Review Round 20, 2021 - Hawthorn vs. Brisbane Lions

[dlanod]

Anyone interested in putting together a preview against Fremantle please let me know via PM and I'll hold the spot for you.

Otherwise you willingly settle for a less than half-arsed preview from someone who hasn't watching Fremantle play this year.

 

[martinson]

I don't know how many times I've seen our players ignore a player presenting , only to go the bomb .
We play the teritory game , but it's evident against sides that can use the footy more eficiently we are not up to it and play into ( literaly) their hands.
The alarming thing is these sides are not neccesarilly top eight sides.

True.

We go the bomb option if there's a scintilla of risk in any other option. When we do go to someone presenting it's a 15m kick deeper into the pocket.

At the moment we're not defending very well either when the opposition take risky options.

It's a lot to do with not running hard enough or being able to kick well enough . Things we've shown we can do on occasions.

 

[Jimmy Two Hands]

Bombing it down the line isnt our preferred method of ball movement it comes as a result of us being slowed down because we get pressured or don't run hard enough. Or guys like Birchall turning it over.

It's not like we have free players in the corridor and decide to bomb it to a pack.

It's just a backup plan and it helped us go from conceding 20 goals a game under Leppa to being a good defensive team.

It kind of is though? We are second last in the comp for uncontested possies and bounces - we dont exactly look to break down the fat side wing, or run and carry through the middle. We move from contest to contest, backing ourselves to win those contests and score from those contests.

When your contested marking is down and your pressure is down - you dont win those contests, and well - the last month is evidence of what happens.

If we are going to stick with this gameplan, Id almost swap Fullarton and Big O. Toms strengths are his hands and skills for a big man, which need to be around the loose ball and Big Os contested marking could help across half forward/wings in a more dedicated role.

 

[Gadzorks]

I don't know how many times I've seen our players ignore a player presenting , only to go the bomb .
We play the teritory game , but it's evident against sides that can use the footy more eficiently we are not up to it and play into ( literaly) their hands.
The alarming thing is these sides are not neccesarilly top eight sides.

The holding the ball on Berry was telling though. On screen he had Mitch screaming at him 20m away, but very decided to look for an upfield option. We need to get the communication and connections happening.

Traveling straight to Perth might be a good opportunity for the guys to get in synch again.

 

[mpal6]

It kind of is though? We are second last in the comp for uncontested possies and bounces - we dont exactly look to break down the fat side wing, or run and carry through the middle. We move from contest to contest, backing ourselves to win those contests and score from those contests.

When your contested marking is down and your pressure is down - you dont win those contests, and well - the last month is evidence of what happens.

If we are going to stick with this gameplan, Id almost swap Fullarton and Big O. Toms strengths are his hands and skills for a big man, which need to be around the loose ball and Big Os contested marking could help across half forward/wings in a more dedicated role.

The effort and intent Fullarton showed to move through traffic in last quarter was impressive. I think Bailey's goal was all Fullarton riding the tackle and dishing it off and later he got one himself. Lot to work with there, just keep playing him for rest of the season.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

The holding the ball on Berry was telling though. On screen he had Mitch screaming at him 20m away, but very decided to look for an upfield option. We need to get the communication and connections happening.

Traveling straight to Perth might be a good opportunity for the guys to get in synch again.

Yeh I don't get why we don't give the first option a go if that player is in the clear and in a better position, it should be a reflex action to give , not hold up and look for other options or in this case get tackled.
We can do it but it's not second nature for us ( at present).

 

[KissKiss]

The effort and intent Fullarton showed to move through traffic in last quarter was impressive. I think Bailey's goal was all Fullarton riding the tackle and dishing it off and later he got one himself. Lot to work with there, just keep playing him for rest of the season.

The big problem with Fullarton is that he is basically another super tall mid. He doesnt really know how to play tall and I think it screws up a lot of cohesion for everyone around him. Occasionally (like a few times in this game) he seems to luck out and the ball ends up at his feet and he uses it well but its not sustainable with our current gameplan/his role

When he plays as a forward he has no concept of leading patterns. He gets caught out time and time again in the wrong spot. Often ends up front and square while our smalls go up. With how out of cohesion Joe and Charlie are I think this is the change from Hipwood that none have worked out yet.

