List Mgmt. Trade and F/A - Part 3

[Billys Back]

So you think we can get Weideman for basically nothing. You are dreaming, Melbourne are not Collingwood they class him as key position they will want at least a second and third rounder for him .So who would you trade for him Cox, Thomas, Hoskin Elliot, Jamie Elliot ? All these players aren't worth much on open market maybe only Jamie Elliot but he is injury prone and older. We have no draft picks because the brains trust at the pies have put us back years and years, in salary cap and draft picks.'In fact our salary cap is so damaged that we may still have to let a player of some note go and years end to clear more space

Our way out of the wilderness will take a few years at least, tell me which player of value will want to come to Collingwood presently after they draft debarcle and the exiting of Treloar etc. Even current players at the club are on tenderhooks, look at the way they are playing Our only way is to build through the draft unless we trade off a Degoey or Moore which i would not do.

Melbourne basically paid a pick in the high 20s for Brown. A proven key forward who had kicked 60 goals a season. A key forward they prefer over Weideman.
So do you still really think they will want both a 2nd and a 3rd for their key forward who has really only played a couple of good games in the seniors over his career and can’t break in?
Do you think he would be happy to stay at Melbourne knowing he has been kicking goals in the VFL but seems to be behind Brown? If he demands a trade, I’m sure Melbourne will be forced to make it happen and will take a 3rd round pick for him

 

[whiskeytown]

Melbourne basically paid a pick in the high 20s for Brown. A proven key forward who had kicked 60 goals a season. A key forward they prefer over Weideman.
So do you still really think they will want both a 2nd and a 3rd for their key forward who has really only played a couple of good games in the seniors over his career and can’t break in?
Do you think he would be happy to stay at Melbourne knowing he has been kicking goals in the VFL but seems to be behind Brown? If he demands a trade, I’m sure Melbourne will be forced to make it happen and will take a 3rd round pick for him

Mitch Brown is getting a go ahead of Weideman because Weideman is coming off a Stress fracture to his leg in February. So he’s preseason was interrupted and they have probably been content just taking their time with Weideman in the VFL.

Give it weeks and Brown will be in the VFL, Weideman in the AFL... and suddenly people will realise he’s worth more than a 3rd pick.

Weideman was top 10 in the league for marks inside 50 per game in 2020

2020 AFL League Marks Inside 50 Per Game Leaders

2020 AFL League Marks Inside 50 Per Game Leaders.

www.footywire.com

He’s no spud.

If Melbourne is letting go of any big forward at years end for a 3rd rd pick, it will be Mitch Brown

Weideman will cost a pick in the 20s

 

[Quicky]

Mitch Brown is getting a go ahead of Weideman because Weideman is coming off a Stress fracture to his leg in February. So he’s preseason was interrupted and they have probably been content just taking their time with Weideman in the VFL.

Give it weeks and Brown will be in the VFL, Weideman in the AFL... and suddenly people will realise he’s worth more than a 3rd pick.

Weideman was top 10 in the league for marks inside 50 per game in 2020

2020 AFL League Marks Inside 50 Per Game Leaders

2020 AFL League Marks Inside 50 Per Game Leaders.

www.footywire.com

He’s no spud.

If Melbourne is letting go of any big forward at years end for a 3rd rd pick, it will be Mitch Brown

Weideman will cost a pick in the 20s

I don't think Weid is worth a pick in the 20's. If he is valued that by Melb it'd be a firm pass from me. His output (goals) doesn't justify it. It'd be another example of overpaying for an average talent.

 

[Billys Back]

Mitch Brown is getting a go ahead of Weideman because Weideman is coming off a Stress fracture to his leg in February. So he’s preseason was interrupted and they have probably been content just taking their time with Weideman in the VFL.

Give it weeks and Brown will be in the VFL, Weideman in the AFL... and suddenly people will realise he’s worth more than a 3rd pick.

Weideman was top 10 in the league for marks inside 50 per game in 2020

2020 AFL League Marks Inside 50 Per Game Leaders

2020 AFL League Marks Inside 50 Per Game Leaders.

www.footywire.com

He’s no spud.

If Melbourne is letting go of any big forward at years end for a 3rd rd pick, it will be Mitch Brown

Weideman will cost a pick in the 20s

Mitch?

 

[Billys Back]

Mitch Brown is getting a go ahead of Weideman because Weideman is coming off a Stress fracture to his leg in February. So he’s preseason was interrupted and they have probably been content just taking their time with Weideman in the VFL.

