Review Dogs def Freo 93-65 - Rd 13, 2021

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ScragCity said:
Did anyone else notice that a bombers supporter made a post in our match day thread saying "we look cooked," or something similar? I'm not sure what to make of that. One possibility is that someone on our board has a second account with which they pose as a Bomber's supporter and troll their board and they accidentally posted from the wrong account. If that's the case it's a bit sad but also pretty funny. The alternative though is much more troubling. What if there's a Bomber's supporter with a second account with which they are posing as one of us and trolling our board? Could there be a mole on here - a deep undercover Bomber's fan? I've found myself regarding all of you with a deep suspicion, looking for cracks in the facade.
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I nominate anyone who has Dunks in a red/black guernsey as their avatar...

At least I was able to cease ignoring Waleed Aly
 
dogwatch said:
You're reading way too much into it if you think I'm trying to subtly undermine Cordy. (It's hard to know from your wording whether you were referring to me or to others).

FWIW I have no particular preference for either player. Like most of us here I'm just trying to work out what's the best solution we can come up with. At the moment it's a watching brief, especially since last night was the first chance we got to see all three talls (Keath, Cordy, Gardner) playing in the same defensive unit. Sounds like we might persist with that for a few weeks at least.

I also happen to think more people come gunning for Gardner than Cordy but that's just my perception. I haven't bothered keeping a tally. Clearly both are whipping boys at times.
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Saw someone saying criticising Gardner was like shooting bambi on here. What?! He's the most bagged player on here, number 1 whipping boy for sure.
Proff has had a strange infatuation with Cordy for a while now, wouldn't be surprised if they're a relative.

We all know that Cordy, Gardner and Young are all, let's just say... well below par. I do give props to Gardner though, for at least improving to the point where he's in the conversation. Last year he was abominable, this year he has shown he can at least be effective at times.
 
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3 disposals for Gardiner. 2 marks. 2 kicks, one handball.

I do not know how many spoils he had.
 

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BEaston said:
Saw someone saying criticising Gardner was like shooting bambi on here. What?! He's the most bagged player on here, number 1 whipping boy for sure.
Proff has had a strange infatuation with Cordy for a while now, wouldn't be surprised if they're a relative.

We all know that Cordy, Gardner and Young are all let's just say... well below par. I do give props to Gardner though, for at least improving to the point where he's in the conversation. Last year he was abominable, this year he has shown he can at least be effective at times.
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Gardner is thought of more fondly when he's not playing.

Hannan, Cordy, Gardner, and Lipinski probably our whipping boys right now. Roarke just behind them.
 
weltschmerz said:
Gardner is thought of more fondly when he's not playing.

Hannan, Cordy, Gardner, and Lipinski probably our whipping boys right now. Roarke just behind them.
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I know Gardner is still inexperienced but I'd think of him more fondly if he stopped doing such feeble, indecisive stuff on the footy field.
 
mcgleereturns said:
Naughts definitely more exciting than Templeton ( and as his number 1 worshipper from 78-80 that’s saying something) for pure marking alone but would still take Kelvin -,and Simon - on reliability and quality output at the moment. Templeton’s 1980 Brownlow year as CHF would make Carey awestruck. Naughts still lots to learn ( and not just kicking) but geez that mark in the last was insane on the degree of difficulty scale ( might not be as high in the air as others this year but that last second reach out to the side was amazing)
He’s never out of the marking contest when he has a run up. I don’t think I’ve seen him make an unrealistic attempt yet.
Now Naughton in place of Groenewegen/Peart in 85 would have got us the premiership!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Naughton may be Astro but he’s not qualified to fly a plane - don’t knock The Groaner :)


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We're one of the fittest teams in the competition - next to no soft-tissue injuries, running over teams in the last quarter especially when they have less on the bench (how good was that last quarter against GWS? What felt like a goal every 90 seconds v North in the last quarter), and the fact that our three best midfielders can all spend larger periods of time in the midfield (Bont, Macrae, Libba can attend 63 of 75 centre bounces for midfielders between them) up against the rest of the league because they're all incredibly fit ...

