Not sure the obsession with taking the game global. One of my favourite parts is it being uniquely australian. Regardless won’t happen
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They don't have a model though.
They spread through the British empire, which gave it a multinational focus you can build international games on. It's not some superior strategy footy lacks.
The spread of footy, even if it speeds up Is probably to late for that. Any international tournament is done with the caveat that the winning national would probably struggle against a decent team in a strong Australian country league.
Imagine if RU was the All Blacks, and everyone else was below the level of the sh*te shield?
On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app
Remind me when France, Argentina, Uruguay, Italy etc were part of the British empire?They don't have a model though.
They spread through the British empire, which gave it a multinational focus you can build international games on. It's not some superior strategy footy lacks.
The spread of footy, even if it speeds up Is probably to late for that. Any international tournament is done with the caveat that the winning national would probably struggle against a decent team in a strong Australian country league.
Imagine if RU was the All Blacks, and everyone else was below the level of the sh*te shield?
On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app
The British Empire doesn't necessarily equate to direct colonial possessions. Buenos Aires especially, but other European and international cities had tens of thousands of rich business oriented Englishmen (who also had the ability to relax and play/watch sport one weekends while locals worked longer weeks) who spread the game. Even with the historical success of e.g. Argentina Rugby, it was up until the early 2000's very much a sport of country club membership, not wider fandom.Remind me when France, Argentina, Uruguay, Italy etc were part of the British empire?
Remind me when France, Argentina, Uruguay, Italy etc were part of the British empire?
I find the opposite occurs, primary around Marngrook and its role.
Those early games of football were clearly forms of "folk" football, as mentioned, played in the British Isles for centuries.
The game played in Rugby School is indeed quite old, although I cannot say whether there is a direct, uninterrupted lineage from that game to modern Rugby.
In the case of Australian Football, there is clearly is a direct, uninterruptred lineage between the first codification in 1859 and modern Australian Football.
Some of the key indentifiers in Australain Football, what distinguishes it from all the other codes, are mentioned amongst those ten 1859 rules.
Can you elaborate what you mean by "the opposite" to what gigantor described and what marngrook has to do with it?
Historians place too much emphasis on Tom wills, at least initially.
Tom Wills rugby playing background means Australian Football came from rugby.
Tom Wills association with Marngrook means Australian Football came from Marngrook.
What is more logical is that Tom Wills was inspired by Marngrook to feature the kick and catch in a game of football.
Noting that Marngrook is a static game of kick-to-kick.
Historians are fond of saying that rugby had the "fair catch" so Australian Football comes from rugby.
Well all football, including soccer had the "fair catch". We don't know about Gaelic Football because it wasn't codified at the time.
i think it is not an unreasonable assumption to believe that Gaelic Football had the kick and catch but probably without the "mark"(fair catch)
Tom Wills influence comes more later through his involvement with the game and the evolution of the game of Australian Football.
The evidence anything even remotely like modern Gaelic was played historically is weak.You have to make a clear distinction between English games and Gaelic games.
Gaelic games were organised affairs including Hurley, Gaelic Football and fhockey etc and had been for centuries.
English football was usually just an excuse for a scrap. The "rules" were ad hock and rarely adherred to.
You can mount an argument either way.
it's strange that the game today is the exact opposite of the original rules w.r.t. tackling, running, ball handling. field. No other game has evolved so much.
All we know is that the original rules of 1859 were influenced by a number of factors.
1. Irishmen lived in numbers in Melbourne. Their game was organised and recorded as being played in Victoria. One of the founding four was an Irishmen.
The fact that Gaelic Football was uncodified at the time means nothing We don't know how strong the influence but the hand pass is logical.
2. Cambridge rules, the precursor to soccer had an almost identical set of rules. Note that the "fair catch" existed in soccer at the time.
3. Rugby, had zero effect initially as seen by the rules - no running, no tackling, no throwing and no offside.
4. Marngrook was a kick-to-kick game so that probably re-enforced the kick and catch idea but not a game in itself.
5. Weather - rugby initially was only accepted were fields were dark green and Melbourne fields were hard and fast.
5. Freedom - there was a general consensus that people wanted to be free and free of the British establishment that was rugby at the time.
