Society/Culture Jordan B Peterson

[Chief]

This is the very left wing view of mental illness.

Whaaaat?

 

[Seeds]

Whaaaat?

Do you believe depression is due 1) solely to bad luck or 2) partly your own fault?

i believe the latter. Im guessing as a lefty that you believe the former.

 

[FireKrakouer]

ITT the "stop being anti-science!" left have suddenly become the "biology is BS" left. The alphas are the ones breeding, and I'm sorry to they are mostly RW.

 

[Chief]

Do you believe depression is 1) solely bad luck or 2) partly your own fault?

i believe the latter. Im guessing as a lefty that you believe the former.

I believe that there are a lot of factors, and apportioning blame is pointless. Nobody is sitting around thinking "Yes! This is the one thing that will give me the depression I have always wanted!"

We don't know enough about it to pin it on one cause or even to have a one-size-fits-all, 12 point treatment plan.

Just about any drug treatment for anything is "bomb the system with this chemical, it often works". Sometimes that is inexact, but needed.

 

[FireKrakouer]

Do you believe depression is due 1) solely to bad luck or 2) partly your own fault?

i believe the latter. Im guessing as a lefty that you believe the former.

It's a mixture. People can lift themselves out of a mental illness rut if they really want. But it's harder than you can possibly imagine if you haven't been there.

I think it's mostly genetics, coupled with some traumas that cause severe mental illness I think.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

ITT the "stop being anti-science!" left have suddenly become the "biology is BS" left. The alphas are the ones breeding, and I'm sorry to they are mostly RW.

Lack of education is also a reliable predictor of having more children.

 

[Taylor]

Lack of education is also a reliable predictor of having more children.

Particularly education in women. But that also inversely correlates to poverty.

 

[FireKrakouer]

Lack of education is also a reliable predictor of having more children.

Damn right. We blue collar bogans shall inherit the earth. How many kids you gonna have? 0?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Damn right. We blue collar bogans shall inherit the earth. How many kids you gonna have? 0?

So you agree you're uneducated?

 

[FireKrakouer]

So you agree you're uneducated?

Secondary school completed. Commerce degree. Qualified sparky + cert IV in airconditioning, 3 solar/battery licenses, etc.

I am no academic, but I'd probably myself as someone who is "educated" relatively speaking.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Secondary school completed. Commerce degree. Qualified sparky + cert IV in airconditioning, 3 solar/battery licenses, etc.

I am no academic, but I'd probably myself as someone who is "educated" relatively speaking.

So how do you explain knowing so little?

 

[FireKrakouer]

So how do you explain knowing so little?

Well I slept through most of the commerce degree but still passed.. So I'm an expert on most types of electrical wiring, but the rest I learn from here on bf.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Well I slept through most of the commerce degree but still passed.. So I'm an expert on most types of electrical wiring, but the rest I learn from here on bf.

Where did you learn that the essence of being conservative involves liking Christmas?

 

[FireKrakouer]

Where did you learn that the essence of being conservative involves liking Christmas?

The school of hard knocks m8. AKA life.

 

[Seeds]

I believe that there are a lot of factors, and apportioning blame is pointless. Nobody is sitting around thinking "Yes! This is the one thing that will give me the depression I have always wanted!"

We don't know enough about it to pin it on one cause or even to have a one-size-fits-all, 12 point treatment plan.

Just about any drug treatment for anything is "bomb the system with this chemical, it often works". Sometimes that is inexact, but needed.

when you say blame do you mean simply causal or the lefty magical negative bad word version whatever that means?

i only use the former and if the former then we should very much try to find the cause of ones depression as that’s the only way we can treat it. It’s the opposite of pointless. It’s the number one thing we should do.

depression is a chemical imbalance that can be treated by 1) changing external factors that may of triggered ones negative thought process that created the chemical imbalance, 2) ignoring the external factors (it may not be possible to change them back) and just changing ones thought process, or 3)directly treating the chemical imbalance through drugs. in most cases you can fix the depression by focusing on just one of these 3 levels. You don’t need to treat All of them. Just one of them. Cognitive theory focuses on changing ones thought process and has been found to be extremely successful. We know that it works. The main problem is that people can be unwilling to change their worldview. But if they can then it works extremely well.


in some rare cases depression isn’t created from an external event or a negative thought process. It’s solely a result of a chemical imbalance. In these cases you can only focus on fixing the chemistry in ones head. This is an extremely rare sole driver Of depression however. As without modern drugs the only outcome is death And humans have evolved to not kill themselves without cause. In almost all cases the other two factors are in play. And that will be the case with Peterson given it appears his depression was triggered by a combination of the tragedy of wife’s death and inability to deal with his new found fame.

if it’s externally triggered then thought process is involved and it can be fixed with the power of thought on its own. Drugs can assist but he should be able to use thought alone. But he can’t. Cause he is no self help guru. He is a fraud.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

The school of hard knocks m8. AKA life.