But people here are having a crack because goal kicking practice - which may not make a difference - doesn't fit into our sports science and high performance and fitness/strength and conditioning structure.

Aaron Naughton is averaging 87.7% time on ground since round 4. For the mobility he displays and physical efforts he puts into bumping and jumping in contests, that's a mighty effort.

His goalkicking has probably cost us about 40 points against competition average so far this year. Lets say a whole bunch of goalkicking practice splits that in half (20 more points).

I'm not even convinced a whole bunch of mid-week goalkicking practice makes that a guarantee (lol)

Maybe that makes him a 80% time on ground player instead - guess what - he would have scored 14 total less points if he plays 80% time on ground instead of 87%.

I think we're doing it right. Our entire sports science and fitness structure is better than other teams and a factor why we're so good.
 
threenewpadlocks said:
We're one of the fittest teams in the competition - next to no soft-tissue injuries, running over teams in the last quarter especially when they have less on the bench (how good was that last quarter against GWS? What felt like a goal every 90 seconds v North in the last quarter), and the fact that our three best midfielders can all spend larger periods of time in the midfield (Bont, Macrae, Libba can attend 63 of 75 centre bounces for midfielders between them) up against the rest of the league because they're all incredibly fit ...

But people here are having a crack because goal kicking practice - which may not make a difference - doesn't fit into our sports science and high performance and fitness/strength and conditioning structure.

Aaron Naughton is averaging 87.7% time on ground since round 4. For the mobility he displays and physical efforts he puts into bumping and jumping in contests, that's a mighty effort.

His goalkicking has probably cost us about 40 points against competition average so far this year. Lets say a whole bunch of goalkicking practice splits that in half (20 more points).

I'm not even convinced a whole bunch of mid-week goalkicking practice makes that a guarantee (lol)

Maybe that makes him a 80% time on ground player instead - guess what - he would have scored 14 total less points if he plays 80% time on ground instead of 87%.

I think we're doing it right. Our entire sports science and fitness structure is better than other teams and a factor why we're so good.
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I get what you’re saying but a physical, aerobic beast like Naughty spending a little extra time on goal kicking practise over the next couple of weeks isn’t going to suddenly lower his fitness base to the extent that it’s affecting his time on ground, but doing the work and getting a proper technique and a bit more confidence in his kicking could make a big difference, he’s not far off he’s not spraying them he just has to adjust a little bit and nail down his technique, the way to do that is taking shot after shot with the same exact routine (which he does not have at the moment) and getting feedback from coaches and watching tape of those shots.

The confidence he gains from kicking his set shots doesn’t just equal a few more points for him but the confidence he gains from kicking his goals then shows in his marking and the rest of his game, when he has those periods in games where he turns it on with sheer dominance for a quarter or so he’s nailing his shots, that’s no coincidence.

It’s a balancing act, we shouldn’t be all fitness or all skills but it has to be balanced
 
Pretty telling to how good the bloke is that Naughty can be rated 2nd best on ground (to a dominant Bont) by both coaches off a one goal game. No other key forward in the league right now can have the impact he has on a game without hitting the scoreboard. Obviously he needs to kick better, but geez he is an incredible player. Last night was as bad of the yips he’s had so I’m backing him to get it right next week after being a bit more of a focus, he’s not a mentally weak player so he’ll sort it out pretty quickly.
 
doggies ftw said:
little extra time on goal kicking practise over the next couple of weeks isn’t going to suddenly lower his fitness base to the extent that it’s affecting his time on ground, but doing the work and getting a proper technique and a bit more confidence in his kicking could make a big difference
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Two points:

I think people put too much stock in a bit of extra practice making a difference in being a guaranteed goal kicker. He's a bad kick for goal and will be for the rest of his career (or any improvement will come over the length of his entire career and be ridiculously slowly that you have to divide "improvement" over 150 more games, not something that can be fixed overnight). People vastly have an incorrect assessment of skill development and reason for skill execution if they think that 50 kicks after training makes anything but * all difference in his goalkicking. It's 50 more kicks from the hundreds of thousands of times he's kicked a footy in his life. It's like suggesting that a ATP tennis player can just add 10 k's an hour on their serve if they did an extra hour of serving practice every second day. Ridiculous.

