How much is our game plan to blame... ?

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Hard to quantify what or who is to 'blame' for our poor performances. No doubt we don't have the cattle. Maybe the cattle we have doesn't suit our game plan. But how much is the actual game plan at fault or at least hindering our progress?

More than a lot of other sides, when we kick out from FB, we seem to be forced to use a shorter kick to a player still inside 50 and often not that far from the kicker. Other teams appear to have a string of options and so more often that not, at worst, a kick out at FB results in a stoppage on the wing.

When we get the ball from defensive fifty and find someone in or around the middle of the ground, often, rather than moving on quickly, we appear to hold the ball up, enabling the opposition to flood back and block the ground up. Not sure if this is part of our game plan (e.g. slowing things down to find a safe option to kick it to), whether it is because our forwards have over committed defensively and we have nothing to kick to until people flood back, whether the players don't have the confidence to take the game on, etc.

Whatever, it is not a great look, not effective and means our inside fifties are highly ineffective, resulting in our ongoing low scoring.

Do people have similar concerns or are seeing something else?

(apologies to the perennially offended who won't like the questioning or criticism of an element of our great Club)

 

[Billyc]

In my view very little. No game plan is making this list competitive. A lack of talent is to blame.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Hard to quantify what or who is to 'blame' for our poor performances. No doubt we don't have the cattle. Maybe the cattle we have doesn't suit our game plan. But how much is the actual game plan at fault or at least hindering our progress?

More than a lot of other sides, when we kick out from FB, we seem to be forced to use a shorter kick to a player still inside 50 and often not that far from the kicker. Other teams appear to have a string of options and so more often that not, at worst, a kick out at FB results in a stoppage on the wing.

When we get the ball from defensive fifty and find someone in or around the middle of the ground, often, rather than moving on quickly, we appear to hold the ball up, enabling the opposition to flood back and block the ground up. Not sure if this is part of our game plan (e.g. slowing things down to find a safe option to kick it to), whether it is because our forwards have over committed defensively and we have nothing to kick to until people flood back, whether the players don't have the confidence to take the game on, etc.

Whatever, it is not a great look, not effective and means our inside fifties are highly ineffective, resulting in our ongoing low scoring.

Do people have similar concerns or are seeing something else?

(apologies to the perennially offended who won't like the questioning or criticism of an element of our great Club)

Great post, this is something I have been ruminating on quite a bit recently as well.

One could argue it is a chicken and an egg scenario, ie our playing list is determining our style of play (Clarko trying to limit losses) .

But I feel like I have seen enough evidence over the last 2 to 3 years to say that our style (slow ball movement, playing along the boundary line rather than through the middle, kicking to contested packs inside 50m rather than hitting up leads) must to some extent be under the direction of the coaching panel.

It is stark when watching the better teams play at the moment (Melbourne, Brisbane, Bulldogs) just how different their approach is to the game to our current style.

They place a high emphasis on moving the ball quickly (via hand or foot) and have lots of interlap and run out of defence (we basically just have CJ).

Heck I could even see the difference between our style and GCs on the weekend as they moved the ball with fluidity (at times)

It also strikes me that we have played our best footy this year when we are behind (the wins against Adelaide and Essendon) where we seem to throw caution to the wind and play a more free, flowing attacking game.

So yes I think there is enough evidence to state that our current game plan is to a reasonable extent responsible for where we find ourselves at this current moment.

 

[Gene Simmons]

Our game plan is so bad however is the necessary evil to prevent weekly 100+ point losses.

 

[SSSSSS]

Actually think our game plan is papering over the cracks. Scary thought.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Our game plan is so bad however is the necessary evil to prevent weekly 100+ point losses.

That is a truelly depressing thought

Unfortunately though I think you may be right......

 

[CHUBBSS]

I think it was picked a part with our current list fairly easily by the good sides but a bit of joshing going on now

 

[TylerDurden]

Double edged sword. The gameplan also takes any talented player we have and makes them look like plodders. It takes any flair they have out of their game. Same at Collingwood.

I'd prefer to lose by 10 goals. Take it on. Play the right way. That way, when it clicks, we'll have a chance at winning some games.

Keep going like this and we'll soon forget how to win at all.

