuff so will engage in sticking up for teammates. Probably doesn't seek to bury opponents during the play though.

I wonder if our players have been told to curb aggression for fear of giving away free kicks.

Not a lot of setting the tone going on out there.

The whole pushing around isnt really mongrel though, especially when you dont put your head over the ball or tackle with aggression. I see some people on this thread previously said LOB has it because he goes in for the push and shove (which he does) - but he wont go near a hardball.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

I should probably also mention Pittonet who since being coached by Kreuzer seems to have become more physical, trying to barrel through players at stoppages like the Tractor did.

It's not exactly mongrel but there is some intent there.

As much as I can't wait for the athleticism of De Koning to add value to our side, I can't see him having mongrel.

TDK has it. He's already shown it. Mongrel isn't hurting your opponent it's just never stopping, competing hard and going when it's your turn to go. TDK does that every single time. Doesn't leave anything out there, tackles when it's his turn and crashes packs. He's already ahead of pitt in the Mongrel. Pitts too nice, should've come out breathing fire vs port after having a bad game against no ruckman in gc but he just... Didn't.

 

[Blue__Balls]

I really like this.

Setterfield on the weekend only had 14 touches, but he had 11 tackles. Perhaps a good approach to that is to say if you get 11 tackles again next week you're right in the frame for selection, instead of saying find the footy.

Dow as well; show us your tackling mate. Give us 8 tackles and 12 contested possessions for 2 weeks and you'll be close, even if you do only get 15 total touches per game. Show us some hardness.

Even Cripps' whole development the last 2 years has been about finding the outside ball and being more "balanced". This year he's averaging a career high uncontested possessions per game, but his CP and tackling has fallen away massively and everyone is talking about how he's not playing well. Stuff the UC mate get back to 8 tackles and 17 contested possessions a game again.

Gibbs was great for racking up good tackle numbers, he'd shadow his opponent at stoppages, be second to the ball and get a meaningless tackle which resulted in another ball up. 10 tackles looked great on his stat sheet, but they didn't affect the game. I worry that Setters could easily go down that path.

For me it goes a step beyond the numbers - it's about being able to see from a player's effort to win a contest, and their demeanour and subsequent actions when they lose a contest, how much it matters to them. There are players on our list who simply don't care enough when they get beaten, either in moments within games or in the game itself. The result doesn't matter to them. They need to be identified, fixed, and booted if they can't be fixed.

 

[Coops93]

TDK has it. He's already shown it. Mongrel isn't hurting your opponent it's just never stopping, competing hard and going when it's your turn to go. TDK does that every single time. Doesn't leave anything out there, tackles when it's his turn and crashes packs. He's already ahead of pitt in the Mongrel. Pitts too nice, should've come out breathing fire vs port after having a bad game against no ruckman in gc but he just... Didn't.

Speaking of Port, they ooooooze mongrel. It's almost as though you can't play for them unless there's a little bit of c**t about you.

The big 3 draft picks they had all draw the ire of opposition fans - Butters, Rozee and Duursma. All pricks, all bloody good footballers.

Lycett, Dixon, Gray, Houston, Jonas, Hartlett, Amon, Wines, Byrne-Jones, That new young fella Jones and Powell-Pepper. I'm sure if a Port fan is reading this they'd add to this list. Heck if I brought up the list I'd probably see a few I've forgotten. The coach as well has so much about him in that way.

The team play with his personality and it seems they specifically target guys with this mentality.

Whereas our coach is placid and mild mannered, as are most of our players. Not to say it's his fault, most of the team was picked before his time, it's just something you notice.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Speaking of Port, they ooooooze mongrel. It's almost as though you can't play for them unless there's a little bit of c**t about you.

The big 3 draft picks they had all draw the ire of opposition fans - Butters, Rozee and Duursma. All pricks, all bloody good footballers.

Lycett, Dixon, Gray, Houston, Jonas, Hartlett, Amon, Wines, Byrne-Jones, That new young fella Jones and Powell-Pepper. I'm sure if a Port fan is reading this they'd add to this list. Heck if I brought up the list I'd probably see a few I've forgotten. The coach as well has so much about him in that way.

The team play with his personality and it seems they specifically target guys with this mentality.

Whereas our coach is placid and mild mannered, as are most of our players. Not to say it's his fault, most of the team was picked before his time, it's just something you notice.

