Play Nice Random Chat Thread VI

[Themanbun]

It is something I should read more on in all honesty. I am coming from purely a political science and a biased liberal conservative perspective on this one, so even my views on utopian thinking are restricted to political area and then transferred to the philosophical level. Political philosophy is useful for most things, but they are still limited in its views on human nature.


Will look up both, thanks.

No worries.

For Shaw:

• Preface to Major Barbara
• The Intelligent Woman's Guide to Capitalism and Socialism
• Everybody's Political What's What

For Russel, Roads to Freedom is a good start. He took the freedom angle most seriously.

Both are excellent writers. They had many contemporaries who aren't as fun to read.

 

[rickety]

That's in a song somewhere

lyrics to me and bobby magee - Search Videos

www.bing.com

 

[AnEmptyChair]

Look, I don't have the academic background or experience of TMB or K4E, and they both know I respect them immensely, so I'm coming at this more instinctively, so it's probably all shallow nonsense without any basis in reality haha.

My instinct tells me that a young mum who works a minimum wage full-time job but has to skip meals to feed her kids because she can't afford to do both isn't free (more of a US context than Australian).

My instinct tells me that being tethered to a faceless corporate enterprise for a majority of your adult life simply to be able to put a roof over your head and food on the table isn't free.

My instinct tells me that a society where it's prohibitively expensive for people to access the fundamental human right of shelter and are forced to live under a scoreboard in an old suburban footy ground isn't free.

My instinct tells me that it's not freedom when a person can be born on the same day as another within 10km of each other, and yet one is born into poverty, with drug addicts for parents, goes to a school with 60 students per teacher and yet is told that they have the exact same opportunity as the other, born to 'wealthy' parents, sent to a private school with the best standards of education, given a hefty sum as a deposit to their own house in their early adulthood and given a job through their parents' business connections. That's not freedom.

My instinct also tells me that none of this has to happen. That we can have all the things that K4E talked about, the freedom to say what we want and so on (although I won't go into why wealth and 'owning' land are both bullshit concepts) and yet still not turn our nose up at the most vulnerable people in our society. Although I think the idea of freedom itself is a bit suspect anyway. No society is truly 'free' -- they're all bound somewhat by the limits of their collective moral standards, if that makes sense.

 

[SpiderBurton22]

Shitstorm incoming.

Katie Hopkins has been allowed into the country to be part of celebrity Big Brother.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Another professional racist who will whinge about cancel culture while being booked across multiple media outlets.

 

[AnEmptyChair]

I remember a long, long time ago someone mentioned the film Incendies on here (I think it was SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay -- if not, sorry for the unnecessary tag), and I thought it sounded like something I'd like. I added it to Netflix only for it to be deleted from there before I had a chance to watch it. Anyway, I was scrolling through SBS On Demand tonight, which is seriously underrated and excellent btw, and saw that Incendies was on there. But boy, I had no idea what I was in for.

What a stunning but utterly ****ed up and tragic and traumatic film. As the credits rolled, I sat there for about 5 minutes with my mouth open and just covered in goosebumps. Highly recommended to anyone that doesn't mind being repeatedly punched in the guts for a couple of hours.

Noticed afterwards too that it's a Denis Villeneuve film. That man is a ******* genius. Can't wait to see what he does with Dune.

 

[Themanbun]

Look, I don't have the academic background or experience of TMB or K4E, and they both know I respect them immensely, so I'm coming at this more instinctively, so it's probably all shallow nonsense without any basis in reality haha.

My instinct tells me that a young mum who works a minimum wage full-time job but has to skip meals to feed her kids because she can't afford to do both isn't free (more of a US context than Australian).

My instinct tells me that being tethered to a faceless corporate enterprise for a majority of your adult life simply to be able to put a roof over your head and food on the table isn't free.

My instinct tells me that a society where it's prohibitively expensive for people to access the fundamental human right of shelter and are forced to live under a scoreboard in an old suburban footy ground isn't free.

My instinct tells me that it's not freedom when a person can be born on the same day as another within 10km of each other, and yet one is born into poverty, with drug addicts for parents, goes to a school with 60 students per teacher and yet is told that they have the exact same opportunity as the other, born to 'wealthy' parents, sent to a private school with the best standards of education, given a hefty sum as a deposit to their own house in their early adulthood and given a job through their parents' business connections. That's not freedom.

My instinct also tells me that none of this has to happen. That we can have all the things that K4E talked about, the freedom to say what we want and so on (although I won't go into why wealth and 'owning' land are both bullshit concepts) and yet still not turn our nose up at the most vulnerable people in our society. Although I think the idea of freedom itself is a bit suspect anyway. No society is truly 'free' -- they're all bound somewhat by the limits of their collective moral standards, if that makes sense.

I don't think anyone needs an academic background to identify what freedom means to them and how the socioeconomic framework we live in affects that. You've nailed all of my thoughts to a tee, and for a lot of people it's a notion of fairness and justice that you don't need to learn from a book.

