List Mgmt. List Management Discussion for 2021

[eldorado]

Great call

These guys undoubtedly took unders for years, and refused other clubs trying to poach them, to stay and win flags for the team we love

Time to pay back the love

This.

I'm probably old fashioned, but if good and loyalbest 22 players want to stay, you try to accommodate that. You don't just look at them like a slab of meat, with carving knives in your eyes, "How much can we flog your carcass for?"

The willingness of people to put forward "We should have traded Gunston/Breust when they had currency" without ever stopping to think of the currency, playing wise and other wise, they had/still have for us.

"You have to trade quality to get quality!!"...why not just...keep the quality you have, if you acknowledge that it is quality? Even if it over 28 "Won't be there for our next flag...get rid of them!"

It's just short-sighted.

I don't recall hearing anything like this all through, say, Crawford, in our darkest years. I recall people expressing the idea, in 2003/2004, that they hoped he doesn't go to Collingwood, that they hoped he would stay.

This 'trade all good players when you're down" idea seems to be a more modern phenomenon.

 

[Steven Tyler]

This.

I'm probably old fashioned, but if good and loyalbest 22 players want to stay, you try to accommodate that. You don't just look at them like a slab of meat, with carving knives in your eyes, "How much can we flog your carcass for?"

The willingness of people to put forward "We should have traded Gunston/Breust when they had currency" without ever stopping to think of the currency, palying wise and other wise, they had/still have for us.

"You have to trade quality to get quality!!"...why not just...keep the quality you have, if you acknowledge that it is quality? Even if it over 28 "Won't be there for our next flag...get rid of them!"

It's just short-sighted.

I don't recall hearing anything like this all through, say, Crawford, in our darkest years. I recall people expressing the idea, in 2003/2004, that they hoped he doesn't go to Collingwood, that they hoped he would stay.

This 'trade all good players when you're down" idea seems to be a more modern phenomenon.

Imagine what it does to other players thinking, both at Hawthorn and those maybe looking for a new home

 

[Davo-27]

This.

I'm probably old fashioned, but if good and loyalbest 22 players want to stay, you try to accommodate that. You don't just look at them like a slab of meat, with carving knives in your eyes, "How much can we flog your carcass for?"

The willingness of people to put forward "We should have traded Gunston/Breust when they had currency" without ever stopping to think of the currency, palying wise and other wise, they had/still have for us.

"You have to trade quality to get quality!!"...why not just...keep the quality you have, if you acknowledge that it is quality? Even if it over 28 "Won't be there for our next flag...get rid of them!"

It's just short-sighted.

I don't recall hearing anything like this all through, say, Crawford, in our darkest years. I recall people expressing the idea, in 2003/2004, that they hoped he doesn't go to Collingwood, that they hoped he would stay.

This 'trade all good players when you're down" idea seems to be a more modern phenomenon.

Free Agency and the culture it has created can be an ugly thing sometimes.

 

[Lickmesocks]

How clarko will handle the Notchell

It's actually trickier than you think. I've been told that it was Mitchell's agent that is the one leaking trade news. We have heavily paid forward on Mitchell's contract (950k last 2 seasons, 700k this year, with only 550k for the last 2 years of his deal remaining). It's becoming a regular move by players who have been paid forward on contracts to use this tactic to try and get more $$$ on their cheaper later years of the deal.

Carlton did this with Gibbs, and the second he went into the cheaper part of the deal he requested a trade, which is why Carlton played hardball, they were pissed they paid forward so much on his contract and then he tried to up and leave when his deal got cheap.

I honestly don't know how we can meet the salary cap floor without paying overs/forward significantly with our currently list - and not risk another Mitchell scenario.

This paying huge sums up front is full of danger.

Beams is another who was paid a fortune up front by the Lions and when he was due to play for less moved to Collingwood on another huge deal.

I think the AFL needs to understand the landscape more ie- if a club only wants to pay 85% of the cap while they are rebuilding then they should be able to manage there own affairs- The AFL handout to that club would obviously be less for that season so clubs are not stock piling cash.

 

[Lickmesocks]

This.

I'm probably old fashioned, but if good and loyalbest 22 players want to stay, you try to accommodate that. You don't just look at them like a slab of meat, with carving knives in your eyes, "How much can we flog your carcass for?"

The willingness of people to put forward "We should have traded Gunston/Breust when they had currency" without ever stopping to think of the currency, playing wise and other wise, they had/still have for us.

"You have to trade quality to get quality!!"...why not just...keep the quality you have, if you acknowledge that it is quality? Even if it over 28 "Won't be there for our next flag...get rid of them!"