The mongrel in their team shone through every time we beat them in a contest somewhere around the ground or scored a goal. They'd just go into the next contest or passage of play even hungrier and make sure we didn't win another one. I have no idea of the stats on this but I'd be absolutely shocked if someone had scored 5 goals in a row against them this season (except maybe wc? Port just couldn't win the stoppages in that game). There's too much pride in their performance and mongrel in them to allow that.

 

[JustaBattler]

I'll bold my mongrels and put in red why some blokes who should be impacting but dont in red.

Mongrel starts with having the basic athleic ability to run with your direct opponent as a bare minimum if you cant run with you cant tackle or or cause a turnover or find space to create an option or have the legs to create overlap options- so the first plank of mongrel is athletic capability to actually run..

This sees blokes like Kennedy and Setterfield scratched from my list of mongrel - because for every tackle they make they are beaten many times over by opponent's run..creating weaknesses in defensive systems that are exploited.

Some positions on field allow for less running and and are more about burst impact - this is where KPP forwards and backs can use their size and speed to impact on contests either by taking contested marks/intercepts or making the opposition players feel their presence - run down tackles in forward lines is also a pre-requisite

Neither Harry or Levi tick my box for mongrel here - Harry allows himself to be dictated to by key defenders way too much to have real mongrel conceding front position to Alir in the Port game was a classic example of Harry being soft, falling all over teh ground constantly, ,spread eagling for a free - it is all signs of a smart arsery that doen't sit well with umps - which is why he doesn't get many frees for all the scragging that he allows opposiion defenders to get away with- he has to learn to get nasty to make umpires aware that he wont cop interference all the best key forward do that - watch Buddy 'own' his space. Levi has developed a small amount of nasty in his play - but he doesn't crash packs like his body size is perfectly suited to do and as far as tackling goes it is a rare sight.

Martin has plenty of mongrel - if he gets any chance he will hurt an opponent in a tackle SOJ has it
Walsh is a tough nut and runs hard all day and makes his tackles and gets up and goes hard again - this is high quality mongrel
McGovern has mongrel any chance to stick a tackle and his opponent goes down hard -
Murphy cant spell the word - he has the running capaicty to run with and is expert at running just a couple of meters away from impacting for long distances even - shockingly awful, Eddie doesn't have it anymore because he has lost his repeat effort and running power. Newnes is inconsistent and unreliable, Gibbons is inconsistent and unreliable, Dow cant run or doesn't know how to run, Cottrell has mongrel
Cripps has it, Saad has it, Ed has it but expresses itself more in gut running than hurt factor ( unfortunately)
Williams has it, Pittonet has a little bit and is improving with every game
Docherty doesn't tackle, Jones doesn't hurt blokes and should, Weitering has it in various forms - the most impresive being an ability to stay really calm under enormous pressure and win a contest and get rid of theball in congestion Parks has it, Newman has it...SPS is inconsistent, Williamson is inconsistent Cuningham is inconsistent

I am mostly disapointed with our big forward tbh- they dont impact contests the way they should be and it costs us forward pressure because opposition bigs aren't worried part of the reason our forward pressure is low is lack of seconfd and third efforts below the knees from bioth Levi and Harry - they are both one effort ( at best) players... In fact for all of Harry's talent - if he concentrated on bringing some mongrel into hsi game- he would go from talented to elite very quickly - but he doesn't impose himself on the game.

Good signs but early days from reports on Honey*, Ramsay, Stocker - and I have no doubt that Kemp will ne a winner for us.

Some of the blokes in red could improve - but the fact that they have been in the system for a fair time suggests that the chances are diminishing.

*Disapointed to read that Honey was told to curb his aggressiveness in a match report....but that is Carlton in a nutshell - I mean what a load of total BULLSHIT

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I'll bold my mongrels and put in red why some blokes who should be impacting but dont in red.

Mongrel starts with having the basic athleic ability to run with your direct opponent as a bare minimum if you cant run with you cant tackle or or cause a turnover or find space to create an option or have the legs to create overlap options- so the first plank of mongrel is athletic capability to actually run..

This sees blokes like Kennedy and Setterfield scratched from my list of mongrel - because for every tackle they make they are beaten many times over by opponent's run..creating weaknesses in defensive systems that are exploited.