Give it weeks and Brown will be in the VFL, Weideman in the AFL... and suddenly people will realise he’s worth more than a 3rd pick.

Weideman was top 10 in the league for marks inside 50 per game in 2020

2020 AFL League Marks Inside 50 Per Game Leaders

2020 AFL League Marks Inside 50 Per Game Leaders.

www.footywire.com

He’s no spud.

If Melbourne is letting go of any big forward at years end for a 3rd rd pick, it will be Mitch Brown

Weideman will cost a pick in the 20s

Brown over 60 goals in each year 2017, 2018, 2019.

 

[Apex36]

Mitch Brown is getting a go ahead of Weideman because Weideman is coming off a Stress fracture to his leg in February. So he’s preseason was interrupted and they have probably been content just taking their time with Weideman in the VFL.

Give it weeks and Brown will be in the VFL, Weideman in the AFL... and suddenly people will realise he’s worth more than a 3rd pick.

Weideman was top 10 in the league for marks inside 50 per game in 2020

2020 AFL League Marks Inside 50 Per Game Leaders

2020 AFL League Marks Inside 50 Per Game Leaders.

www.footywire.com

He’s no spud.

If Melbourne is letting go of any big forward at years end for a 3rd rd pick, it will be Mitch Brown

Weideman will cost a pick in the 20s

They’re in no position to be demanding overs for an uncontracted player who could potentially walk through the PSD.

 

[Apex36]

Brown over 60 goals in each year 2017, 2018, 2019.

That’s Ben Brown. Mitch Brown is a different person.

 

[Billys Back]

That’s Ben Brown. Mitch Brown is a different person.

Yeah but I made the point that Ben Brown was picked up by effectively a pick around 28. He responded with Mitch. Just showing that a player who kicked over 60 goals a season in 2017, 2018, 2019 cost Melbourne a late 20s and this guy thinks Mitch (who was delisted) would command a 3rd and Wiedeman would be effectively the same cost at one of the leading goal kickers in the comp.

 

[Hairydawg]

Some reports suggest our salary cap remains tight (let that sink in for a minute) though we may some flexibility.

Really though unless the opportunity is to good to refuse and by that I mean the player is a genuine A grader and the opposition club is prepared to accept free agency compensation as trade I don't feel it's wise to stretch our salary cap capacity so soon or use any 2022 draft selections as currency after the off season we have just had.

The reality is paying a premium for a single player is highly unlikely to see us surge back up the ladder in the short term and with players like Moore and de Goey coming off contract at the end next season keeping some flexibility in our ability to meet their wage demands or match opposition offers and potentially force a better trade deal than free agency compensation would provide is desirable IMO.

Getting games and development into the kids secured across the last few drafts, obtaining N.Daicos at the end of this year and maximising our draft intake as much as possible for the next couple of years is probably the way forward and only when the time is right do we look to secure established talent.

This is absolutely the right approach. But because it’s Collingwood, and ‘supporters’ expect success now, and openly criticise our own club, it absolutely won’t happen.


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[Hairydawg]

Bit of dry humour too him as well. Ive always had time for him. You listen to the way the likes of Nick Reiwoldt, Lenny Hayes and co talk of him and thats enough for me rather than nuffies

I always used to watch Bucks, then Lyon presser. If time, then Clarkson. Lots to learn in the way the three of them handle questions. All excellent communicators with some fire in the belly.


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[brysie]

I think most supporter-bases criticise their own club. Very few are content to ‘trust the process’.

The overall approach ought to be to build through the draft, however this should not prevent us from acquiring free agents, as long as it fits within a longer term cap strategy.

If McKay or Cripps were available, noting Carlton may be facing a cap squeeze, would you pull the trigger on a deal of say $800k/5 years?

 

[whiskeytown]

They’re in no position to be demanding overs for an uncontracted player who could potentially walk through the PSD.

Jarryd Witts was out of contract when he was traded to Gold Coast for pick 44 & 62. But many on here complain the club didn’t get more for him.

Boards saying that young opposition out of contract KPP are worth nothing, but their own young out of contract KPP are picks in the 20s. That’s Bigfooty!

 

[Apex36]

Jarryd Witts was out of contract when he was traded to Gold Coast for pick 44 & 62. But many on here complain the club didn’t get more for him.

Which kind of supports my point?