It's just short-sighted.

I don't recall hearing anything like this all through, say, Crawford, in our darkest years. I recall people expressing the idea, in 2003/2004, that they hoped he doesn't go to Collingwood, that they hoped he would stay.

This 'trade all good players when you're down" idea seems to be a more modern phenomenon.

Nice thoughtful post but don’t for a minute think some of these players like Gunston and Breust have not been extremely well compensated over the journey.

The loyalty thing is a great sentiment for a certain time until a players performance does not weigh up with his remuneration..... Use Birch as an example. We paid him huge money (legend of the club) to be sitting in the Grand stand for essentially 2 full seasons and the moment we make the hard call he goes to Brisbane and doesn’t miss a game.

Breust needs to lift. (Just one example that is looked at) I understand he is a small forward and lacking opportunities but when he is moved into the middle and has zero impact or influence as a senior player well paid that to me is a major concern.

Loyalty from the club is great but needs to work both ways in regards to performance or that’s when you have major issues and a list that becomes very stale.

 

[eldorado]

The loyalty thing is a great sentiment for a certain time until a players performance does not weigh up with his remuneration..... Use Birch as an example. We paid him huge money (legend of the club) to be sitting in the Grand stand for essentially 2 full seasons and the moment we make the hard call he goes to Brisbane and doesn’t miss a game.

I'm not sure this is relevant to the ideas being expressed, to be honest. Did Birch do something wrong? Did he fake it for 2 years, or did he cop injuries while doing his role to the best of his abilities, and then do all the rehab to the best of his abilities?

This sentiment has nothing to do with the unpredictabilities like injuries, looked back upon with hindsight, or I may as well say we should trade Will Day now while he has currency, in case he gets struck down with injuries. I'm being deliberately ridiculous with this example, but it's to make the point that injuries are just an unfortunate part of the game. You can't look back later and say we obviously should have traded Birchall in 2016. Just like you cant look back after his last 2 years and say we should have hung on to Birchall.

 

[Lickmesocks]

I'm not sure this is relevant to the ideas being expressed, to be honest. Did Birch do something wrong? Did he fake it for 2 years, or did he cop injuries while doing his role to the best of his abilities, and then do all the rehab to the best of his abilities?

This sentiment has nothing to do with the unpredictabilities like injuries, looked back upon with hindsight, or I may as well say we should trade Will Day now while he has currency, in case he gets struck down with injuries. I'm being deliberately ridiculous with this example, but it's to make the point that injuries are just an unfortunate part of the game. You can't look back later and say we obviously should have traded Birchall in 2016. Just like you cant look back after his last 2 years and say we should have hung on to Birchall.

I think it has everything to do with the discussion but perhaps you are struggling with the reality.

Loyalty lasts so long. If you are under performing and being well paid for a period of time it’s time to explore other options.

 

[eldorado]

I think it has everything to do with the discussion but perhaps you are struggling with the reality.

Loyalty lasts so long. If you are under performing and being well paid for a period of time it’s time to explore other options.

Again, that's a completely different argument. No-one is using the injured Birchall example; this is about wanting to trade prime players only because they're in their late 20s..Breust every year, Gunston last year...now Mitchell, Wingard and O'Meara.

If two parties are loyal to each other, that's a good thing, culture-wise, and worth celebrating.

It can't happen in every case, or even in most cases...you have to delist good clubmen every year. Sometime, a player you want to keep wants to go.

So when a loyal servant can go out a one-club-player, and the club is fine with that, you embrace it. It's a thing called culture. You don't regret that you could have have wrung a few shekels out of them at the end by flogging them off against their will

 

[Lickmesocks]

Again, that's a completely different argument. No-one is using the injured Birchall example; this is about wanting to trade prime players only because they're in their late 20s..Breust every year, Gunston last year...now Mitchell, Wingard and O'Meara.

If two parties are loyal to each other, that's a good thing, culture-wise, and worth celebrating.

It can't happen in every case, or even in most cases...you have to delist good clubmen every year. Sometime, a player you want to keep wants to go.

So when a loyal servant can go out a one-club-player, and the club is fine with that, you embrace it. It's a thing called culture. You don't regret that you could have have wrung a few shekels out of them at the end by flogging them off against their will

At some point everything comes to an end . If the club looks after a player and gives them huge security like a 5 year deal of guaranteed cash then the player needs to perform to a level. The 5 year deal handed out is huge loyalty from the club up front.

As I said it’s time for Breust amongst others to lift big time.