When he is in the ruck he seems to get well beaten by everyone. With his ground ball skills, he might be a better long term option here but he needs a lot of ruck improvement. And again would probably need more game time which has the flow on effect of moving Oscar out of what he has been training for 2 years at

 

[jackess]

The big problem with Fullarton is that he is basically another super tall mid. He doesnt really know how to play tall and I think it screws up a lot of cohesion for everyone around him. Occasionally (like a few times in this game) he seems to luck out and the ball ends up at his feet and he uses it well but its not sustainable with our current gameplan/his role

When he plays as a forward he has no concept of leading patterns. He gets caught out time and time again in the wrong spot. Often ends up front and square while our smalls go up. With how out of cohesion Joe and Charlie are I think this is the change from Hipwood that none have worked out yet.

When he is in the ruck he seems to get well beaten by everyone. With his ground ball skills, he might be a better long term option here but he needs a lot of ruck improvement. And again would probably need more game time which has the flow on effect of moving Oscar out of what he has been training for 2 years at

I think it's going to take Fullarton quite a few games like the weekend for some people to lose the misconception that he can't play tall.

It was a perfectly reasonable game for a key forward

 

[LongLion]

I'm a fan of JB but he has always seemed to be slow in taking the best option and regularly gets caught.

 

[twhowler]

It feels as though we have just not coped with the disruption and uncertainty of the year. 1 game at the gabba in 6 weeks. SEQ being locked down just before the game. Mid-week flights. I think we all thought with the Fagan mindset of being positive, and a flag a chance, we would be well placed to handle these sorts of disruptions, but we haven't. The drop off in effort has been astonishing - the two most significant markers broken tackles and lack of running. All mental. I was hoping for a 10 goal loss by the last quarter so we could realise how broken we are. Instead Fagan seemed more upset by Hawthorn's treatment of Clarkson.

Things we should be looking at for the rest of the season / off season:

Have a Plan B! - there is no worse side than us when we are on the backfoot. Everybody just stops. We have to get better at getting out of our defense and i think that needs to be some high intensity keepings off. We just chip to the pocket then bomb it. When another side is on top the best thing you can do is stop them getting the ball. So if they kick a behind or turn it over in attack, we need to keep the ball for a minute or two, get the other side chasing us a bit. This involves a change in game plan (training for this more), mindset (run, run, run) and players - Birchall out, Lester probably out too.

The other Plan B! This was more evident v Richmond when we just got smashed out of the centre. We need to be able to halve contests more reliably when the other side get a roll-on. I think J Berry will help a lot with this.

And the final plan B Did I spot Harris forward in the last quarter?! I'd love to see just a bit more willingness to try things when we are struggling. Fagan is very reluctant to make changes. Perhaps we need another tactician in the coaches box. Don't think that is Fagan's strength.

Change forward entries when we are smashing a side the long bombs in to forward 50 are fine. When we are not they are a disaster. It's not a hard tweak, we just need to lower our eyes more. Doing that another 5-10 times a game will change our predictability and increase our scoring power.

Midfield zip They don't all have to be fast. Jarryd Lyons

17

Jarryd Lyons

Age

31

Ht

184cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.5

5star

K

11.8

4star

HB

8.7

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

4.4

5star

CL

4.8

5star

D

21.7

5star

K

14.7

5star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

5.1

5star

CL

4.7

5star

D

11.0

3star

K

5.2

2star

HB

5.8

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

CL

1.6

4star

would be leading our b and f by a mile. But we should be conscious of the mix in the midfield and centre square an

Selection integrity just have to be willing to drop players a bit more readily. Cameron has had some shocking games this year. It's a tricky one as managing someone best in terms of their psyche is very individual. But the difference between some of our players' best and worst is just too big atm. No premiership team could carry the sorts of bad games that Cameron, Daniher, Neale, Bailey and even McCluggage have put in this year. Just the odd player going back to the 2s could send a message.

