Universal Love David Teague

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cookie monster said:
Sorry Arrow I'm not going to be another poster you hound off this board by twisting arguments.

I don't think the current board is capable, nor performing at their functions of running a football club. Yes I am on the record over a long period of time on this board noting as such. Right now they are the only common denominator underlying decades of failed rebuilds, coaching tenures, and administrations.

You like to shoot what I say down as bullshit, but I have paid for a premium level of club access and seen/heard things through the years that have allowed me to make an informed view about this. I really don't care whether you choose to believe this or not. You are just another punter with a keyboard to me.

Put it on the record though: are you happy with our football performance right now?
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Any board member responsible for hiring Malthouse should be sacked that was amateur hour
 
Stamos said:
Teague brought LOB back into the team for his first match as coach, and played him through the rest of the year. Samo was moved back later in 19 because we needed his skill in the backline. Ed was rightfully moved back into the guts. Dow was struggling with fitness.
There wasn't a problem with how Teague coached in his 11 games in 19 when we went 6-5.

The problems have been his coaching since then.
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I know.
 

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Arr0w said:
And didn't advance any further in that year or the next 3
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Playing finals is an important milestone and prerequisite to actual success - there's a reason 2008 Hawthorn and 2016 WB are considered exceptional. However we choose to frame the timelines, this is a club just about out of excuses.
 
DangerousD said:
what makes you think they started in 2013? They won 10 games that year and took 1 player in the 1st round and then 1 player in the 1st round in 2014.

If they started in 2013 and we started in 2015, by that reasoning if we miss finals this year, that’s a pretty big negative, seeing as though the Lions finished top 4 two years ago.
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Okay so you want to focus on worst case scenario rather than including the Saints that missed the finals in year 6, let's do that..

Lions a dedicated home ground, no real injuries for the entire year, then went out in straight sets. Yet to achieve anything, given people judge success on flags

Negative? No, I would call it disappointing, but as long as we can see improvement or at the very least a lack of decline, once we have played a full season

We are 6 games in, let's assess it at year's end rather than suggesting the season is over like many did after round 2
 
El Topo said:
Playing finals is an important milestone and prerequisite to actual success - there's a reason 2008 Hawthorn and 2016 WB are considered exceptional. However we choose to frame the timelines, this is a club just about out of excuses.
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Again cherry picking

I am not making excuses, just trying to establish facts, so when it is debated, there is some form of integrity
 
I don't know what people expect from a rookie coach who in his first year as Senior Coach had to contend with COVID itself, a unique situation that no other coach of our club has had to contend with before. Yes, every team had to contend with it to varying degrees but most other clubs had much more experienced coaches than ours at the helm. Another team with a rookie coach, North, had lost their coach by the end of that season.

It hasn't been a very 'normal' start to his coaching career, we shouldn't even be talking in terms of him being under pressure to keep his job at this stage, we should be talking about what the club can do to assist him in his development as a coach.
 
Stamos said:
So those "cheering the Teague Train" might have expected improvement on what he showed in 19, rather than regression.
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Those who were cheering the Teague Train have had their reality check, this is what it means to appoint a rookie coach.
 
Arr0w said:
Again cherry picking

I am not making excuses, just trying to establish facts, so when it is debated, there is some form of integrity
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Excuses from the club, not you. Making finals is no more or less objective than premierships won - nothing sinister about different observers emphasising different milestones. And by either of our yardsticks, this is a big big year.
 
Stamos said:
So those "cheering the Teague Train" might have expected improvement on what he showed in 19, rather than regression.
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Given the improvement was on the back of reintroducing Murph & Ed to prominent roles and reducing usage of Dow & SPS as mids - I'm not sure how they were hoping for a dramatic improvement and frankly, regression was inevitable to a point.
SPS: showed some class off hbf however, he & Willo have since been thrust into more defensive roles with the inclusion of Doc & Saad, which plays to neithers strengths, as such it should come as no surprise that they've stagnated.
Dow: showed a bit as a developing mid but was then effectively swapped out of the midfield mix for Ed who had been playing forward under Bolton.
 