 

[koshari]

Shitstorm incoming.

Katie Hopkins has been allowed into the country to be part of celebrity Big Brother.

OK against my better judgement but who the hell is Katie Hopkins?

 

[koshari]

Look, I don't have the academic background or experience of TMB or K4E, and they both know I respect them immensely, so I'm coming at this more instinctively, so it's probably all shallow nonsense without any basis in reality haha.

My instinct tells me that a young mum who works a minimum wage full-time job but has to skip meals to feed her kids because she can't afford to do both isn't free (more of a US context than Australian).

My instinct tells me that being tethered to a faceless corporate enterprise for a majority of your adult life simply to be able to put a roof over your head and food on the table isn't free.

My instinct tells me that a society where it's prohibitively expensive for people to access the fundamental human right of shelter and are forced to live under a scoreboard in an old suburban footy ground isn't free.

My instinct tells me that it's not freedom when a person can be born on the same day as another within 10km of each other, and yet one is born into poverty, with drug addicts for parents, goes to a school with 60 students per teacher and yet is told that they have the exact same opportunity as the other, born to 'wealthy' parents, sent to a private school with the best standards of education, given a hefty sum as a deposit to their own house in their early adulthood and given a job through their parents' business connections. That's not freedom.

My instinct also tells me that none of this has to happen. That we can have all the things that K4E talked about, the freedom to say what we want and so on (although I won't go into why wealth and 'owning' land are both bullshit concepts) and yet still not turn our nose up at the most vulnerable people in our society. Although I think the idea of freedom itself is a bit suspect anyway. No society is truly 'free' -- they're all bound somewhat by the limits of their collective moral standards, if that makes sense.

You will have a moment of clarity one day when you realise that mankind instinctively looks after its own interests. Things will be a lot clearer for you after that point.

 

[SpiderBurton22]

OK against my better judgement but who the hell is Katie Hopkins?

Far right, British commentator.

Racist piece of s**t. Already bragging about flaunting our lockdown restrictions. Her and Kaitlyn Jenner have been let in the country to star in Big Brother.

Meanwhile thousands of Australians can't bring home their parents/relatives from overseas.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Does anyone else really like the sound effects without a crowd? The sound of the footy and the bumps etc.

 

[Swallow_Wood]

I remember a long, long time ago on here someone mentioned the film Incendies on here (I think it was SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay -- if not, sorry for the unnecessary tag), and I thought it sounded like something I'd like. I added it to Netflix only for it to be deleted from there before I had a chance to watch it. Anyway, I was scrolling through SBS On Demand tonight, which is seriously underrated and excellent btw, and saw that Incendies was on there. But boy, I had no idea what I was in for.

What a stunning but utterly f’ed up and tragic and traumatic film. As the credits rolled, I sat there for about 5 minutes with my mouth open and just covered in goosebumps. Highly recommended to anyone that doesn't mind being repeatedly punched in the guts for a couple of hours.

Noticed afterwards too that it's a Denis Villeneuve film. That man is a ******* genius. Can't wait to see what he does with Dune.

One of the best of the last decade. Stunning film.

 

[AnEmptyChair]

One of the best of the last decade. Stunning film.

Mate, I just sat there at the end, mouth agape, trying to process what I'd just seen.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Look, I don't have the academic background or experience of TMB or K4E, and they both know I respect them immensely, so I'm coming at this more instinctively, so it's probably all shallow nonsense without any basis in reality haha.

My instinct tells me that a young mum who works a minimum wage full-time job but has to skip meals to feed her kids because she can't afford to do both isn't free (more of a US context than Australian).

My instinct tells me that being tethered to a faceless corporate enterprise for a majority of your adult life simply to be able to put a roof over your head and food on the table isn't free.

My instinct tells me that a society where it's prohibitively expensive for people to access the fundamental human right of shelter and are forced to live under a scoreboard in an old suburban footy ground isn't free.

My instinct tells me that it's not freedom when a person can be born on the same day as another within 10km of each other, and yet one is born into poverty, with drug addicts for parents, goes to a school with 60 students per teacher and yet is told that they have the exact same opportunity as the other, born to 'wealthy' parents, sent to a private school with the best standards of education, given a hefty sum as a deposit to their own house in their early adulthood and given a job through their parents' business connections. That's not freedom.

My instinct also tells me that none of this has to happen. That we can have all the things that K4E talked about, the freedom to say what we want and so on (although I won't go into why wealth and 'owning' land are both bullshit concepts) and yet still not turn our nose up at the most vulnerable people in our society. Although I think the idea of freedom itself is a bit suspect anyway. No society is truly 'free' -- they're all bound somewhat by the limits of their collective moral standards, if that makes sense.

At the risk of being the bad guy for questioning this post, can I just point out that the "10km" example is categorically a result of bad decision makers causing the problem, vs good decision makers (who may or may not have had above average luck) giving their child better opportunity.

