When will the Carlton FC Arrive?

[Chief]

Part 2 of this thread is here:

When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

PART 1 of this thread is here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/when-will-the-carlton-fc-arrive.1259822/ ============= We're all thinking it. We're watching this story play out for the 4th time in the last 20 years and it's the same story every time. They have a great list of exciting...

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[Soapy V]

Back to the title.

I expect us to be close to finals this year as I expect us to come home strong in the second half of the year. The new reserves will make a difference by then.

It’s next year I expect us to make finals and then anything can happen.

 

[Rich01]

The last 4 years must have come just in time for you then

Here they all come.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Bullshit. Match-fitness is far different from having a 'tank' (whatever the f that means).

For example I can take the absolute piss playing 2's for 4 quarters but blow up by half time in the 1's due to faster pace, bigger bodies.

Tell that to your mate then, he brought up "tank"

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

To be perfectly honest I expect Carlolton to arrive well outside the Final 8.

Their future prospects will flatline.

 

[Yoda_]

Back to the title.

I expect us to be close to finals this year as I expect us to come home strong in the second half of the year. The new reserves will make a difference by then.

It’s next year I expect us to make finals and then anything can happen.

No disrespect but the pass appears to be finals, what happens if you miss?

Reset? Rebuild? Continue the same path?


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[btdg]

No disrespect but the pass appears to be finals, what happens if you miss?

Reset? Rebuild? Continue the same path?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What do you mean when you say ‘pass mark’? It’s not like we will be booted to the VFL if we don’t?

I suspect that just means sacking the coach. If so, maybe

And what happens next probably goes at the same pace regardless.

We are likely going to have a mini-reset at the end of this year (if not before) for a few reasons anyway. Murphy, Betts likely to retire, Casboult likely phased out for C Curnow/TDK, and Ed Curnow probably phased out of midfield = 4-5 changes to the 22 that are inevitable and a seriously different looking forward line

Then, it depends on what happens with McKay/Cripps. Most likely they stay but if both go it is suddenly quite a big reset. Throw in a few others who might want a fresh start or who the club moved on (Kennedy and a few young guys) - could well be 6-7 changes to the best 22 for rd 1 next year, and that’s probably happening no matter what.

Whether that’s a ‘major rebuild’, ‘mini reset’ or the final step on the current path will probably depend on our ladder position despite being inevitable really...

 

[jansey]

Serious question. Why does the media give this club so much credit and regularly talk about them being on the verge of jumping into a finals position? After tonight's result, they've started the last nine seasons 0-2.

Their results in the last 20 years:

2001 - 5th (semi final)
2002 - 16th (wooden spoon)
2003 - 15th
2004 - 11th
2005 - 16th (wooden spoon)
2006 - 16th (wooden spoon)
2007 - 15th
2008 - 11th
2009 - 7th (elimination final)
2010 - 8th (elimination final)

2011 - 5th (semi final)
2012 - 10th
2013 - 8th (semi final)
2014 - 13th
2015 - 18th (wooden spoon)
2016 - 14th
2017 - 16th
2018 - 18th (wooden spoon)
2019 - 16th
2020 - 11th

Three finals wins, five finals appearances (their most recent of which they didn't really earn), five wooden spoons, nine bottom 4 finishes and six mid-ladder finishes that were outside the finals.

Essendon cop a lot of grief for their lack of success in the last 20 years yet they've had double the amount of finals wins Carlton have had in the last 20 years and have received 1/5 of the amount of wooden spoons Carlton have.

I know my club has performed poorly for the last 10 years as well but the media have never really talked us up as finals chances but Carlton are constantly getting pumped up by the media.

I don't get it. What's with the media love affair for Carlton?

 

[jansey]

My guess is that Carlton is a massive club and attracts readership and consequently advertising revenue.

 

[Ambrosia]

My guess is that Carlton is a massive club and attracts readership and consequently advertising revenue.

I think it’s more to do with if they pump you up it makes the failures more news worthy.

 

[Bluechip66]

We will arrive whenever we damn well please!!!!

 

[Rich01]

What do you mean when you say ‘pass mark’? It’s not like we will be booted to the VFL if we don’t?

I suspect that just means sacking the coach. If so, maybe

And what happens next probably goes at the same pace regardless.

We are likely going to have a mini-reset at the end of this year (if not before) for a few reasons anyway. Murphy, Betts likely to retire, Casboult likely phased out for C Curnow/TDK, and Ed Curnow probably phased out of midfield = 4-5 changes to the 22 that are inevitable and a seriously different looking forward line

Then, it depends on what happens with McKay/Cripps. Most likely they stay but if both go it is suddenly quite a big reset. Throw in a few others who might want a fresh start or who the club moved on (Kennedy and a few young guys) - could well be 6-7 changes to the best 22 for rd 1 next year, and that’s probably happening no matter what.

