Autopsy Round 13, 2021: Hawks sink the Swans

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Luv_our_club said:
Moore is really not one of the fittest at the club.

Having fitness in your recruitment profile does not make you fit.

He needs preseasons.

Scrimshaw has a bigger tank right now compared to Moore. Scrim is AFL ready.

Watching Moore play... he often is jogging on the spot, or laying on the ground for too long after the tackle or pack... not to mention times he flat out gives up.

He is about 20 games in: do you really think we have seen the ceiling of his effort levels?

Moore's tank isn't there yet. When it gets there, his output will improve.
Click to expand...

This is a strange argument to make. I understand the 'match fitness' concept, but Moore won the 2km time trial at the combine in his draft year and is constantly in the top 3 of our time trials over summer. His fitness cannot be questioned and won't suddenly get better now he's almost 22.

What you are seeing are direct results of the work rate required to play his position. High half forward is expected to play as essentially a third wing then play ad a defensive pressure forward once the ball is in our front half. It's incredibly taxing. The only way anybody could be chasing and pressuring at 100% is if they weren't doing the required work further up the ground, or vice versa.

No matter how many games they've played or pre-seasons they've completed, there is zero chance that Scrimshaw or Hardwick would be better suited to that position.
 
Blackhawk42 said:
This is a strange argument to make. I understand the 'match fitness' concept, but Moore won the 2km time trial at the combine in his draft year and is constantly in the top 3 of our time trials over summer. His fitness cannot be questioned and won't suddenly get better now he's almost 22.

What you are seeing are direct results of the work rate required to play his position. High half forward is expected to play as essentially a third wing then play ad a defensive pressure forward once the ball is in our front half. It's incredibly taxing. The only way anybody could be chasing and pressuring at 100% is if they weren't doing the required work further up the ground, or vice versa.

No matter how many games they've played or pre-seasons they've completed, there is zero chance that Scrimshaw or Hardwick would be better suited to that position.
Click to expand...
On point. You need the tank first to play this role. Moore has elite endurance, which will only get better with time. He's a keeper.
 
I dont know what ure talking about Luv_our_club but Moore leaves Scrimshaw and hardwick way behind in the fitness stakes especially scrimshaw
 

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Luv_our_club said:
Finn Jiath and Moore do not currently have more stamina than Mitchell or Hardwick.

They have less stamina than 10 to 15 other regular Hawthorn footballers.

It is not a criticism of Moore's potential to say that his tank is not yet fully developed. Look at Walsh - he didn't look like the player he is now in his first 20 games. Look at Brad Hill, as well as being a freak, he had the benefit of being the 4th quarter sub when he started playing afl.

Moore's ceiling for improvement is largely fitness based.

He demonstrates his current fitness struggles in every game - by failing to get up quickly after contests, jogging slowly in anguish, not chasing opposition. And he demonstrates it too by gradually getting better in those areas.
Click to expand...
You don't know how evidence works do you?
 
AFLCA votes

VOTES PLAYER (CLUB)
8 Changkuoth Jiath (HAW)
8 Tom Mitchell (HAW)
8 Jonathon Ceglar (HAW)
3 Sam Frost (HAW)
2 Ben McEvoy (HAW)
1 Blake Hardwick (HAW)
 
Strapping Young Lad said:
AFLCA votes

VOTES PLAYER (CLUB)
8 Changkuoth Jiath (HAW)
8 Tom Mitchell (HAW)
8 Jonathon Ceglar (HAW)
3 Sam Frost (HAW)
2 Ben McEvoy (HAW)
1 Blake Hardwick (HAW)
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but i think Jiath has more coaches votes then any player this year under the age of 22. Can someone double check?
 
WWSD said:
I could be wrong, but i think Jiath has more coaches votes then any player this year under the age of 22. Can someone double check?
Click to expand...
Sam Walsh is only 20 and in the top 10.
 
You could throw a blanket over the hawks players and all but a couple played a top game of footy.

For me,in no particular order, Cegs, Frost, Newcombe, and CJ were the standouts, but you could put others in there, too. Mitchell had a great day out, but he is an established elite player, and played to expectations.

Of course, Scrimshaw, who finally had a chance to breathe in a game, and Day also had a fantastic game. But what I liked apart from the physicality was they seemed to be understanding each other a bit. The skills still need work, but the ball was moving more or less in the right direction.

Also worthy of a special mention is Impey.. He cops some flack here, but he is tireless, tough and fast - he gives good run, wins the ball under pressure situations.. Yeah, sometimes the kick is a little wayward, but more often than not, it is to our advantage. He is a bit like BHP - the quiet achiever (as is Sheil, who also had a great game).