El Topo said:
Excuses from the club, not you. Making finals is no more or less objective than premierships won - nothing sinister about different observers emphasising different milestones. And by either of our yardsticks, this is a big big year.
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All steps are valuable, even the occasional speed hump
 
gab213 said:
Those who were cheering the Teague Train have had their reality check, this is what it means to appoint a rookie coach.
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Clarkson longmire Simpson Beveridge Chris Scott Hardwicke Thompson Roos worsfold Williams since 2000 took there sides to premierships from being rookie coaches .. you can either coach and manage players or not . For me the rookie bit got nothing to do with it ..
 
Blue1980 said:
Well one can have more than one thought on their head at once.

Bolton was diabolically bad, and if we kept him doing what he was doing, we probably would of won maybe another 2 games in 2019, Martin wouldn’t of been interested either.

Last year probably would of been similarly depressing, and then we wouldn’t be able to attract Williams or Saad.

I didn’t expect this blind loyalty to older guys to continue even when they weren’t performing though.

I also don’t get how we have so many mids who look totally lost unless they are playing on ball. I don’t think I’ve ever seen this phenomenon before, does this happen at other clubs?
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Too far skewed to contested mids and not enough in fast high skilled mids - simple as that.
 

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Jimmyonesix said:
Clarkson longmire Simpson Beveridge Chris Scott Hardwicke Thompson Roos worsfold Williams since 2000 took there sides to premierships from being rookie coaches .. you can either coach and manage players or not . For me the rookie bit got nothing to do with it ..
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A few of those you mentioned went very close to losing their jobs before going on to be premiership coaches. None of them were an instant success.
Scott inherited a premiership team that was on autopilot, he didn't have too much influence on that team in his first year. Since then he's kept them thereabouts without winning another one. Worsfold also inherited a super team. None of them though were being questioned in their second years as coaches, why? Because everyone understood that they were rookie coaches. It does make a big difference, especially when the team you are coaching is a developing team itself.
 
The Fantom said:
And how did we go when we got the messiah’s in Pagan and Malthouse?
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Did I advocate for a coach that is clearly at the end of the road after 30 years in the coaching game? There's a long way between that and a rookie coach. I would have been looking at people like B>Scott and Voss, who had enough experience not to be classified rookies and still in their prime. I know plenty won't like either of those suggestions but that isn't important, I'm talking generally of coaches with that amount of experience.
 
Arr0w said:
Okay so you want to focus on worst case scenario rather than including the Saints that missed the finals in year 6, let's do that..

Lions a dedicated home ground, no real injuries for the entire year, then went out in straight sets. Yet to achieve anything, given people judge success on flags

Negative? No, I would call it disappointing, but as long as we can see improvement or at the very least a lack of decline, once we have played a full season

We are 6 games in, let's assess it at year's end rather than suggesting the season is over like many did after round 2
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Yes we are only 6 games in and we have had a very tough draw, we have played poorly in large patches but have shown good signs in others, we face a team next round who we finished higher than last year, who are also struck by injuries and the result will give a good indication of where we are at.

The Lions have finished top 4 the last two seasons, if they started two years before us, then comparing us to them is fair, even though I’m not sure how you have their rebuild starting in 2013, they had one first round pick that year, regardless they have built a side that’s now in a position for challenging for a flag, a premiership takes a lot of things to go right but you need to be there at the pointy end of the season to give yourselves a chance.

The last few weeks has really dented my confidence in the current list and coaching staff, our clubs actions in the trade and FA period last year, suggest they also expect to be challenging more than we are so far.

You have stated you expect finals and so we should, playing good footy and just missing the finals will be disappointing but a good platform to build upon, but a loss against the Bombers would even make that unlikely, our loss against the Pies becomes worse by the week.

I really hope I’m and lots of others are wrong and you are right, there’s just a lot of disappointing aspects about how we are playing and our team is being picked and coached happening at the moment.
 
BlueJet said:
Given the improvement was on the back of reintroducing Murph & Ed to prominent roles and reducing usage of Dow & SPS as mids - I'm not sure how they were hoping for a dramatic improvement and frankly, regression was inevitable to a point.
SPS: showed some class off hbf however, he & Willo have since been thrust into more defensive roles with the inclusion of Doc & Saad, which plays to neithers strengths, as such it should come as no surprise that they've stagnated.
Dow: showed a bit as a developing mid but was then effectively swapped out of the midfield mix for Ed who had been playing forward under Bolton.
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Murphy went into the midfield once Cripps was injured. Dow was struggling fitness wise, and Samo back made sense due to our backline injuries. Samo back makes a lot less sense this year.