This year looks done. But I think this squad can still get it done. Consider potential improvements next year:

No lockdowns clearly hasn't helped us this year

Neale had such a down season. Gets fit again. Massive improvement.

J Berry had so many interruptions. Slowly coming back to it. Fit and firing a massive lift.

Rayner could still have that breakout season given how much time he has to recover and seems to be ahead of the pack

Gardiner an absolute rock in the backline who has missed basically the whole season

Cockatoo a couple of his kicks yesterday were absolutely elite. Massive upside if he gets fit.

Robertson / Madden / Prior / Coleman / Fullarton / Sharp They won't all come on, but we have given games to some very inexperienced players this year. History suggests that will begin to pay off for some of them next year. We had a charmed run on the injury front and a coach very reluctant to drop players so fell behind a bit on giving games to youngsters.

Maybe this is the 2000 of our premiership build-up, a disappointing down year. We had a good run with injuries the past 2 years and and charmed run last year with the comp in Qld. We still beat a Richmond side at the peak of its powers in a final with only Tom Lynch missing. There's plenty to work with.

 

[royboys4eva]

He's a whipping boy. Only 63% TOG today. He's building and a better option than Dev or Prior

At his best he is a better player than the other two you mentioned but he a long way from his best and I think Dev Robertson is going to be a very good player and should be in the side for the rest of the year. I would also look very close as to whether Prior comes in for Birchall. If we are not going to make an impact for rest of season get the young guys in and get games into them.

 

[Quigley]

A fair bit of criticism of Payne. He had two howling clangers but it is worth considering things in context.

He is a young and inexperienced KPD who got 22 disposals for the game. The 4th highest in the team. His disposal efficiency was 86%. He had 9 marks and 3 contested marks (second most on the team). He was also second for 1%ers. He had 3 turnovers which was less than Rich and Birchall and the same as Harris. Defensively he made a couple of errors but overall did a pretty good job in a group under a lot of pressure.

There was a lot wrong with the performance on the weekend but for me Payne was pretty far down the list.

 

[Nunez]

A fair bit of criticism of Payne. He had two howling clangers but it is worth considering things in context.

He is a young and inexperienced KPD who got 22 disposals for the game. The 4th highest in the team. His disposal efficiency was 86%. He had 9 marks and 3 contested marks (second most on the team). He was also second for 1%ers. He had 3 turnovers which was less than Rich and Birchall and the same as Harris. Defensively he made a couple of errors but overall did a pretty good job in a group under a lot of pressure.

There was a lot wrong with the performance on the weekend but for me Payne was pretty far down the list.

I thought Payne did a lot of good things. A few * ups, but kept digging in and did a fair bit more positive than negative - all while receiving little support from the mids.

 

[The Zork]

I'm a fan of JB but he has always seemed to be slow in taking the best option and regularly gets caught.

He backed himself from his first season to shrug off a tackler and it used to come off I reckon 75% of the time.
Now it’s the opposite where he gets caught often. And if he does manage to shrug it he’s still under pressure.

 

[On the quiet]

I thought Payne did a lot of good things. A few fu** ups, but kept digging in and did a fair bit more positive than negative - all while receiving little support from the mids.

I also thought Payne was OK, and like all disappointed that he would attempt a 15 meter pass to his vice captain which was for little reward and led to a goal. He would learn from that and if not then there is some genuine questioning of his long term viability. I thought the young man showed something going back out yesterday after obviously injuring his knee, would not be surprised if there is a ligament strain.

 

[jackess]

At his best he is a better player than the other two you mentioned but he a long way from his best and I think Dev Robertson is going to be a very good player and should be in the side for the rest of the year. I would also look very close as to whether Prior comes in for Birchall. If we are not going to make an impact for rest of season get the young guys in and get games into them.

Even now I think he's better than the other 2.