 

[eldorado]

As I said it’s time for Breust amongst others to lift big time.

Leading goalkicker this year, only slightly down on his career average, in a side playing horribly

 

[WWSD]

Leading goalkicker this year, only slightly down on his career average, in a side playing horribly

Inside 50s (rank 18th)
Time in forward half (rank 18th)
Marks inside 50 (rank 18th)

I think Breust, Moore and Koschitzke have all had solid seasons considering the low number of inside 50s per game and the limited opportunities they’ve had this year.

 

[perrdan86]

Inside 50s (rank 18th)
Time in forward half (rank 18th)
Marks inside 50 (rank 18th)

I think Breust, Moore and Koschitzke have all had solid seasons considering the low number of inside 50s per game and the limited opportunities they’ve had this year.

Imagine life as a forward when your team is playing like that...

 

[Lickmesocks]

Leading goalkicker this year, only slightly down on his career average, in a side playing horribly

I liken him to Stevie J. HFF finisher howeve Stevie J went next level when the Cats got him into the middle and made him get his own footy rather than relying on others.

I reckon he has been poor this season as a seasoned leader .

Maybe my expectations for a bloke being well rewarded on a 5 year contract are more than others.

 

[Brishawk]

I liken him to Stevie J. HFF finisher howeve Stevie J went next level when the Cats got him into the middle and made him get his own footy rather than relying on others.

I reckon he has been poor this season as a seasoned leader .

Maybe my expectations for a bloke being well rewarded on a 5 year contract are more than others.

Breust has kicked a little over 15% of our goals. The leading small forward has kicked 16% of his team’s goals. Opportunities have just been too few.

 

[Brant]

I liken him to Stevie J. HFF finisher howeve Stevie J went next level when the Cats got him into the middle and made him get his own footy rather than relying on others.

I reckon he has been poor this season as a seasoned leader .

Maybe my expectations for a bloke being well rewarded on a 5 year contract are more than others.

If you liken him to Stevie J but don't like the comparison then maybe don't liken him to Stevie J

 

[big footy cyril]

I’d like to see clubs have the option of paying say 85% of the cap during rebuilding years and invest the balance in coaching departments. The end result being developing players with better chances at growth / equalization measure / better product for the game

 

[Brishawk]

I’d like to see clubs have the option of paying say 85% of the cap during rebuilding years and invest the balance in coaching departments. The end result being developing players with better chances at growth / equalization measure / better product for the game

It is a great idea but I fear the players associate will never allow it.

 

[BurnaHawks]

Pretty dame excited to see Jai Newcombe play his first his first game....... Carn the Hawks

 

[Turly]

I liken him to Stevie J. HFF finisher howeve Stevie J went next level when the Cats got him into the middle and made him get his own footy rather than relying on others.

I reckon he has been poor this season as a seasoned leader .

Maybe my expectations for a bloke being well rewarded on a 5 year contract are more than others.

I think they are considering he's in a crap team. How was Geelong going when Stevie J went into the middle?

Horrid comparison.

 

[bradburygold]

I’d like to see clubs have the option of paying say 85% of the cap during rebuilding years and invest the balance in coaching departments. The end result being developing players with better chances at growth / equalization measure / better product for the game

My small understanding of NFL is that this is allowed there with conversely you can back the % to use when you are ready to strike. Its really not a terrible idea - could play a part in stopping these 20 year rebuilds (or whatever build GC been trying to do since inception).

 

[Royal Is My Race]

Pretty dame excited to see Jai Newcombe play his first his first game....... Carn the Hawks

Bloody oath mate

 

[Lickmesocks]

I think they are considering he's in a crap team. How was Geelong going when Stevie J went into the middle?

Horrid comparison.

Get him in the middle and let’s see him get his hands dirty for a while.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Get him in the middle and let’s see him get his hands dirty for a while.

How about respecting him for the star that he is, recognizing that he’s had a good year in a s**t side and stop being ungrateful.

 

[Royal Is My Race]

Get him in the middle and let’s see him get his hands dirty for a while.

Surely he's proven that he's more than capable of getting his hands dirty throughout his career?

Also put his body on the line week in and week out - he's one of the best small/medium forwards of all time mate

 

[Lickmesocks]

How about respecting him for the star that he is, recognizing that he’s had a good year in a sh*t side and stop being ungrateful.

As a leader on good coin and a long term contract he needs to lift NOW big time. What he has done in the past is in the past.

It starts with his body language and as I said get him into the action and let’s get him involved.

The BS about being ungrateful is a total cop out.