Boards saying that young opposition out of contract KPP are worth nothing, but their own young out of contract KPP are picks in the 20s. That’s Bigfooty!

Witts was worth a mid to late second, comfortably, which is around Weideman’s current value.

 

[stormskye]

north melb did a Collingwood and made public they didn’t want brown. Which on top of his knee concerns is why they for a packet of chips for him. Weideman is not on the outer at Melb, they just have a great list. Weid would be a walk up start into our best 22. Which says enough of the list management of the two clubs. Melbourne seem to know how to draft KPP, something we are allergic to. We won’t be the only suitor, so people saying they will get a 3rd rounder is fanciful

 

[Johno9911]

A bit of a left field one, but one worth monitoring in my eye's is Rhylee West from the Dogs. A father-son pick that hasn't been given much exposure and the West family (particularly Scott) haven't been subtle in their disappointment that Rhylee hasn't been playing much.

Was one of the best inside/contested mids in his draft year and if he we could get him for a token pick, he could be a wonderful young addition to our midfield as another tough, contested mid to partner with Tay.

 

[Apex36]

north melb did a Collingwood and made public they didn’t want brown. Which on top of his knee concerns is why they for a packet of chips for him. Weideman is not on the outer at Melb, they just have a great list. Weid would be a walk up start into our best 22. Which says enough of the list management of the two clubs. Melbourne seem to know how to draft KPP, something we are allergic to. We won’t be the only suitor, so people saying they will get a 3rd rounder is fanciful

Do they? 3 out of their 4 current best KPP’s were traded in to their club, not drafted.

 

[loki04]

I like Lyon. He's got a bit of class about him too.

Big no for me for Lyon (or Roos or another def first protege).

Has only taken over lists after rebuilds have been all but completed.

Shocking record with building them.

Is another defense first coach who you'd rather stick needles in your eyes then watch might as well stick with Buckley.

People say with luck he would of won a flag, with luck so would Buckley, roos only just won one with some luck.
They all have a gameplan designed around being competitive but never really a dominant team based off attack they look to pinch a flag never build an era of flags. Like Rich Geelong Lions Hawks and lesser 90s Ess Norf Crows Carl.

Attacking teams give the best chance at multi flags yes they all had great defense too but they weren't solely focussed and built around it.

That Saints team should of won a couple flags but the overly defensive nature actually worked against the list talents.
Grant Thomas was on the right path he just needed help to bring a bit of defensive balance imo.

 

[loki04]

Some reports suggest our salary cap remains tight (let that sink in for a minute) though we may some flexibility.

Really though unless the opportunity is to good to refuse and by that I mean the player is a genuine A grader and the opposition club is prepared to accept free agency compensation as trade I don't feel it's wise to stretch our salary cap capacity so soon or use any 2022 draft selections as currency after the off season we have just had.

The reality is paying a premium for a single player is highly unlikely to see us surge back up the ladder in the short term and with players like Moore and de Goey coming off contract at the end next season keeping some flexibility in our ability to meet their wage demands or match opposition offers and potentially force a better trade deal than free agency compensation would provide is desirable IMO.

Getting games and development into the kids secured across the last few drafts, obtaining N.Daicos at the end of this year and maximising our draft intake as much as possible for the next couple of years is probably the way forward and only when the time is right do we look to secure established talent.

Agreed.

Poaching other players usually comes at a great cost both financially and trade wise.

We are in this mess imo because we went away from drafting and developing our own to looking to trade and use fa.

When your gun young players read about a 750k to 1.2 mil 5 year plus deals they themselves can't be asked to take pay cuts so it's not just the new players dollars effected.

 

[loki04]

I never understand the hate for Ross Lyon. With luck out of his control hes a 2 time premiership coach. Paul Roos coached the same way, jagged 1 that could of been 0 and hes some sort of messiah. The Saints mangaged to kick big scores under him when the had the cattle to do it. Just my opinion

Its a horrible game plan and relies on luck or "pinching" a flag, never see a dynasty or multi flag team come from it or even go into a GF feeling like the more confident side as the defense at all costs always keeps the opposition in the game.

He also has a horrible history when the clubs had to be rebuilt, has only succeeded relatively of course with pre established lists.

If we are looking at Lyon or another Roos chronie style coach then we might as well stick with mr defense himself Buckley.

 

[Pistol Night]

Its a horrible game plan and relies on luck or "pinching" a flag, never see a dynasty or multi flag team come from it or even go into a GF feeling like the more confident side as the defense at all costs always keeps the opposition in the game.