6. Fitness - the game was initially experimented by schoolboys and there was a desire for a game that was more open than the English games
of football that all resembled rugby i.e. one unholy scrimmage. This is were the kick and catch idea came from for colonial rules.
The kick and catch idea is the one that has remained until this day in Australian Football and it's what made Australian Football.
It's based on another assumption.There's no evidence Wills saw Marngrook & historians say it's most likely he didn't. Afl just variation on the same
The evidence anything even remotely like modern Gaelic was played historically is weak.
Speaking of Soccer and the England France link history records the French wanted to formalise the game internationally and pushed ahead and did so to create FIFA. The poms -Football Association - did not want to be involved at first. Which I remind my wifes rellies regularly, who also have a negative opinion of our game but attend the NFL matches at Wembley. There is a story somewhere in that situation.At one point the Brits had very strong trading links with Argentina, and that's how a few sports were adopted (I presume the game went from there to Uruguay).
In fact, British sports were introduced into Italy around the same time, Milan was established as a football and cricket club by English businness men, although in the case of rugby, France had as much influence as the UK (in the game developing in Italy).
France itself is a different story. I once saw a documentary about some very violent games which were indigenous to France, played up till the late 19th century. At some point, the game of rugby successfully supplanted these violent games.
Given the close proximity of France to England, just as soccer would have been introduced with relative ease by Brits with close links to France, so too was rugby. I don't think there is too much of a mystery there.
One could ask why France took to rugby more than anywhere else on continental Europe, and in part, it could be because of the existence of those older violent games.
There's no evidence Wills saw Marngrook & historians say it's most likely he didn't. Afl just variation on the same
The ball is kicked into the air not along the ground, there is a general scramble at the ball…When caught it is again kicked up in the air with great force and ascends as straight up and as high as when thrown by hand. (Source: Meanjin)"
No evidence Wills saw Marngrook? Some historians say it's most likely he did. Here's a long, detailed article favouring this case. I only quote some of the end conclusion - I've bolded a key part of it.There's no evidence Wills saw Marngrook & historians say it's most likely he didn't. Afl just variation on the same
Which I remind my wifes rellies regularly, who also have a negative opinion of our game but attend the NFL matches at Wembley. There is a story somewhere in that situation.
But none that show Wills played it, or even heard of it. Its like assuming someone that met and played with some Australians must have played Aussie rules, because there is evidence Aussies played Aussie rules. Aussie rules isn't played everywhere, and isn't played by everyone even in those places it is played, and isnt played constantly by those that do play it. So there is ample scope of someone hanging out with Aussies not coming across Aussie rules."There are many historical records that show Marngrook being played across Victoria. For example, the following is a description from the ‘Assistant Protector of Aborigines’ in Victoria, William Thomas, in 1858:
.
The idea that a bunch of WASPS in the mid 1800s, most of them exposed to English public school sport, based their winter football code on an Irish Catholic game is borderline absurd.What is known that Gaelic Football was played along with other Gaelic in an organised matter.
It is recorded that the Irish lived in inner Melbourne in numbers at the time.
It is recorded that the Irish were seen playing their brand of football in Victoria.
What is known is that the codification of Gaelic Football was down by returning Australian Rules Footballer and that the rules accepted were much like a earlier version of Australian Rules Football. It is HIGHLY IMPROBBLE that the Irish would accept rules at odds with their contemporary game.
Australian Rules Football only diverged with the playing of the oval ball by Australians.
The idea that a bunch of WASPS in the mid 1800s, most of them exposed to English public school sport, based their winter football code on an Irish Catholic game is borderline absurd.
On the topic of international expansion, footy is better as a national game not a global one
Othe only country we could feasibly expand into and not see the club DOA is New Zealand.
But none that show Wills played it, or even heard of it.
To me, what we know of Wills suggests had he been aware of a connection with Marngrook, or even been able to manufacture a connection, he would have made that public.