Surely the freedom debate isn't down to this sort of differential.

 

[Themanbun]

At the risk of being the bad guy for questioning this post, can I just point out that the "10km" example is categorically a result of bad decision makers causing the problem, vs good decision makers (who may or may not have had above average luck) giving their child better opportunity.

Surely the freedom debate isn't down to this sort of differential.

I think his or her point is that it's not the kid's fault at all that they are raised in those circumstances.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

I think his or her point is that it's not the kid's fault at all that they are raised in those circumstances.

I know that was the point, and I'm making the point that it's the parents fault.

Is society supposed to cover this in every case, so the drug addicts' children are sent to private school for the same opportunity? Because it's not their fault?

Shouldn't 'freedom' encompass accepting, and living with, the consequences of bad decisions / behaviour?

 

[Themanbun]

I suppose it is, but it's the parents fault.

Is society supposed to cover this in every case, so the drug addicts' children are sent to private school for the same opportunity? Because it's not their fault?

Every child should have the same opportunity to succeed in life, independent of their parents' 'decisions', IMO.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Every child should have the same opportunity to succeed in life, independent of their parents' 'decisions', IMO.

I clarified my view.

And I disagree with you.

 

[AnEmptyChair]

I suppose it is, but it's the parents fault.

Is society supposed to cover this in every case, so the drug addicts' children are sent to private school for the same opportunity? Because it's not their fault?

As TMB kinda said, my point is that children in so many ways are only as good as their parents and early childhood environment allow them to be. There is no equality of opportunity. The whole ideaof freedom in those circumstances is rubbish. Sure, there are absolutely exceptions that do manage to get themselves out of those situations, but cycles of poverty are very real. We can say that it's the parents' fault, but it's likely that there early life was no better and they were always up against it to pull themselves out.

IMO education and a really strong social safety net is the way to break those cycles. And the education point was about the different resources and outcomes in schools depending on the socioeconomic status of their postcode.

 

[Themanbun]

I clarified my view.

And I disagree with you.

You asked me a question.

And I answered it.

 

[AnEmptyChair]

I think his or her point is that it's not the kid's fault at all that they are raised in those circumstances.

Yep. And for the record, his. Haha I remember there was a time when I posted under my former account that Snake and Groin Guru, and maybe K4E, were convinced I was a woman. Haha I don't know what it is about my posting that gives off feminine/androgynous vibes.

I know that was the point, and I'm making the point that it's the parents fault.

Is society supposed to cover this in every case, so the drug addicts' children are sent to private school for the same opportunity? Because it's not their fault?

Shouldn't 'freedom' encompass accepting, and living with, the consequences of bad decisions / behaviour?

Hey, sorry to quote you twice, LTK, but I just thought of something else relevant to this. While I obviously think there are often mitigating circumstances to these things that influence people's lives over a long period of time, not just in the moment they make a decision/mistake, by and large I generally agree that adults should take responsibility for and accept the consequences of their own decisions. However, I think it's horrifically unfair for their children, who have no say whatsoever in the decision-making process that leads to those mistakes, to have to take on that burden. A parent's mistakes should never be a millstone around the neck of their children.

 

[Themanbun]

Yep. And for the record, his. Haha I remember there was a time when I posted under my former account that Snake and Groin Guru, and maybe K4E, were convinced I was a woman. Haha I don't know what it is about my posting that gives off feminine/androgynous vibes.

Nothing to do with your posting mate! Just trying to get out of the habit of presuming everyone on here is a bloke after learning that there are (some) women among us.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Yep. And for the record, his. Haha I remember there was a time when I posted under my former account that Snake and Groin Guru, and maybe K4E, were convinced I was a woman. Haha I don't know what it is about my posting that gives off feminine/androgynous vibes.


Hey, sorry to quote you twice, LTK, but I just thought of something else relevant to this. While I obviously think there are often mitigating circumstances to these things that influence people's lives over a long period of time, not just in the moment they make a decision/mistake, by and large I generally agree that adults should take responsibility for and accept the consequences of their own decisions. However, I think it's horrifically unfair for their children, who have no say whatsoever in the decision-making process that leads to those mistakes, to have to take on that burden. A parent's mistakes should never be a millstone around the neck of their children.

I think I did across a post or two, but I vaguely remember I was following the other two on that one more than anything. I have a hard time picking genders of posters at the best of times.

 

[AnEmptyChair]

Nothing to do with your posting mate! Just trying to get out of the habit of presuming everyone on here is a bloke after learning that there are (some) women among us.

Oh, gotya. Yeah, it just reminded me of that time with Snake and GG so I thought it might have been a trend haha. I know the whole how dare you assume my gender thing became a bit of a meme at one stage, but like you I try not to do that either.

 

[SpiderBurton22]

I lose track of who was who around here when people change names.