Whether that’s a ‘major rebuild’, ‘mini reset’ or the final step on the current path will probably depend on our ladder position despite being inevitable really...

Mini reset? Major rebuild? These should be words clubs had success and are starting their fall have.

Sacking the coach, again?

This doesn’t sound like a successful rebuild.

Are Carlton fans happy with their clubs progress?

 

[Soapy V]

No disrespect but the pass appears to be finals, what happens if you miss?

Reset? Rebuild? Continue the same path?

Pass mark is improvement. Way too early in season for anyone to assess.

As I have said it's the second half of the year I expect real improvement and at years end we will clear out the older players and balance our list with some talls and some good draft picks. I expect about 6-8 changes

I expect a real change in our coaching structure/personnel but Teague to stay.

 

[btdg]

Mini reset? Major rebuild? These should be words clubs had success and are starting their fall have.

Sacking the coach, again?

This doesn’t sound like a successful rebuild.

Are Carlton fans happy with their clubs progress?

No? Look at the Carlton board and you will see a general level of frustration.

We all understand these things take time and it’s not a linear process, particularly when the base you start from is so low.

It’s not black and white though and a lot more complex than 90% of people dropping into this thread to say ‘Huh, huh, huh Carlton sux’. The club has made a lot of progress in some areas, is still of the pace in others and had a bit of bad luck to boot.

 

[Rich01]

No? Look at the Carlton board and you will see a general level of frustration.

We all understand these things take time and it’s not a linear process, particularly when the base you start from is so low.

It’s not black and white though and a lot more complex than 90% of people dropping into this thread to say ‘Huh, huh, huh Carlton sux’. The club has made a lot of progress in some areas, is still of the pace in others and had a bit of bad luck to boot.

I totally agree. But if the club does require a ‘mini reset’ which costs Teague his job, the rebuild has basically cleaned out two head coaches, the director of football, the president, the ceo and the list manager. All key personnel have lost their positions in this ‘rebuild’.

Sundays result will probably determine which direction the club will decide to take for this season. Teague will be looking to play his most experienced team for this one.

 

[Robertio]

I totally agree. But if the club does require a ‘mini reset’ which costs Teague his job, the rebuild has basically cleaned out two head coaches, the director of football, the president, the ceo and the list manager. All key personnel have lost their positions in this ‘rebuild’.

Sundays result will probably determine which direction the club will decide to take for this season. Teague will be looking to play his most experienced team for this one.

The president?

 

[btdg]

I totally agree. But if the club does require a ‘mini reset’ which costs Teague his job, the rebuild has basically cleaned out two head coaches, the director of football, the president, the ceo and the list manager. All key personnel have lost their positions in this ‘rebuild’.

Sundays result will probably determine which direction the club will decide to take for this season. Teague will be looking to play his most experienced team for this one.

That might be true but footy is a tough business and the path to success often takes a few twists and turns.

Again, things don’t have to be so black and white, win/fail. Bolton did a great job for 4 years AND it was time to move on. SilvagnI, Logiudici similar. Lots of building blocked needed from the low base we were at and we appreciate the progress and also see the frustration in some of the weaknesses. That’s life though.

Honestly this year - if we had Cripps and Docherty doing anything near their capacity there is a solid chance we are 3-3 or 4-2 heading into a winnable game against Essendon and with an easy fixture coming up. Beat the Bombers and hit form vs either Bulldogs or Melbourne and I think this thread looks totally different, even though I don’t think process wise anything will have changed. Somewhere in the next 3 weeks my prediction is we play out a genuine 50/50 game that comes down to a roll of the dice - and yet, the side of that coin we end in will have a massive impact on perspective. Again, footy is a tough business and little things and luck can play a big part.

The second half of this year will regardless of performance see a transition in the team that imo completes the ‘rebuild’ with the last vestiges of the 2005-8 crew gone, and the bulk of our new crop hitting peak age. It’ll either be ‘Carlton undergoing a mini-reset’ or ‘Carlton powering to finals powered by their youth’. But it’ll be the same players, same roles, either way. Funny business really...

Lots has gone right in the past 6 years. Lots has gone wrong. Next step is to keep growing and evolving and make the next 6 years even stronger

 

[TigerTime88]

I’d consider Weitering, Saad, Docherty, Curnow and Williams as A grade - elite talents. I would also add Fisher and Martin to that group but don’t expect you to agree. Problem is outside of Weitering most of that group is either injured and/or underperforming.