Teague got us back on track in 19. I don't see how regression was inevitable?
 
Arr0w said:
All steps are valuable, even the occasional speed hump
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Only valuable if the club has learned from past mistakes. This year could be Carlton 2012 or it could be Richmond 2016 - we'll know soon enough.

Jimmyonesix said:
Clarkson longmire Simpson Beveridge Chris Scott Hardwicke Thompson Roos worsfold Williams since 2000 took there sides to premierships from being rookie coaches .. you can either coach and manage players or not . For me the rookie bit got nothing to do with it ..
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Hardwick, Thompson and Clarkson were all almost sacked before winning premierships - difference is, their clubs took a holistic approach and gave them the support they needed instead of picking a scapegoat. This is where we have consistently failed.
 
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gab213 said:
A few of those you mentioned went very close to losing their jobs before going on to be premiership coaches. None of them were an instant success.
Scott inherited a premiership team that was on autopilot, he didn't have too much influence on that team in his first year. Since then he's kept them thereabouts without winning another one. Worsfold also inherited a super team. None of them though were being questioned in their second years as coaches, why? Because everyone understood that they were rookie coaches. It does make a big difference, especially when the team you are coaching is a developing team itself.
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Other than Voss or leppitsch ( who were failed coaches) or poaching Lyon at years end what other coach was available at the time that didn't have training wheels . He has another year left list still has holes to fill it will all work out .
I feel the rookie mistake he made (Brad Lloyd also) was not shaking up his coaches box the first year and moving some more pieces last year to get some different voices .. this may cost him in the end .. maybe he surrounded by yes men as Bolton also was pig headed and never changed his ways with the same group of assistants .. can't be surrounded by Yes men ..
 
Arr0w said:
Same year
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I can understand wanting to compare rebuilds like that, but in my view, it is over-simplistic and flawed to try to track and compare rebuilds solely on a timeline bc there are so many other variables involved. For instance, they didn't attack any drafts in the same way as we did in 2015.. so even if they did start in 2013, we overtook them in 2015 (assuming that's the start of our rebuild). One could argue that we are actually ahead of them in the process of the rebuild, despite starting later, so we should be more successful.

In any case, we both suck, so it's really just a matter of who sucks less and doesn't really tell us anything much at all. As a Saints fan, I'd be filthy with the trading over the last couple of years though, especially given that the early-round drafting has been quite good.
 
Jimmyonesix said:
Other than Voss or leppitsch ( who were failed coaches) or poaching Lyon at years end what other coach was available at the time that didn't have training wheels . He has another year left list still has holes to fill it will all work out .
I feel the rookie mistake he made (Brad Lloyd also) was not shaking up his coaches box the first year and moving some more pieces last year to get some different voices .. this may cost him in the end .. maybe he surrounded by yes men as Bolton also was pig headed and never changed his ways with the same group of assistants .. can't be surrounded by Yes men ..
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Voss or Scott were my choices, you can call them failed coaches but coaches coming into their second clubs have often been better than what they were on their first try. Anyway, coaches of that ilk. It didn't need to be a 'premiership coach' but I didn't think a rookie coach was the way to go either. Now that we chose to go that way the club has a responsibility to get behind him and support him 100%. That may come down to changing some of the staff around him, assistant coaches, etc. A full-time senior-type assistant would be good too.
 
gab213 said:
Voss or Scott were my choices, you can call them failed coaches but coaches coming into their second clubs have often been better than what they were on their first try. Anyway, coaches of that ilk. It didn't need to be a 'premiership coach' but I didn't think a rookie coach was the way to go either. Now that we chose to go that way the club has a responsibility to get behind him and support him 100%. That may come down to changing some of the staff around him, assistant coaches, etc. A full-time senior-type assistant would be good too.
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I also liked Scott as he seemed to over achieve with an average list for a longtime and was good game day -- but from what his brother has been saying maybe we dodged a bullet there as mentally he may have been spent by the end of his struggles at north ..
 
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