And secondly, I think it's a bit presumptuous to think that "surely this can't happen fitness wise if you do this" given the people making the decisions of our fitness structure are arguably as qualified as anyone in the world. Mathew Inness has a PhD specifically researching footy fitness from one of the best universities in the world for doing it (Vic Uni). I think I'll defer to his years and years of research and building upon best practice, and the fact that he was a professional cricketer since the late 90's, studied this whilst he was still playing, and ascended ridiculously quickly up the ranks of the industry after retiring from 2008 (within 7 years he was the head of an AFL club, which, needless to say, is very quick). I'll much happily say he's right and the people on this board saying "but his fitness base won't suffer doing this" when a bloke with a PhD in it says it does.
 

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weltschmerz said:
Gardner is thought of more fondly when he's not playing.

Hannan, Cordy, Gardner, and Lipinski probably our whipping boys right now. Roarke just behind them.
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Seems to be a trend. McLean went from being a fringe player who was struggling to cement a spot in our 22, to a Brownlow Medallist while he's been in rehab.
 
threenewpadlocks said:
Two points:

I think people put too much stock in a bit of extra practice making a difference in being a guaranteed goal kicker. He's a bad kick for goal and will be for the rest of his career (or any improvement will come over the length of his entire career and be ridiculously slowly that you have to divide "improvement" over 150 more games, not something that can be fixed overnight). People vastly have an incorrect assessment of skill development and reason for skill execution if they think that 50 kicks after training makes anything but fu** all difference in his goalkicking. It's 50 more kicks from the hundreds of thousands of times he's kicked a footy in his life. It's like suggesting that a ATP tennis player can just add 10 k's an hour on their serve if they did an extra hour of serving practice every second day. Ridiculous.

And secondly, I think it's a bit presumptuous to think that "surely this can't happen fitness wise if you do this" given the people making the decisions of our fitness structure are arguably as qualified as anyone in the world. Mathew Inness has a PhD specifically researching footy fitness from one of the best universities in the world for doing it (Vic Uni). I think I'll defer to his years and years of research and building upon best practice, and the fact that he was a professional cricketer since the late 90's, studied this whilst he was still playing, and ascended ridiculously quickly up the ranks of the industry after retiring from 2008 (within 7 years he was the head of an AFL club, which, needless to say, is very quick). I'll much happily say he's right and the people on this board saying "but his fitness base won't suffer doing this" when a bloke with a PhD in it says it does.
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All the best set shot kickers have a set routine, they take the exact number of steps every time. Now watch Naughty, it’s like every kick is just an afterthought, there’s no routine. What he needs to do, is with a coach develop a proper routine and do countless shots at goal at training with the exact same routine while watching tape and listening to feedback. You’re absolutely kidding yourself if you don’t think this will make a difference. A player who already has a decent routine isn’t going to see overnight success but a guy who has a non existent routine could definitely see reasonably quick improvement by developing one. No ones saying he needs to improve 50% but if he can just improve a little bit, and a good routine will help him mainly with those easy 20m ones he fluffs. It will do wonders for his game, and the teams game.

What a ridiculous argument, set shots are a skill you develop. Naughtys a poor kick so he just shouldn’t kick the footy at all at training I guess, I mean what’s another 50 kicks on top of the 1000s he’s already had? Maybe he should just run laps all week cos our fitness staff played high level cricket 😂

You do realise Naughty would be doing minimal work required to keep his fitness level up at this stage of the year. Taking a few hours a day at the end of training a few days a week or whatever practising a very important skill set is not going to make a difference to his ability to run out a game. What does Matthew Inness have to do with anything lol, our fitness staff have one job, to keep our players at the required fitness base. It’s up to the rest of our coaches to develop the right plan around each player as to what they allocate their time too. No ones *ing saying Naughty shouldn’t do any fitness work ffs.