He also has a horrible history when the clubs had to be rebuilt, has only succeeded relatively of course with pre established lists.

If we are looking at Lyon or another Roos chronie style coach then we might as well stick with mr defense himself Buckley.

Fair enough. He got teams into grand finals 3 years out of 5 between 2009-2013. Not saying i want him to coach desperately, just saying wouldnt be shattered if he did. We're all allowed an opinion.

 

[Hotpiescoldbeers]

Mitch Brown is getting a go ahead of Weideman because Weideman is coming off a Stress fracture to his leg in February. So he’s preseason was interrupted and they have probably been content just taking their time with Weideman in the VFL.

Give it weeks and Brown will be in the VFL, Weideman in the AFL... and suddenly people will realise he’s worth more than a 3rd pick.

Weideman was top 10 in the league for marks inside 50 per game in 2020

2020 AFL League Marks Inside 50 Per Game Leaders

2020 AFL League Marks Inside 50 Per Game Leaders.

www.footywire.com

He’s no spud.

If Melbourne is letting go of any big forward at years end for a 3rd rd pick, it will be Mitch Brown

Weideman will cost a pick in the 20s

There’s no point in getting any forwards unless we get a new forwards coach and midfield coach . We could get the best forwards via trade and they would struggle due to a poor structures and gameplans

 

[loki04]

Fair enough. He got teams into grand finals 3 years out of 5 between 2009-2013. Not saying i want him to coach desperately, just saying wouldnt be shattered if he did. We're all allowed an opinion.

Yup he did but those teams were always destined to at least make a gf given the talent and age profiles of them.

Not having a go at you but my opinion is I hope the club stay well clear of this style of coach.
I couldn't stand to watch another team who can't put a score on the board.

 

[Apex36]

Fair enough. He got teams into grand finals 3 years out of 5 between 2009-2013. Not saying i want him to coach desperately, just saying wouldnt be shattered if he did. We're all allowed an opinion.

Loki is right though, he did that with teams where all the hard work had already been done. The rebuilds had both been done at StKilda and Freo before he was brought in, he just got to reap the rewards of the work the previous coaches had done. Not only that, but instead of trying to develop new talent to prolong his clubs dominance, he would play the established talent in to the ground and to the point where a full rebuild would be required within a couple of years, and then he’d still avoid playing the kids.

He’s that man you least want at the helm during a rebuild.

 

[Hazz]

A bit of a left field one, but one worth monitoring in my eye's is Rhylee West from the Dogs. A father-son pick that hasn't been given much exposure and the West family (particularly Scott) haven't been subtle in their disappointment that Rhylee hasn't been playing much.

Was one of the best inside/contested mids in his draft year and if he we could get him for a token pick, he could be a wonderful young addition to our midfield as another tough, contested mid to partner with Tay.

Great pedigree, but small and selfish IMO. Seems like a less skilled Toby Green.

 

[brysie]

Yup he did but those teams were always destined to at least make a gf given the talent and age profiles of them.

Not having a go at you but my opinion is I hope the club stay well clear of this style of coach.
I couldn't stand to watch another team who can't put a score on the board.

This is probably more true for St Kilda, but less so Fremantle. Looking at their 2013 GF side, there are a few A grade players with the rest being middle of the road or honest players:

2013 AFL Grand Final - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What Lyon was good at was identifying a player’s strengths and fashioning a game plan around them. For instance, Mzungu and Crowley were unfashionable players who Lyon found a way to work into a cohesive Fremantle team. Equally, Suban was never a world beater by any stretch of the imagination.

He may have a reputation for defensive coaching, however I’m not convinced that he can’t adapt his philosophy to suit any conditions or incentives imposed on him by the club, if they were to appoint him. Much of this is likely to come down to the personnel appointed around him, such as his assistants, and clear directives being communicated to him by the club.

Mark Williams is another potential candidate who I think is worth exploring. Good AFL record, stints at Richmond and Melbour new and is likely to have a decent knowledge of the VFL which many assist in recruiting some diamonds in the rough on the cheap, which would suit our current lack of draft picks and currency in the market.

For me, the next appointment ought to be an experienced coach who is capable of absorbing some short-term pain across the next 2 years or so.

Coaches, much like players, must adapt their styles and philosophies in order to remain relevant and successful. If Lyon is willing to adapt, how is that worse than placing an untried senior assistant into one of the biggest roles in the AFL?