Some positions on field allow for less running and and are more about burst impact - this is where KPP forwards and backs can use their size and speed to impact on contests either by taking contested marks/intercepts or making the opposition players feel their presence - run down tackles in forward lines is also a pre-requisite

Neither Harry or Levi tick my box for mongrel here - Harry allows himself to be dictated to by key defenders way too much to have real mongrel conceding front position to Alir in the Port game was a classic example of Harry being soft, falling all over teh ground constantly, ,spread eagling for a free - it is all signs of a smart arsery that doen't sit well with umps - which is why he doesn't get many frees for all the scragging that he allows opposiion defenders to get away with- he has to learn to get nasty to make umpires aware that he wont cop interference all the best key forward do that - watch Buddy 'own' his space. Levi has developed a small amount of nasty in his play - but he doesn't crash packs like his body size is perfectly suited to do and as far as tackling goes it is a rare sight.

Martin has plenty of mongrel - if he gets any chance he will hurt an opponent in a tackle SOJ has it
Walsh is a tough nut and runs hard all day and makes his tackles and gets up and goes hard again - this is high quality mongrel
McGovern has mongrel any chance to stick a tackle and his opponent goes down hard -
Murphy cant spell the word - he has the running capaicty to run with and is expert at running just a couple of meters away from impacting for long distances even - shockingly awful, Eddie doesn't have it anymore because he has lost his repeat effort and running power. Newnes is inconsistent and unreliable, Gibbons is inconsistent and unreliable, Dow cant run or doesn't know how to run, Cottrell has mongrel
Cripps has it, Saad has it, Ed has it but expresses itself more in gut running than hurt factor ( unfortunately)
Williams has it, Pittonet has a little bit and is improving with every game
Docherty doesn't tackle, Jones doesn't hurt blokes and should, Weitering has it in various forms - the most impresive being an ability to stay really calm under enormous pressure and win a contest and get rid of theball in congestion Parks has it, Newman has it...SPS is inconsistent, Williamson is inconsistent Cuningham is inconsistent

I am mostly disapointed with our big forward tbh- they dont impact contests the way they should be and it costs us forward pressure because opposition bigs aren't worried part of the reason our forward pressure is low is lack of seconfd and third efforts below the knees from bioth Levi and Harry - they are both one effort ( at best) players... In fact for all of Harry's talent - if he concentrated on bringing some mongrel into hsi game- he would go from talented to elite very quickly - but he doesn't impose himself on the game.

Good signs but early days from reports on Honey*, Ramsay, Stocker - and I have no doubt that Kemp will ne a winner for us.

Some of the blokes in red could improve - but the fact that they have been in the system for a fair time suggests that the chances are diminishing.

*Disapointed to read that Honey was told to curb his aggressiveness in a match report....but that is Carlton in a nutshell - I mean what a load of total BULLSHIT

This word mongrel seems to be encompassing a lot more things than I credited the word for.

If you are scratching those with an inability to run after their opponents, then one way runners like Cripps and Judd before him, should be scratched.

Is mongrel now equivalent to workrate and a desire to tackle?

 

[athensblue]

Whereas our coach is placid and mild mannered, as are most of our players.

Needs to find a phone box and take off his glasses and suit

 

[JustaBattler]

This word mongrel seems to be encompassing a lot more things than I credited the word for.

If you are scratching those with an inability to run after their opponents, then one way runners like Cripps and Judd before him, should be scratched.

Is mongrel now equivalent to workrate and a desire to tackle?

Always has been mate - if a player cant actually keep up with match up or beat them - they cant actually impact at the individual level or create clear options for their team mates by either finding space or helping with overlap run - therefore they arent even in the game - irrepsective of will.

eg ( sadly on evidence) Kennedy is a classic example of a bloke with skill in certain areas ( tackling, marking set shot kicking) but below average ability to actually match outside run of better opponents - I have the same conclusion of Setterfield- although he lacks both marking and set shot kicking ability. With Dow he has certain elite attributes like evasiveness in congestion and good hands and good first option execution - but either lacks running power and or intent to provide each way options and help to team mates - will he improve? - open quesition but for me ...

So ability to match the run of your match up - this is a basic requirement of ANY AFL player - non negotiable - beating the run of a match up is the foundation of better players.

Then you get to idiosyncratic expressions of competitiveness as indicated above some get scratched because they just cant run. Some get scratched because they can run but dont impact in contested manner well enough , ever or inconsistently - these types are unreliable and usually get summarised as one way runners and or soft players - any word you use they are weak links - we have players that can run but are inconsistent and/or poor at skill execution sp[read everywhere in our team.