That we have only lost by 3-5 goals to some pretty seasoned contenders with so many struggling could almost be seen as a good thing. Need to start getting the most out of this group through conditioning and coaching to their strengths.

Agree with Weitering I have missed him. Saad is not an A grader in my opinion, neither is Docherty but handy players. Unfortunately I don’t think we are going to see Curnow at his peak. I thought Williams was a good pickup and could be an A grader but right now he is just a B grade player.

Fisher is miles off an A grader and Martin could be but has never really stepped up. Depends on how people rate grades but I would have thought AA level in my mind.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Agree with Weitering I have missed him. Saad is not an A grader in my opinion, neither is Docherty but handy players. Unfortunately I don’t think we are going to see Curnow at his peak. I thought Williams was a good pickup and could be an A grader but right now he is just a B grade player.

Fisher is miles off an A grader and Martin could be but has never really stepped up. Depends on how people rate grades but I would have thought AA level in my mind.

I reckon they’re all A grade talents and have shown they can play brilliant footy. Right now none are playing to their potential for whatever reasons (Weitering aside). Add Cripps to that list.

Plenty of room for improvement without even looking at our youngsters.

 

[AwwThatsApples]

Alright, enough ball s**t.

Here's what they need to do.

Put Liam Stocker IN THE CENTRE and bloody retire Marc Murphy already, he can't have consistent impact anywhere anymore.

Lachie Plowman is one of the weakest 1 on 1 defenders in the entire comp IMO. He doesn't deserve AFL time.

SPS is horribly overrated for a first-round pick and literally can't play anywhere. Give him one last chance up forward or delist.

Eddie Betts would've retired at the end of 2019 if Carlton didn't decide to throw free money down the drain on him, put time into the younger small forwards.

Levi Casboult... May as well play Cripps at CHF the way he's going. Needs to move over, can't even compare to big Harry.

Mitch Mcgovern was a waste, a tiny bit better than Casboult, but still needs to have more forward impact.

I honestly think Cripps needs to go forward so he can make room in the midfield for the younger picks Carlton has refused to give thorough time to, he's of a decent height so should be able to help pitch in.

All in all, this is a list with a couple of diamonds in the rough (Walsh, Mackay, Weitering, Jones, Saad) but some seriously horrible and at times bottom 4 worthy list depth which has continued to leak into the best 22. The next few years in the draft need to be clean for Carlton. Curnow and Gibbons will only work in the 22 if the rest of the list is top class, and Cripps and Docherty, while brilliant individual performers in their own rights are not standing up as particularly noble leaders at the moment, the leadership at Carlton will need to change before long without a doubt.

Yeah to summarize lots of work to do, and plenty of players who need to be binned.

 

[btdg]

Agree with Weitering I have missed him. Saad is not an A grader in my opinion, neither is Docherty but handy players. Unfortunately I don’t think we are going to see Curnow at his peak. I thought Williams was a good pickup and could be an A grader but right now he is just a B grade player.

Fisher is miles off an A grader and Martin could be but has never really stepped up. Depends on how people rate grades but I would have thought AA level in my mind.

AA level (form/injury dependent) is a fair standard imo.

On that basis Carlton has only 1 A-grader at present - Cripps

Docherty was an A grader pre-injury but has unfortunately not shown that since returning.

Weitering and Saad have both been close but not quite. McKay is potentially an A-grader but needs to sustain current form. Curnow is a wildcard.

Martin and Williams are definitely B graders and won’t ever be AA level (and that’s ok). Fisher is their equal and at times this year was our most dynamic player (pre injury- uggh).

It’s honestly not impossible that a form/confidence/injury reversal sees Carlton with 5-6x A-graders within 12 months - it really isn’t inconceivable that Cripps and Docherty find form, McKay and Weitering go up another notch, Saad has his best season playing for a winning team and Curnow comes back strong. That’s more than enough to compete for a premiership. Separate topic, but our depth is excellent too, imo.

That’s the frustration and the premise of this thread imo. On paper there is enough there. On the field performances have been atrocious

 

[Soapy V]

Agree with Weitering I have missed him. Saad is not an A grader in my opinion, neither is Docherty but handy players. Unfortunately I don’t think we are going to see Curnow at his peak. I thought Williams was a good pickup and could be an A grader but right now he is just a B grade player.

Fisher is miles off an A grader and Martin could be but has never really stepped up. Depends on how people rate grades but I would have thought AA level in my mind.