 

[savagelunchbox]

Gameplan issues:

- Playing along the boundary. It may be a 'safety' idea in that if we turn it over there, there's less chance of it turning into a goal against, but at the same time, the players will know of how ineffective it is for allowing us to score.

- No outlet runners. When we're trying to move the ball quickly (note, 'trying'), if the ball carrier or marker get caught and can't play on, there is rarely ever a runner running past for the easy handball. The players run to spots and stop. You can see this at the ground or on the wide shots on TV. It's been happening for 3+ years and it's definitely a gameplan/coaching directive. Only options are hack kicks down the line or handballs to stationary targets.

- Excessive handballing to stationary targets. For this to be effective, you need elite vision, elite hands and have a step to get yourself out of trouble. SMitchell had it and a younger Burgoyne did too. No one on the list has all 3 and it results in hospital handballs, handballs to feet or fumbles.

- Bombing it to the top of the square. Even in our premiership years it was unsuccessful when you factored in who was down there, but it worked because we did it enough to get enough goals from it and we had a defensive unit that was hard to score against. Had Buddy, Rough and Gunners been allowed to lead ala 2008, we would have been close to untouchable for longer than 3 yrs. Now, we have no aerial target to control the ball in the air and only 1 AFL level forward rover (Breust) to read the drop of the ball. Having only one makes it easy to defend and Breust knows this looking at his half-hearted effort against GC. We also have no pressure forwards, despite what the stat monkeys will say by quoting pressure acts, etc. Because of this the forwards are ineffective and the opposition defensive players can intercept mark or transition the ball and get it over the defensive zone with relative ease due to lack of forward pressure and midfield speed. There is plenty of space to lead, even with half the F50 unavailable to deliver it to due to the I50 coming from the boundary.

None of these issues will change with Clarkson as coach. We'd see signs of a change by now yet there has been virtually no sign of any significant changes despite playing the most experience and supposedly gameplan-disciplined side.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Double edged sword. The gameplan also takes any talented player we have and makes them look like plodders. It takes any flair they have out of their game. Same at Collingwood.

I'd prefer to lose by 10 goals. Take it on. Play the right way. That way, when it clicks, we'll have a chance at winning some games.

Keep going like this and we'll soon forget how to win at all.

Good analysis

Our current game plan may limit losses but I just can't see how we can actually win a game with the game style we utilise

I wonder what effect it is having on our player morale having to play that way every week, not great I imagine

 

[hawka32]

I think our gameplan is made to look worse than it actually is by our inability to win contested footy. When you can’t trust your teammate to win the ball, why take a risk going up the middle? Along the boundary it goes where we end up with a scrap and the opposition win it back.

We never were a big contested ball side, even in the premiership years we’d usually just break even and still be able to win by large margins but right now we aren’t even doing that. So when the opposition get a run on, ideally we would like to control the ball for a bit and get the game on our terms but again we can’t win the ball nor have the skills to execute when the footy is hot.

I seem to remember Dunstall commenting on our 2009/2010 years a while back saying that the club learnt that alot of the players from that time weren’t good at winning a contested ball and that lead to problems during those years. Obviously he wasn’t talking about our top 6 at the time but the bottom 6 which I think is where we are at now. We need to find serious ball winners and when they push out the bottom 6 I think the gameplan will come to fruition. Complement that with talent from the draft and we will rebuild.

 

[H00t]

Double edged sword. The gameplan also takes any talented player we have and makes them look like plodders. It takes any flair they have out of their game. Same at Collingwood.

I'd prefer to lose by 10 goals. Take it on. Play the right way. That way, when it clicks, we'll have a chance at winning some games.

Keep going like this and we'll soon forget how to win at all.

North gutted their list and are getting thrashed more than us. But they also look like they are having more fun than us. And are also taking the game on at every opportunity. The energy they play with we can only hope to replicate. Part of that has to be gameplan.

We are parking as many numbers behind the ball, so we can’t move the ball forward. Every full ground shot we have no options forward of the ball. If we at least kept some structure ahead of the ball we might go ok.

Clarko needs to get the players taking the game on at all opportunities. Get us kicking goals and energy will come. Much easier to defend when you only have to do it half the time rather than most of the game. As we are offering nothing offensively.