Then you have another layer of role specific expressions of competitiveness - I limit this to the big boys - who have to impact in generally speaking smaller zones of contests.

The elite midfielders impact the contest from one end of the field to other - this is what makes them elite. The specialists ( big boys/dedicated extractors) impact in the contests at either end of the ground and win set piece ball - the contested skill and physical requirements and physical cost of repeat efforts from these types of body - mean they are only expected to keep up with their direct opponent and beat them at the contest - elite on ballers are also very good runners - adding an extrsa tick to their box - and execute kicking skills as well - this is a very rare breed.

Any game plan is limited by the team wide base levels of the above. Against weaker opponents limitations in certain players are not as obvious - against stronger oppopnents- over 4 quarters - they always get exposed.

 

[J-dog]

We're not poor but at times our leaders can let us down.

That will change soon enough and a new standard developed.

4 years later and it still hasn't changed!
Enough to make you puke isn't it?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Always has been mate - if a player cant actually keep up with match up or beat them - they cant actually impact at the individual level or create clear options for their team mates by either finding space or helping with overlap run - therefore they arent even in the game - irrepsective of will.

eg ( sadly on evidence) Kennedy is a classic example of a bloke with skill in certain areas ( tackling, marking set shot kicking) but below average ability to actually match outside run of better opponents - I have the same conclusion of Setterfield- although he lacks both marking and set shot kicking ability. With Dow he has certain elite attributes like evasiveness in congestion and good hands and good first option execution - but either lacks running power and or intent to provide each way options and help to team mates - will he improve? - open quesition but for me ...

So ability to match the run of your match up - this is a basic requirement of ANY AFL player - non negotiable - beating the run of a match up is the foundation of better players.
otehr
Then you get to idiosyncratic expressions of competitiveness as indicated above some get scratched because they just cant run. Some get scratched because they can run but dont impact in contested manner well enough , ever or inconsistently - these types are unreliable and usually get summarised as one way runners and or soft players - any word you use they are weak links - we have players that can run but are inconsistent and/or poor at skill execution sp[read everywhere in our team.

Then you have another layer of role specific expressions of competitiveness - I limit this to the big boys - who have to impact in generally speaking smaller zones of contests.

The elite midfielders impact the contest from one end of the field to other - this is what makes them elite. The specialists ( big boys/dedicated extractors) impact in the contests at either end of the ground and win set piece ball - the contested skill and physical requirements and physical cost of repeat efforts from these types of body - mean they are only expected to keep up with their direct opponent and beat them at the contest - elite on ballers are also very good runners - adding an extrsa tick to their box - and execute kicking skills as well - this is a very rare breed.

Any game plan is limited by the team wide base levels of the above. Against weaker opponents limitations in certain players are not as obvious - against stronger oppopnents- over 4 quarters - they always get exposed.

If the extractors get a pass via a narrowed scope of competiveness, then surely we have to gauge the impact of Setterfield and Kennedy when they are played as extractors?

Cripps has failed when trying to become more outside because he is an extractor. Some other players are failing outside because they are extractors.

We lack outside runners with mongrel for sure and we are trying to make others fit that role instead of recruiting them.

 

[JustaBattler]

If the extractors get a pass via a narrowed scope of competiveness, then surely we have to gauge the impact of Setterfield and Kennedy when they are played as extractors?

Cripps has failed when trying to become more outside because he is an extractor. Some other players are failing outside because they are extractors.

We lack outside runners with mongrel for sure and we are trying to make others fit that role instead of recruiting them.

Agreed - however neither Setterfield nor Kennedy - nor Dow have been used as extractors, they have been played on a wing/HFF more than in center bounce roles. Teague is having to try and 'find' wingmen and HFF that very occassionaly rotate as on ballers - because he hasnt settled on these positions for one reason or another and it hasnt worked very well irrespective of who has put there since Walsh was put on ball - and his on ball contributions and impact have justified that call. As an aside- it is vey hard for Dow/Setterfield or Kennedy to break into Cripps/Walsh/Ed Williams combo as first options - and will get harder when Martin returns who is a good rotation and if Cuningham gets into some form - Williams/Walsh/Martin/Cuningham/ Ed are all better runners.