I would consider Cripps Weitering Jones Saad Docherty Charlie Williams McKay Walsh as A graders in their rightful positions

Martin Jack Gibbons Pittonet Newman Plowman although maybe not A grade are good AFL players and can do a good job. Martin if fit could be A grade.

That's a very solid core. What is now needed is several of TDK Dow LOB Stocker Carroll Kemp Setterfield Ramsay Philp Honey Cuningham Fisher SPS Fogarty step up to that level and a number be good role players.

Do that and we are in a great position. Doesn't take much. For all the opinions until they do none of us can be sure.

IMO the talent is there. Just needs to develop and step up

 

[Soapy V]

Alright, enough ball sh*t.

Here's what they need to do.

Put Liam Stocker IN THE CENTRE and bloody retire Marc Murphy already, he can't have consistent impact anywhere anymore.

Lachie Plowman is one of the weakest 1 on 1 defenders in the entire comp IMO. He doesn't deserve AFL time.

SPS is horribly overrated for a first-round pick and literally can't play anywhere. Give him one last chance up forward or delist.

Eddie Betts would've retired at the end of 2019 if Carlton didn't decide to throw free money down the drain on him, put time into the younger small forwards.

Levi Casboult... May as well play Cripps at CHF the way he's going. Needs to move over, can't even compare to big Harry.

Mitch Mcgovern was a waste, a tiny bit better than Casboult, but still needs to have more forward impact.

I honestly think Cripps needs to go forward so he can make room in the midfield for the younger picks Carlton has refused to give thorough time to, he's of a decent height so should be able to help pitch in.

All in all, this is a list with a couple of diamonds in the rough (Walsh, Mackay, Weitering, Jones, Saad) but some seriously horrible and at times bottom 4 worthy list depth which has continued to leak into the best 22. The next few years in the draft need to be clean for Carlton. Curnow and Gibbons will only work in the 22 if the rest of the list is top class, and Cripps and Docherty, while brilliant individual performers in their own rights are not standing up as particularly noble leaders at the moment, the leadership at Carlton will need to change before long without a doubt.

Yeah to summarize lots of work to do, and plenty of players who need to be binned.

Some fair comments

Stocker will go into the middle at some stage. No doubt. I'd do it now but Teague won't

SPS can play. He has it but need to toughen up and open his eyes. Wing/HF is his go

Betts, Murphy, Casboult need to go. Part of a poor culture and past it. Don't help one bit

IMO McGovern is a defender. He is fit now but needs to step up. Has the ability, does he have the heart?

Gibbons is a very good midfielder. When he gets it things happen. Wasted across HF. Give him a go helping Cripps & Walsh

Setterfield needs to come back and as a inside mid. The kid can play. Why he was on a wing defies logic.

 

[Robertio]

Alright, enough ball sh*t.

Here's what they need to do.

Put Liam Stocker IN THE CENTRE and bloody retire Marc Murphy already, he can't have consistent impact anywhere anymore.

Lachie Plowman is one of the weakest 1 on 1 defenders in the entire comp IMO. He doesn't deserve AFL time.

SPS is horribly overrated for a first-round pick and literally can't play anywhere. Give him one last chance up forward or delist.

Eddie Betts would've retired at the end of 2019 if Carlton didn't decide to throw free money down the drain on him, put time into the younger small forwards.

Levi Casboult... May as well play Cripps at CHF the way he's going. Needs to move over, can't even compare to big Harry.

Mitch Mcgovern was a waste, a tiny bit better than Casboult, but still needs to have more forward impact.

I honestly think Cripps needs to go forward so he can make room in the midfield for the younger picks Carlton has refused to give thorough time to, he's of a decent height so should be able to help pitch in.

All in all, this is a list with a couple of diamonds in the rough (Walsh, Mackay, Weitering, Jones, Saad) but some seriously horrible and at times bottom 4 worthy list depth which has continued to leak into the best 22. The next few years in the draft need to be clean for Carlton. Curnow and Gibbons will only work in the 22 if the rest of the list is top class, and Cripps and Docherty, while brilliant individual performers in their own rights are not standing up as particularly noble leaders at the moment, the leadership at Carlton will need to change before long without a doubt.

Yeah to summarize lots of work to do, and plenty of players who need to be binned.

On the mark mate.

 

[Joao]

Williams definitely isn't an A grader playing midfield. Looks B- at best.

He might give A grade a shake in good form at half back though.

 

[Soapy V]

Williams definitely isn't an A grader playing midfield. Looks B- at best.

He might give A grade a shake in good form at half back though.

A grade running defender. A HB line of Williams Weitering Saad would be as good as any.

Good midfielder but not great