 

[thehardway]

Hard to quantify what or who is to 'blame' for our poor performances. No doubt we don't have the cattle. Maybe the cattle we have doesn't suit our game plan. But how much is the actual game plan at fault or at least hindering our progress?

More than a lot of other sides, when we kick out from FB, we seem to be forced to use a shorter kick to a player still inside 50 and often not that far from the kicker. Other teams appear to have a string of options and so more often that not, at worst, a kick out at FB results in a stoppage on the wing.

When we get the ball from defensive fifty and find someone in or around the middle of the ground, often, rather than moving on quickly, we appear to hold the ball up, enabling the opposition to flood back and block the ground up. Not sure if this is part of our game plan (e.g. slowing things down to find a safe option to kick it to), whether it is because our forwards have over committed defensively and we have nothing to kick to until people flood back, whether the players don't have the confidence to take the game on, etc.

Whatever, it is not a great look, not effective and means our inside fifties are highly ineffective, resulting in our ongoing low scoring.

Do people have similar concerns or are seeing something else?

(apologies to the perennially offended who won't like the questioning or criticism of an element of our great Club)

Difficult to execute a game plan when we're regularly getting smashed in center clearances and stoppages generally. And when we do win a clearance our spread and run on the outside is practically non-existent. I tear what little hair I have out as the opposition constantly waltzes our of contests. And don't get me started on our turnovers. Until we fix our midfield and get some outside run the game plan will always appear dysfunctional.

 

[hawka32]

Further to my post before - stats aren’t everything and but here are the contested footy differential for each game. I doubt they will come as a surprise to those that have watched is this year.


Essendon +2

Richmond -11

Geelong -1

Fremantle -1

Melbourne -36

Adelaide +2

St Kilda -27

WCE -17

North -21

Carlton +5

GCS -20

After the first month we’ve been beaten pretty badly except for our win against Adelaide and surprisingly the Carlton game. Will any gameplan look good with these numbers?

 

[theiaofseed]

Over the last 5 weeks we've average 44 inside 50's, game plan is culling any flare in our attack. Whole 1.4 less entries than any other side in the competition

Look at that nightmare stat.

 

[Middle Pocket]

It's this. If a player has confidence that an up field teammate can win a 50/50 contest most of the time then a quick kick to the contest or to nearby space will be the best option. But if there is no confidence, the best option is to wait until numbers gather or pass sideways or back to a nearby unmarked player, or down the line to the boundary. It's also about the confidence of a player up field to leave their opponent knowing a teammate will move up to cover their man or the vacated space. The Gold Coast game showed a Hawthorn team with little confidence in each other. Could this be because of a lack of time together? Or a lack of belief in each others' abilities?

 

[Big Hotdog]

Im sure our game plan isn't to just play along the boundary and bomb long and high onto the goal square if we make it to the other end of the ground.
We execute kicks and handballs so poorly at present that we rarely buy anyone time to cut up the opposition.

This year the receiver is given the ball under more pressure than the player passing it to them such are our lack of skills at present.

Eventually what happens is players lose confidence in each other and retreat into their shells and go for the safe pass rather than take the game on. That is the once mighty Hawks at present. How do you get that mojo back?

-Change of coach
-Give players license (you wont be dropped)
-Win a few games

The other part of the game that would help enormously would be to win a few center clearances and have some clean entry into our fifty.

-Influential ruck
-Dominant mids

 

[Brishawk]

There are aspects of our strategy I think are completely out dated but I don’t think ‘playing with no flare’ is the strategy. We try and move the ball by hand through running players but we get this going for length of field play so infrequently that it is hard to see it. This places pressure on our foot skills and stoppage work. The more those fail the less we run and the more pressure is applied to our weaknesses.

our forwards make it very difficult to execute a running game because they are very inexperienced. The kpf are usually playing from behind or give up front position too easily. I can see Kosi is trying to go against his instincts and play in front but it is more second thought than first. Neither he or Lewis know how to control the space in front of them and are more comfortable protecting the space behind them to get the ball over the top.