Onwards and upwards.
 

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TheFourPillars said:
Just for the sake of memory here is what happened in 2020

https://www.afl.com.au/matches/2806#team-stats

Memories of a free kick bonanza for Sydney and yet we were still close. Free kicks and umpires don't decide the game
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I’m not arguing with you but we lost the free kick heavily and lost the game and this time we won the free kick count heavily and won the game. Perfect correlation on those two examples 😂
 
Brishawk said:
I’m not arguing with you but we lost the free kick heavily and lost the game and this time we won the free kick count heavily and won the game. Perfect correlation on those two examples 😂
Click to expand...

I know I'm one-eyed, so I never pay much attention to the free kick differential. In my humble opinion it should always be 100:0 in favour of us! For the first time in over 40 years of footy I have to say that I think we got a few free kicks that were not there. Doesn't make up for the thousands missed though. lol
 
Rocket72 said:
I know I'm one-eyed, so I never pay much attention to the free kick differential. In my humble opinion it should always be 100:0 in favour of us! For the first time in over 40 years of footy I have to say that I think we got a few free kicks that were not there. Doesn't make up for the thousands missed though. lol
Click to expand...
Every free kick we got was there, it’s just they don’t normally pay many of them week in week out.
 
TheFourPillars said:
I dont know what ure talking about Luv_our_club but Moore leaves Scrimshaw and hardwick way behind in the fitness stakes especially scrimshaw
Click to expand...

"I don't know what ure talking about but..." ....

You start your post with a rhetorical line that is used in adversarial debates to insult the adversary. It is that kind of post that turns me off the Hawks page - Why is there a need for implied personal criticism? You could have said: "I may have misunderstood you but...". That stuff matters.

On the matter of Moore - allow me to clarify the discussion that included me. It falls into 3 categories:

1. Some think it is about Moore having a naturally small tank (i don't know why).

2. Some think it is about Moore having a big tank that is not that full because he hasn't had many preseasons.

3. Some think it is about Moore having a big tank that is full and among the top 5% range at Hawthorn and thus the whole league.

My posts have argued the 2nd point. Many have interpreted that as a cricticsm of Moore, and not as a view of where he can/will improve - especially given he is a running player..

I argue that players like Shiels and Hardwick are currently much fresher than Moore because of their many preseasons. Hardwick - who is chasing a more experienced Moore on the opposing team every week - also has a game based on running efforts too. He achieves it every week, for 4 quarters. Moore doesn't. Hardwick jumps up when tackled. Moore doesn't.

You say Moore's stamina "way exceeds" Hardwick right now? I say Moore could not run with Papley all game and shut him down like Hardwick did - not because of his smarts, but because he doesn't have the tank - Moore would bust sooner or latter - even if he managed it for one week.

Moore has a rookies endurance.

It is obvious just by observing the length of time he has been at the club. And by watching him play games The Moore we see now who drifts out of games, and often who can't muster 2nd effots or 3rd efforts.

Personally I can't jump on the spot for five minutes and yet I can run for 2 hours without losing breath. Most warriors on the wekend who play footy are fitter than me when a football comes out- it takes time - it takes years to build up to AFL level stamina.

As Crawford once said: "That's what I'm Talkin Bout".
 
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Luv_our_club said:
"I don't know what ure talking about but..." ....

You start your post with a rhetorical line that is used in adversarial debates to insult the adversary. It is that kind of post that turns me off the Hawks page - Why is there a need for implied personal criticism? You could have said: "I may have misunderstood you but...". That stuff matters.

On the matter of Moore - allow me to clarify the discussion that included me. It falls into 3 categories:

1. Some think it is about Moore having a naturally small tank (i don't know why).

2. Some think it is about Moore having a big tank that is not that full because he hasn't had many preseasons.

3. Some think it is about Moore having a big tank that is full and among the top 5% range at Hawthorn and thus the whole league.

My posts have argued the 2nd point. Many have interpreted that as a cricticsm of Moore, and not as a view of where he can/will improve - especially given he is a running player..

I argue that players like Shiels and Hardwick are currently much fresher than Moore because of their many preseasons. Hardwick - who is chasing a more experienced Moore on the opposing team every week - also has a game based on running efforts too. He achieves it every week, for 4 quarters. Moore doesn't. Hardwick jumps up when tackled. Moore doesn't.