 

[BuntonRules]

The effort and intent Fullarton showed to move through traffic in last quarter was impressive. I think Bailey's goal was all Fullarton riding the tackle and dishing it off and later he got one himself. Lot to work with there, just keep playing him for rest of the season.

And several times he took strong overhead marks - something that has been missing from Tom's game.

 

[On the quiet]

Because I've criticised Payne after the previous 3 games? I think that counts as me being a vocal critic? I'm trying to be realistic about the fact that I probably hold some of his mistakes against him.

Harris' 4th game was the one against Carlton where he took a heap of intercept marks and contested marks. It was miles better than anything Payne has done so far, and Harris was in his first season - Payne is in his 4th.

Jack still has promise and I hope he improves but he's nowhere near Harris' early career.

A few long term stress related issues and COVID 19 scratch matches last year has probably impeded his development. Harris as he was developing had a bagful kicked on him on occasions, and even this year McKay kicked a few on him.

Like you, I think Jack has promise, but has to get the odd pointless 15 to 20 meter kick out of his game. Might be a young guy wanting to give it to his Vice Captain or senior players such as Rich etc. Coaches should just tell him to kick it 50+ down the line to a contest when deep in defence, leave Rich and Birchall to take on the more dangerous kick or even the short passes.

In his games that I can recall, I do not remember any of his direct opponents kicking a handful of goals on him. From memory McKay kicked 3 on him last year at the GABBA, and we all know what McKay is doing. Corbett kicked 3 on him recently.

Harris is an AA, we probably all just hope Payne becomes a good reliable member of our best 22.

 

[MacMum]

Have just not long ago arrived home. Was going to listen to the game on my phone, it was playing up, then I couldn't get scores grr.........when I did, wow and wow again! Couldn't believe it. Glad I wasn't able to see or hear it.

I'm not going to bother reading the gameday thread but I will be interested to read peoples thoughts on the game, I'll go through this thread over the next few hours...

I have been told that Fages has made comment about the treatment of Clarko by the Hawks.....if that is correct, perhaps he needs to concern himself with our team and not the goings on at the Hawks.

 

[jackess]

And several times he took strong overhead marks - something that has been missing from Tom's game.

After taking 1 contested mark in his first 7 games, he's taken 2 in each of the last 2 games

Plus there was the shepherd in the marking contest which allowed McStay a clear run at the ball for the mark that led to his first goal

 

[royboys4eva]

Even now I think he's better than the other 2.

I have seen Dev Robertson play some cracking games this year. You have a short memory to think he has nothing to offer.

 

[jackess]

I have seen Dev Robertson play some cracking games this year. You have a short memory to think he has nothing to offer.

Did I say Dev has nothing to offer?

 

[royboys4eva]

Did I say Dev has nothing to offer?

You have said many times in the last few weeks he has been poor and you just said you would rather Berry now even when he is far from his best than Robertson and Prior.

I think Berry is extremely lucky to be in the side as he looks so short of fitness and confidence which is no surprise considering how little footy he has played this year. I'm a big fan of Berry but he isn't anywhere near the player he was at his best and right now we are getting killed on the spread from contests so I don't understand dropping a player who has a bit of pace and is great in the contest. Play both if you like but I wouldn't be saying right now Berry is a way better option than Robertson.

Personally I would play Robertson every week for rest of the season. We are going need him as one of our main mids in next few years.

 

[KissKiss]

I thought Payne did a lot of good things. A few fu** ups, but kept digging in and did a fair bit more positive than negative - all while receiving little support from the mids.

The two really bad stuff ups were a kick in (I think) and then late in the game trying to take it on. The first he probably should have been the one to take it. But the last someone had to try and quickly get us up the corridor. Just unlucky that it didnt come off

 

[MacMum]

Not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere but I have just been on SEN twitter......watched a video of Davis King with Whately discussing our chances now for a flag. King says he doesn't think so..

..the thing that got me was King saying we have only won 6 qtrs of the last 16 matches. That is a deplorable stat if correct and his assessment of our flag asperations is right. No chance when put like that.