Lewis looks better coming up the ground because he is leading into space behind the zone, which has pressed up to keep the ball in their forward fifty. He doesn’t know what to do once the zone is already occupying his space. Kosi has similar issues.

so when we get the ball moving quickly through running players we often see it break down quickly because the forwards are caught out of position and we don’t have line breakers getting into space ahead of the player with the ball that is created by a retreating defence. A guy like hendo would be very valuable in this side and I don’t think it is a coincidence that we struggle to move the ball quickly with he and smith out of the side. What happens in stead is we try to hit a stationary target or player who is running with the flight with an opponent hot on his heals. The kick is a lot harder and we turn it over more than we would if we had line breakers getting into better space. And more importantly either the player has to stop and go behind the mark or has sucked a defender to them from forward of the ball and either rushes the disposal forward or goes back behind the mark.

if we had day, bramble and Downie all in the side we would have a wider group of players that can break hard into space. We have to wait until those players are ready before we see major improvement, I’m guessing. Day, impey, Cj, frost, bramble and Downie would be able to feed off each other as opposed to frost or Cj going it alone and hoping for the best.

edit: not saying bramble and Downie are ready to go and should be in the side but once they are ready I think we will see better outcomes from the same game plan.

 

[falcons2]

Very much I would say and I'd add player conditioning. Hawthorn are too light, lack strength and speed.
Given Hawthorn are 15th for goals for and 16th for goals against, neither the attack nor defence is succeeding.
I think you have to hang your hat on one. I'd go attack.
I'm asking for a goal a quarter. That's it! Seems a lot, you may say but given we have had 3 goalless, 10 one goal, 9 two goal and 10 three goals quarters (32 out of 44{close enough to 75%}) this year, It's not so much.
Every team has its moments of dominance and if you don't score the opposition stays in the game.
11.10.76 was our fifth highest score for the year...wtf
Those 44 lost goals would have us equal highest score in the league with the Bulldogs.
Yep the players have to take some of the rap, but that's media-driven crap that the list is no good. Our last 3 games have all been against like types and hardly raised a yelp.

 

[Mercy Seat]

Game plan always looks rubbish when you're low in confidence, form and quality.

We stink at the moment, there's no doubt about that. But there's no flying V that the coaches are just going to pull out and have us magically playing better. It's going to take time and better personnel.

It's clear that we have been trying to move to a quick ball movement, fast hands sort of gameplan, much in a similar sort of vein to Richmond, and clearly to have us compete with the top clubs. It worked in small patches really well for the first 4-5 weeks, and since then it's turned to shite. I feel like we have reverted to a safe way which is hugging the boundary, over possessing and slowww. It's not great to watch but it makes sense when you don't trust your team mates let alone yourself.

When you're a backman and you're conceding entry after entry, would you prefer to kick it up the guts and have it fly straight back in again, or kick it to someone 15 metres away in the pocket, guaranteeing you a breather? When you're low in confidence and getting slammed, definitely the latter.

All of this is compounded by the fact we are fairly awful by foot.

 

[The hands of stone]

Ive been to one game live , so really can only comment on that .
The guys who attend training are in the best position to comment on what we train in comparison to what we see on gameday.
Im guessing though they would be poles apart currently.

Against Carlton in the first half at least 6 times we had an inboard option but choose to take a safe easier option towards the boundary .
It cost us opening the field up and scoring and allowed Carlton plenty of time to set up.

Thats players with no confidence in their ability to take that proactive option . We wouldnt have inboard options if we are coached not to IMO.

Its a small example . And I have no doubt there is an element of protecting the scoreboard in our play.

But mostly we are a very average side lacking confidence and basic skills to take the game on , like we would probably all want to see.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

WOW -13.5 inside 50 differential over the last 5 weeks says a lot, obvious with the eye test also.

I also believe it's a damage control game plan as we lack talent, no coach in the game would have this group of players in the top 12.

Questions need to be asked, who's accountable for getting this list so bereft of talent and in some a deplorable state ?

 

[Mercy Seat]

Questions need to be asked, who's accountable for getting this list so bereft of talent and in some a deplorable state ?

Equalisation.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Equalisation.

That plays a significant part no doubt, but it isn't the only reason, Geelong have been up the top end of the ladder for years and they haven't bottomed out like this.

 

[Brishawk]

WOW -13.5 inside 50 differential over the last 5 weeks says a lot, obvious with the eye test also.

I also believe it's a damage control game plan as we lack talent, no coach in the game would have this group of players in the top 12.

Questions need to be asked, who's accountable for getting this list so bereft of talent and in some a deplorable state ?

That guy is no longer with the club.