You say Moore's stamina "way exceeds" Hardwick right now? I say Moore could not run with Papley all game and shut him down like Hardwick did - not because of his smarts, but because he doesn't have the tank - Moore would bust sooner or latter - even if he managed it for one week.

Moore has a rookies endurance.

It is obvious just by observing the length of time he has been at the club. And by watching him play games The Moore we see now who drifts out of games, and often who can't muster 2nd effots or 3rd efforts.

Personally I can't jump on the spot for five minutes and yet I can run for 2 hours without losing breath. Most warriors on the wekend who play footy are fitter than me when a football comes out- it takes time - it takes years to build up to AFL level stamina.

As Crawford once said: "That's what I'm Talkin Bout".
Click to expand...

....I think 4P is telling you what he sees, and as I understand it he gets down to training and games as much as anyone here.

Based on everything he sees in terms of running, drills and real game, he's telling you it's not close.
I believe him.

What you see I think is the 'requirement' running of a backman. You don't have a choice but follow your opponent EVERYWHERE they go that's dangerous, as often as they go, and you need to make multiple efforts because to not do so means your opponent goals or scores or assists in scoring or just makes you look bad. It's that simple. That glaring. And the coach won't accept less than 100% commitment to that effort. Doesn't mean you're going harder for longer, as a backman you learn quickly when and how to conserve energy, WHEN you think your opponent is doing useless running, and to save what you've got for when it's absolutely required.

As a small forward (chuckle) Moore plays on an entirely different leash. It shouldn't be thus, but it just is. The defensive small forwards who run incessantly and without question and enormous explosiveness are rare because it's a mental makeup. Cyril didn't have to have the biggest tank at the club, he just needed to be mentally brutal in his assessment of whether it was his turn to go and went full jet. Poppy the same. As that diminished for either they could both see the writing on the wall as we all could. Didn't mean their tank had changed, they just made different business decisions on what was negotiable.

If 4P watches the players and tells you Scrim and Hardwick blow up during an aerobic exercise waaay before Moore, you can bank it he's not making it up.;):thumbsu::thumbsu:
 
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Luv_our_club said:
"I don't know what ure talking about but..." ....

You start your post with a rhetorical line that is used in adversarial debates to insult the adversary. It is that kind of post that turns me off the Hawks page - Why is there a need for implied personal criticism? You could have said: "I may have misunderstood you but...". That stuff matters.

On the matter of Moore - allow me to clarify the discussion that included me. It falls into 3 categories:

1. Some think it is about Moore having a naturally small tank (i don't know why).

2. Some think it is about Moore having a big tank that is not that full because he hasn't had many preseasons.

3. Some think it is about Moore having a big tank that is full and among the top 5% range at Hawthorn and thus the whole league.

My posts have argued the 2nd point. Many have interpreted that as a cricticsm of Moore, and not as a view of where he can/will improve - especially given he is a running player..

I argue that players like Shiels and Hardwick are currently much fresher than Moore because of their many preseasons. Hardwick - who is chasing a more experienced Moore on the opposing team every week - also has a game based on running efforts too. He achieves it every week, for 4 quarters. Moore doesn't. Hardwick jumps up when tackled. Moore doesn't.

You say Moore's stamina "way exceeds" Hardwick right now? I say Moore could not run with Papley all game and shut him down like Hardwick did - not because of his smarts, but because he doesn't have the tank - Moore would bust sooner or latter - even if he managed it for one week.

Moore has a rookies endurance.

It is obvious just by observing the length of time he has been at the club. And by watching him play games The Moore we see now who drifts out of games, and often who can't muster 2nd effots or 3rd efforts.

Personally I can't jump on the spot for five minutes and yet I can run for 2 hours without losing breath. Most warriors on the wekend who play footy are fitter than me when a football comes out- it takes time - it takes years to build up to AFL level stamina.

As Crawford once said: "That's what I'm Talkin Bout".
Click to expand...
Hardwick and scrimshaw cover less ground than Moore. Moore was in the top five on the ground for distance covered at high speed v Sydney. You will not likely ever see either of the other two achieve that because their roles are different. It isn’t a great comparison.
 
Luv_our_club said:
"I don't know what ure talking about but..." ....

You start your post with a rhetorical line that is used in adversarial debates to insult the adversary. It is that kind of post that turns me off the Hawks page - Why is there a need for implied personal criticism? You could have said: "I may have misunderstood you but...". That stuff matters.