Generally speaking any onballer get a pass as long as they are extracting more than their counterparts- ie we are winning the set play clearances around the ground - meaning center bounces, ball ups and boundary throw ins in an effective manner ie actully clearing to advantage. Against Port Cripps did his job - he was on Wines and Ed was on Broad - who beat Ed soundly. I doubt that Kennedy or Setterfield would have done any better against Broad - who is an elite midfielder I also doubt that Cripps could have matched Broad's running power - hence Ed was given the job.

Yes we lack outside run capability as far as consistent ability to beat opponent goes but also in ability to execute kicking skill and find space - Newnes has disapointed in terms of his finishing ability - he finds space in forward 50 but his set shot kcking has been as bad as everyone else. As for field kicking - too much Ed Curnow type stuff from all of them - it is a huge disadavantage for Carlton whcih we all know.

This is why I suspect that Teague has tried to simplify teh game plan to (pretty much) get is forward as fast as possible into 50 to marking talls and try and lock it in - a combination of territory and contested game - when this works we look a million dollars- but if the talls arent clunking marks and ground presure isnt working - we look liek we did against Port and Collimngwood.

This is why the cost of missing 'easy' set shots is particularly nauseating - basically the low skill hihgh pressure game - even if executed well - fails if the players cant kick a 30 meter goal from slight angles or dead in front - mental toughness and an ability to execute to basic levels more often than not is a form of mongrel as well.

EDIT: On Cripps - he has tried too much and has been for a long time now - if he dials it down a tad he will be better off as will the team - because he has made a habit of ignoring first and better options - which just burns off team mates and wastes their efforts in support running. (Gibbons is guilty of this way too often tbh and I am getting very tired of seeing him hog the ball and then hospital pass to someone - seconds later, Gibbo played better when he looks to give off rather than looks first to make a highlight reel play ) - the other thing about cripps is that if hecant kick a goal from dead in front - stop calling for every ball every time-that said his set shot kickimng does look like at least technique has improved and he doesnt look like a donkey trying to kcik a football anymore.

 

[Yubby]

Curious to know if people think this is coachable or if you either have it naturally or you don't?

I certainly think you can reinforce the importance of intangible qualities like mongrel, hardness, intensity, work rate, chasing, blocking, determination all through visual examples. Then change expectations by demanding this behaviour which will in turn change performance.

Knowing whether you've delivered from the viewing test you've performed rather than through metrics and KPIs. Sometimes there aren't metrics for these types of intangibles and so they can be forgotten and lost but i'd love to see Teague say to the players to forget metrics and play to these intangibles and when we watch the tape together after the game, you won't need anyone to tell if you've delivered or not as it's pretty obvious.

 

[Coops93]

Curious to know if people think this is coachable or if you either have it naturally or you don't?

I certainly think you can reinforce the importance of intangible qualities like mongrel, hardness, intensity, work rate, chasing, blocking, determination all through visual examples. Then change expectations by demanding this behaviour which will in turn change performance.

Knowing whether you've delivered from the viewing test you've performed rather than through metrics and KPIs. Sometimes there aren't metrics for these types of intangibles and so they can be forgotten and lost but i'd love to see Teague say to the players to forget metrics and play to these intangibles and when we watch the tape together after the game, you won't need anyone to tell if you've delivered or not as it's pretty obvious.

I'd say it's coachable to a degree. Not even coachable per-se, but driven by culture.

You might naturally be 60 on a 0-100 scale of aggro, but in a team where it's really pushed and encouraged you could probably jump up to 75 out of 100. Conversely if your team is a bunch of nice guys, you'd probably drop a bit to 45/100 if that makes sense.

It certainly looks like Williamson has dropped significantly since his first year.


My 0-100 aggro scale is copyrighted and patented so no one steal it, thanks.

 

[sparkyblue]

I occasionally spot Fraser "Mad Dog" Brown on my morning Tan walks and we have no one close to that level of mongrel in our side right now. What I'd give to let the likes of Browny and Rhys have at our current crop.

 

[katmanblue]

Agreed - however neither Setterfield nor Kennedy - nor Dow have been used as extractors, they have been played on a wing/HFF more than in center bounce roles. Teague is having to try and 'find' wingmen and HFF that very occassionaly rotate as on ballers - because he hasnt settled on these positions for one reason or another and it hasnt worked very well irrespective of who has put there since Walsh was put on ball - and his on ball contributions and impact have justified that call. As an aside- it is vey hard for Dow/Setterfield or Kennedy to break into Cripps/Walsh/Ed Williams combo as first options - and will get harder when Martin returns who is a good rotation and if Cuningham gets into some form - Williams/Walsh/Martin/Cuningham/ Ed are all better runners.