Unfortunately your "street smarts" weren't enough to prevent you being "sold" on a fake billionaire grifter with a golden toilet.

 

[Seeds]

It's a mixture. People can lift themselves out of a mental illness rut if they really want. But it's harder than you can possibly imagine if you haven't been there.

I think it's mostly genetics, coupled with some traumas that cause severe mental illness I think.

sounds like it’s only the degrees that we disagree on.

I think genetics only plays a small role. it doesn’t make evolutionary sense for it to have large variability across people and be a major driver.

I think ones own Worldview and our perceived role in the world is by far the biggest driver. Changing ones view of the world and their perceived position in it can be very hard. But if it can be done and changed in the right direction almost everyone can escape depression.

external factors (I.e. death of loved ones, physical health concerns or severe loss of social status) also matter and are major triggers but thought process is what ultimately matters and can undo the severe impact of all these external events.

both Buddhism and cognitive therapy are extremely successful to rid one of depression and they both focus on thought process.

 

[Seeds]

ITT the "stop being anti-science!" left have suddenly become the "biology is BS" left. The alphas are the ones breeding, and I'm sorry to they are mostly RW.

The first point you make has been a problem since the 60s when lefty protestors used to attack biologists and try to get them banned from universities because they simply didn’t like the findings of their peer reviewed empirical research. It didn’t fit with their worldview.

the second point is probably not correct. Women tend to procreate with men with high social status but In our modern world that’s now mostly the people with university degrees. and universities tend to spit out lefties.

the very rise of trump has been driven by all the unskilled men in the manufacturing belt and on the farms and in the mines losing their social status. They don’t get the women now like they used to despite having more wealth Then back in the 50s because the wealth of the university graduates has grown way faster then theirs.

 

[Chief]

when you say blame do you mean simply causal or the lefty magical negative bad word version whatever that means?

I don't know what you mean there.

There are causes, but you can't always know them.

There are actions.

Actions have consequences. You can't always even know which actions lead to which consequences.

Blame is sprinkled in there a bit too heavily from some quarters.

 

[FireKrakouer]

when you say blame do you mean simply causal or the lefty magical negative bad word version whatever that means?

i only use the former and if the former then we should very much try to find the cause of ones depression as that’s the only way we can treat it. It’s the opposite of pointless. It’s the number one thing we should do.

depression is a chemical imbalance that can be treated by 1) changing external factors that may of triggered ones negative thought process that created the chemical imbalance, 2) ignoring the external factors (it may not be possible to change them back) and just changing ones thought process, or 3)directly treating the chemical imbalance through drugs. in most cases you can fix the depression by focusing on just one of these 3 levels. You don’t need to treat All of them. Just one of them. Cognitive theory focuses on changing ones thought process and has been found to be extremely successful. We know that it works. The main problem is that people can be unwilling to change their worldview. But if they can then it works extremely well.


in some rare cases depression isn’t created from an external event or a negative thought process. It’s solely a result of a chemical imbalance. In these cases you can only focus on fixing the chemistry in ones head. This is an extremely rare sole driver Of depression however. As without modern drugs the only outcome is death And humans have evolved to not kill themselves without cause. In almost all cases the other two factors are in play. And that will be the case with Peterson given it appears his depression was triggered by a combination of the tragedy of wife’s death and inability to deal with his new found fame.

if it’s externally triggered then thought process is involved and it can be fixed with the power of thought on its own. Drugs can assist but he should be able to use thought alone. But he can’t. Cause he is no self help guru. He is a fraud.

Citation required here. You're making bold claims that even modern medicine is yet to address.

sounds like it’s only the degrees that we disagree on.

I think genetics only plays a small role. it doesn’t make evolutionary sense for it to have large variability across people and be a major driver.

I think ones own Worldview and our perceived role in the world is by far the biggest driver. Changing ones view of the world and their perceived position in it can be very hard. But if it can be done and changed in the right direction almost everyone can escape depression.

external factors (I.e. death of loved ones, physical health concerns or severe loss of social status) also matter and are major triggers but thought process is what ultimately matters and can undo the severe impact of all these external events.

both Buddhism and cognitive therapy are extremely successful to rid one of depression and they both focus on thought process.