On the matter of Moore - allow me to clarify the discussion that included me. It falls into 3 categories:

1. Some think it is about Moore having a naturally small tank (i don't know why).

2. Some think it is about Moore having a big tank that is not that full because he hasn't had many preseasons.

3. Some think it is about Moore having a big tank that is full and among the top 5% range at Hawthorn and thus the whole league.

My posts have argued the 2nd point. Many have interpreted that as a cricticsm of Moore, and not as a view of where he can/will improve - especially given he is a running player..

I argue that players like Shiels and Hardwick are currently much fresher than Moore because of their many preseasons. Hardwick - who is chasing a more experienced Moore on the opposing team every week - also has a game based on running efforts too. He achieves it every week, for 4 quarters. Moore doesn't. Hardwick jumps up when tackled. Moore doesn't.

You say Moore's stamina "way exceeds" Hardwick right now? I say Moore could not run with Papley all game and shut him down like Hardwick did - not because of his smarts, but because he doesn't have the tank - Moore would bust sooner or latter - even if he managed it for one week.

Moore has a rookies endurance.

It is obvious just by observing the length of time he has been at the club. And by watching him play games The Moore we see now who drifts out of games, and often who can't muster 2nd effots or 3rd efforts.

Personally I can't jump on the spot for five minutes and yet I can run for 2 hours without losing breath. Most warriors on the wekend who play footy are fitter than me when a football comes out- it takes time - it takes years to build up to AFL level stamina.

As Crawford once said: "That's what I'm Talkin Bout".
Click to expand...

You've explained yourself thoroughly and that's fine, but it unfortunately doesn't acknowledge the most important fact.

Moore constantly is in our top KM's covered each week. You're saying Moore doesn't 'jump up' when he tackles and he drifts out of games. The required effort to play the position he does means that is always going to happen. Hardwick or Scrimshaw playing the same role as Dylan Moore would struggle even more so because their aerobic base is even lower.

I think when you say 'rookies endurance' you actually mean 'match fitness'. The match fitness and awareness required to play high half forward and lock down back pocket are completely different.

Also, and this counts for even more in a struggling side, forwards constantly drift in and our of games. Even the most elite ones.
 
Luv_our_club said:
"I don't know what ure talking about but..." ....

You start your post with a rhetorical line that is used in adversarial debates to insult the adversary. It is that kind of post that turns me off the Hawks page - Why is there a need for implied personal criticism? You could have said: "I may have misunderstood you but...". That stuff matters.

On the matter of Moore - allow me to clarify the discussion that included me. It falls into 3 categories:

1. Some think it is about Moore having a naturally small tank (i don't know why).

2. Some think it is about Moore having a big tank that is not that full because he hasn't had many preseasons.

3. Some think it is about Moore having a big tank that is full and among the top 5% range at Hawthorn and thus the whole league.

My posts have argued the 2nd point. Many have interpreted that as a cricticsm of Moore, and not as a view of where he can/will improve - especially given he is a running player..

I argue that players like Shiels and Hardwick are currently much fresher than Moore because of their many preseasons. Hardwick - who is chasing a more experienced Moore on the opposing team every week - also has a game based on running efforts too. He achieves it every week, for 4 quarters. Moore doesn't. Hardwick jumps up when tackled. Moore doesn't.

You say Moore's stamina "way exceeds" Hardwick right now? I say Moore could not run with Papley all game and shut him down like Hardwick did - not because of his smarts, but because he doesn't have the tank - Moore would bust sooner or latter - even if he managed it for one week.

Moore has a rookies endurance.

It is obvious just by observing the length of time he has been at the club. And by watching him play games The Moore we see now who drifts out of games, and often who can't muster 2nd effots or 3rd efforts.

Personally I can't jump on the spot for five minutes and yet I can run for 2 hours without losing breath. Most warriors on the wekend who play footy are fitter than me when a football comes out- it takes time - it takes years to build up to AFL level stamina.

As Crawford once said: "That's what I'm Talkin Bout".
Click to expand...
I think the misunderstanding here is toughness not endurance. Dimma is definitely tougher than moore and will probably always will be. Dimma will recover from knocks and tackles a lot quicker than moore. As far as physical fitness is concerned moore has hardwick covered as others have already said moore covers more ground than the others. The fact that moore drifts in and out of games has nothing to do with his fitness
 
WWSD said:
I could be wrong, but i think Jiath has more coaches votes then any player this year under the age of 22. Can someone double check?
Click to expand...
Has he scored coach votes in more games than any other hawk this year? Maybe JOM/Mitchell, but I recall he polled every game for the first 5-6 weeks. His development this year has been amazing, especially given he still seems very early in his development. Such an exciting prospect
 
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