Also you point to the teams overall fitness levels as some reason that they shouldn’t spend more time on goal kicking. It’s an individual thing, no Lachie Hunter who might take one set shot a week, while he could improve, probably doesn’t need to put significant time into it. Naughty who takes on average 5+ shots at goal a week, yes he needs to work on it.
 
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BEaston said:
Saw someone saying criticising Gardner was like shooting bambi on here. What?! He's the most bagged player on here, number 1 whipping boy for sure.
Proff has had a strange infatuation with Cordy for a while now, wouldn't be surprised if they're a relative.

We all know that Cordy, Gardner and Young are all let's just say... well below par. I do give props to Gardner though, for at least improving to the point where he's in the conversation. Last year he was abominable, this year he has shown he can at least be effective at times.
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Cordy is 4cm shorter than Gardiner and 7cm shorter than Young, a lot lighter and slower than those two.

He may be ok playing on a 190-195cm third tall but is no use to us at all against really big forwards. if they are quick, he is doubly stuffed.

Watch him against Lynch this year or Harry McKay or Curnow or Kennedy or Darling in the past and you can see why he is reserved for certain roles only.

Bevo mentioned that we bought Gardiner because we are coming up against bigger forwards lines (ie Geelong and West Coast) soon. makes perfect sense to transition Gardiner back.
 
doggies ftw said:
All the best set shot kickers have a set routine, they take the exact number of steps every time. Now watch Naughty, it’s like every kick is just an afterthought, there’s no routine. What he needs to do, is with a coach develop a proper routine and do countless shots at goal at training with the exact same routine while watching tape and listening to feedback. You’re absolutely kidding yourself if you don’t think this will make a difference. What a ridiculous argument, set shots are a skill you develop. Naughtys a poor kick so he just shouldn’t kick the footy at all at training I guess, I mean what’s another 50 kicks on top of the 1000s he’s already had? Maybe he should just run laps all week cos our fitness staff played high level cricket 😂

You do realise Naughty would be doing minimal work required to keep his fitness level up at this stage of the year. Taking a few hours a day at the end of training a few days a week or whatever practising a very important skill set is not going to make a difference to his ability to run out a game. What does Matthew Inness have to do with anything lol, our fitness staff have one job, to keep our players at the required fitness base. It’s up to the rest of our coaches to develop the right plan around each player as to what they allocate their time too. No ones f*n saying Naughty shouldn’t do any fitness work ffs.

Also you point to the teams overall fitness levels as some reason that they shouldn’t spend more time on goal kicking. It’s an individual thing, no Lachie Hunter who might take one set shot a week, while he could improve, probably doesn’t need to put significant time into it. Naughty who takes on average 5+ shots at goal a week, yes he needs to work on it.
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1. I very much doubt we've tried nothing to fix Naughton's goalkicking. There's no evidence to suggest we haven't tried what you've already suggested in pre-season or similar, and it may not have stuck.

2. "You're kidding if you're saying it makes no difference". But we have living proof that it doesn't - Levi Casboult. They've done everything people have suggested - extra hours, specialist goalkickers, and it literally has made no difference and he's as bad now as he has been his entire career.

3. I can't oversell how lucky we are to have Inness. He's a local western suburbs boy - not sure if he grew up a Dogs supporter but we know at the very least he grew up in the Western suburbs of Melbourne and Footscray was his district club - and if he wasn't he'd be off being the high performance manager for a major Australian national team (the Olympic Committee, Socceroos, etc.) or off doing it for a major European or American team. As per this article there are a dozen or more Australians in fitness/medical related roles in the NBA itself: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-13/australian-sports-scientists-making-mark-in-the-nba/9543634 Inness is as good as any of them, if not better, and the fact that he's working for our relatively small sports club by global standards is quite impressive.
 
threenewpadlocks said:
1. I very much doubt we've tried nothing to fix Naughton's goalkicking. There's no evidence to suggest we haven't tried what you've already suggested in pre-season or similar, and it may not have stuck.