It's not all about "evolution". 2 points:

- Most suicides are young men aged 20 - 30. Even at the lower end, that's plenty of time to have reproduced.

- Society has changed so much that traditional Darwinism no longer makes sense. Compare the pug with the wolf. My guess is the extra screen time millennials have had. Instead of reading books, going out and socialising, we play crappy video games and abuse people on bf. That's nothing to do with biology, it is evolution that has moved too quickly.

You must argue LGBT people should have been left behind by evolution?

 

[ferball]

You must be beating them off with a stick!

Is that a double entendre?

 

[Taylor]

the second point is probably not correct. Women tend to procreate with men with high social status but In our modern world that’s now mostly the people with university degrees. and universities tend to spit out lefties.

Not in the degrees that pay the big money, generally speaking. Plus women have a degree too.

There is actually a problem for women finding a suitable man when they are already so capable and independent, there is an argument to be made that they still want their man to be achieving higher than them and those that don't want that are projecting a resentment and don't respect men in the first place.

 

[Seeds]

Not in the degrees that pay the big money, generally speaking. Plus women have a degree too.

There is actually a problem for women finding a suitable man when they are already so capable and independent, there is an argument to be made that they still want their man to be achieving higher than them and those that don't want that are projecting a resentment and don't respect men in the first place.

Thé identitarians and socialists are overwehlmingly art students but those doing medical degrees, commerce, stem and engineering are mostly classical liberals. I.e still lefties even if the hard core lefties pretend they aren’t. They tend to supoort climate action, anti discrimination policies, are atheists or only weakly follow religion and believe in human rights and freeing the refugees. Where they are more mixed between the left and right is on economic policy. but most still believe in the concept of the welfare state. Just the degree of welfare that differs. Most believe in free trade and globalisation and foreign aid and support immigration.

 

[Run n Spread]

kudos to thinking about this on a deeper level. I agree with what you say but don’t think it gets to the heart of the problem.

in very simplistic terms there appears two views on the drivers of mental illness.

1) it’s solely an uncontrollable chemical process thats mostly due to bad luck and there is nothing you can do about it but treat the chemical process. This is the very left wing view of mental illness.

2) it’s driven by your thought processes. You have control over your emotional outcomes through thought alone. This is the libertarian view. This is the Buddhist view. This is the view advocated by psychologists and self help gurus.

the reality is in between. I believe we all have different proclivities to uncontrollable depression inducing chemicals but the power of the mind can overcome this in almost all people with the right information from accurate self help guides.

So if you are self help guru and you experience extreme depression then the answer in almost all such examples would be that your rules to life are wrong. You are a fraud and should not be writing books on the topic. Instead you should be seeking out your own help from someone who does.

peterson is not advocating he overcame his mental depression with mental thought. he is not saying he got his rules wrong but has figured out new rules that helped him recover. Instead he advocates the very left wing approach to mental illness. Nothing but Drugs. He dismisses his own profession. this also makes him a fraud as he sells mental self help but does not believe in it for himself.

he has said recently that the only thing that kept him living was love for his family. A self help guru whose solution to avoid killing yourself is family love??? You people would pay for such advice? And how does that help people who have no close family? Should they just kill themselves cos they have nothing to live for.

this guy should not be giving advice on how to live life. He has not figured it out. He should be seeking help instead. He is extremely unwell mentally.

Depression is genetic 40% event trigger 15 circumstances environment quality of relationships 45% imo.
Peterson is a clinical psychologist who has researched treated thousands of patients and done a PhD on addiction. He is speaking as a clinician and researcher.
I personally would be treated by him. Even with his issues it gives him a broader understanding. Kind of like bad footy players can make great coaches.
I don't agree with everything he says and he can be data centric but he does back up what he says and reasons well. Which is what 95% don't do imo. Most just fill in the gaps and are incapable of seeing a different perspective not directed at you btw.
Always found the hatred of him bizarre. But equally the hero worship is weird as well.

 

[Run n Spread]

Particularly education in women. But that also inversely correlates to poverty.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.
Are poor women breeding because they're dumb or they want kids?
An alternate theory is educated women have more wealth and options so don't want the sacrifices associated with a family. Especially if they can't find a mate as you posted above.
When discussing welfare poor mums there is a myth that if these women stopped having kids they would end up educated and rich. Not necessarily the case