Generally speaking any onballer get a pass as long as they are extracting more than their counterparts- ie we are winning the set play clearances around the ground - meaning center bounces, ball ups and boundary throw ins in an effective manner ie actully clearing to advantage. Against Port Cripps did his job - he was on Wines and Ed was on Broad - who beat Ed soundly. I doubt that Kennedy or Setterfield would have done any better against Broad - who is an elite midfielder I also doubt that Cripps could have matched Broad's running power - hence Ed was given the job.

Yes we lack outside run capability as far as consistent ability to beat opponent goes but also in ability to execute kicking skill and find space - Newnes has disapointed in terms of his finishing ability - he finds space in forward 50 but his set shot kcking has been as bad as everyone else. As for field kicking - too much Ed Curnow type stuff from all of them - it is a huge disadavantage for Carlton whcih we all know.

This is why I suspect that Teague has tried to simplify teh game plan to (pretty much) get is forward as fast as possible into 50 to marking talls and try and lock it in - a combination of territory and contested game - when this works we look a million dollars- but if the talls arent clunking marks and ground presure isnt working - we look liek we did against Port and Collimngwood.

This is why the cost of missing 'easy' set shots is particularly nauseating - basically the low skill hihgh pressure game - even if executed well - fails if the players cant kick a 30 meter goal from slight angles or dead in front - mental toughness and an ability to execute to basic levels more often than not is a form of mongrel as well.

EDIT: On Cripps - he has tried too much and has been for a long time now - if he dials it down a tad he will be better off as will the team - because he has made a habit of ignoring first and better options - which just burns off team mates and wastes their efforts in support running. (Gibbons is guilty of this way too often tbh and I am getting very tired of seeing him hog the ball and then hospital pass to someone - seconds later, Gibbo played better when he looks to give off rather than looks first to make a highlight reel play ) - the other thing about cripps is that if hecant kick a goal from dead in front - stop calling for every ball every time-that said his set shot kickimng does look like at least technique has improved and he doesnt look like a donkey trying to kcik a football anymore.

None of Kennedy, Setterfield or Dow have been used as an extractor.

I think this is partly because Cripps doesn't have a 2nd position. He's either in the middle or on the pine. Otherwise we are carrying him defensively.

Unfortunately he creates as many problems for us as he does the opposition.

 

[katmanblue]

Curious to know if people think this is coachable or if you either have it naturally or you don't?

I certainly think you can reinforce the importance of intangible qualities like mongrel, hardness, intensity, work rate, chasing, blocking, determination all through visual examples. Then change expectations by demanding this behaviour which will in turn change performance.

Knowing whether you've delivered from the viewing test you've performed rather than through metrics and KPIs. Sometimes there aren't metrics for these types of intangibles and so they can be forgotten and lost but i'd love to see Teague say to the players to forget metrics and play to these intangibles and when we watch the tape together after the game, you won't need anyone to tell if you've delivered or not as it's pretty obvious.

It is coachable. Simply have to have the fortitude to drop players who don't show the level required.

Eg. On the weekend Pitto was in a wrestle and not one player went to back him up. I'd be asking the question of the closest players. Why the* didn't you go to him? Drop whoever was closest. And tell everyone why they are being dropped.

Do it again the next week. Watch players start to look after each other.

 

[Kruezing]

It matters ... and no one in our club as a whole both on field and off field has it ...

 

[JustaBattler]

None of Kennedy, Setterfield or Dow have been used as an extractor.

I think this is partly because Cripps doesn't have a 2nd position. He's either in the middle or on the pine. Otherwise we are carrying him defensively.

Unfortunately he creates as many problems for us as he does the opposition.

interesting observation

I think he is perfectly capable of playing as a resting forward - maybe even dragging a tagger with him into an advantageous spot. Cripps is a good mark and his kicking ( sans 20 meter brain fart miss aside) has improved. Give him some time trying this - better than him trying to remodel himself into a running mid - he can also provide a chop out relief third ruck if Teague want to mix things up - plenty of ways to use a talented player.