2. "You're kidding if you're saying it makes no difference". But we have living proof that it doesn't - Levi Casboult. They've done everything people have suggested - extra hours, specialist goalkickers, and it literally has made no difference and he's as bad now as he has been his entire career.

3. I can't oversell how lucky we are to have Inness. He's a local western suburbs boy - not sure if he grew up a Dogs supporter but we know at the very least he grew up in the Western suburbs of Melbourne and Footscray was his district club - and if he wasn't he'd be off being the high performance manager for a major Australian national team (the Olympic Committee, Socceroos, etc.) or off doing it for a major European or American team. As per this article there are a dozen or more Australians in fitness/medical related roles in the NBA itself: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-13/australian-sports-scientists-making-mark-in-the-nba/9543634 Inness is as good as any of them, if not better, and the fact that he's working for our relatively small sports club by global standards is quite impressive.
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I never said we’re not doing anything, I’m sure the club is working on it. It would be negligent if we weren’t. And I’m sure we’ve been working on it in the past doesn’t mean we give up.

Naming one spud who hasn’t improved doesn’t really mean much, I mean countless of players every year don’t improve and get delisted, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be trying to improve people’s skill level because other players haven’t succeeded? Tbh And I could be wrong as I don’t watch much Carlton or take notice of Casboult but in my mind he seems like someone who actually did improve his set shots. No he’s never going to be a deadeye but from memory he’s gone from shanking everything to kicking the ones he should be kicking for the most part.

Dont have to look past Bruce as an example of someone whose gone from being a seriously poor kick missing sodas to this year being a great set shot.

That’s great on Innes but not exactly relevant
 
Practice, routine, muscle memory and repetition.

Any sport that requires accuracy, from golf to tennis to nfl kickers to basketball shooters, will tell you the same thing.

Steph Curry:

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Kobe Bryant:

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Imagine a sports scientist telling Bryant he wasn't allowed to shoot that much...
 
WallyStringhaus said:
Practice, routine, muscle memory and repetition.

Any sport that requires accuracy, from golf to tennis to nfl kickers to basketball shooters, will tell you the same thing.
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But those sports largely depend on one repetitive skill.

In the NBA, the difference between being a 37% and 33% 3 point shooter is literally worth tens of millions of dollars and the margins are so thin that one player jumping his accuracy up that much can add multiple wins a season to his team.

But goal kicking - where it isn't explained by randomness - simply doesn't have that big of an impact at AFL level.

Take Naughton. Whilst his bad goalkicking this year may have cost us about 3-4 points a game compared to a league average player, it'll regress to the mean. For example over two seasons 2019-20, his bad goalkicking "only" cost us about 15 total points - ie less than half a point a game.

1623056017866.png

www.statsinsider.com.au

AFL Goal Kickers | Player Stats | Shot Charts | Heat Maps - Stats Insider

Dig deeper into the best and worst kicks for goal at each AFL club. Investigate every goal kicked since the start of the 2018 season.
www.statsinsider.com.au www.statsinsider.com.au

On the other hand, who knows all the other strength and conditioning work that we've done instead of making him kick the ball 100 times more has made him a much better player.

For example - the simple act of taking 1 more mark inside 50 per game (worth 3 points a shot) is three times more valuable than "fixing" his goalkicking which might cost us one point a game vs the league average as it regresses to the mean over the course of his career. (4 points a game this year, but 0.5 points in 30+ games last year).

And that's, of course, assuming that doing the goalkicking work even makes a difference (I'm not sure it does).

And the other thing is - Even all of his bad goalkicking cost us only about 24 points today?

Do you know what else will cost us 24 points? Missing 3 games. If he had a standard injury that made him miss 3 games out of the 22 this year, he is such a valuable player (8 points over replacement), that outweighs even one solitary game of bad goalkicking.

If doing extra goalkicking work made him kick one more goal than he didn't yesterday (1 point), that's still not as harmful as the fitness impact of him missing a game (worth more than 5 points) - and that effect is multiplied if he gets an injury that makes him miss multiple games.
 
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