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List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

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Delisted;
-

Traded;
-

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Shaun McKernan

Current Players Out of Contract;
3. Zak Jones - Link
6. Sebastian Ross (RFA) - Link
7. Luke Dunstan (RFA) - Link
13. Jack Lonie - Link
15. Jack Billings (RFA) - Link
18. Patrick Ryder - Link
24. James Frawley - Link
25. Dean Kent - Link
38. Oscar Clavarino - Link
39. Darragh Joyce - Link
41. Paul Hunter - Link
42. Max Heath - Link
45. Sam Alabakis - Link


To see the full list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...
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puppy_dog7 said:
In 2014 WB traded Griffen and pick 6! For Tom Boyd!
they won a flag 2 years later.

2016 Richmond traded Deledio for picks 16 & 51.
They won a flag the following year.

even in the NBA Toronto had the balls to essentially trade Demar Derozan who wanted to stay for Kawhi Leonard, knowing he’d most likely only stay 1 year (which he did)
They won a championship that year and it didn’t matter that he left .

Its ballsy moves like this that we need to be making, and it’s this kind of play it safe mentality that’s got us nowhere for the last decade.

we could have traded (and I wanted us to) a 28 yr old Armo to the tiges for a 1st round pick. Instead we keep him and he does nothing for us and eventually retires injury prone.

Geelong go after Jack Steven, he requests a trade only to be kept for another year and we all know how that ended up.

We have been a perennially weak minded club that overrates it’s players and has nothing to show for keeping them.

it’s time we trade Billings or let him go if the pick/s we receive go toward helping us get someone like Bing next year.

be brave saints ffs.
Click to expand...

There is a very thin line between brave and stupid. Its hard to know which side we are on. Was the Hill trade brave or stupid?
Was moving Ben McEvoy on brave or stupid?
 
Mowman said:
Ross and Billing’s top 50 players not even close at their best and as good as Dunstan little spell has been he is no top 20 mid I just think if we keep them we go no where, they have had 7 or 8 years and have taken as no where
If we lose 2 of them or all 3 let’s see what we bring in to replace them
Click to expand...


What do you replace them with? Honestly there is no quick fix. We either go down hard and try to draft ourselves back up or try to remain competitive while adding pieces. I think this year we had a bad run with nothing working with the coaching, we had injury, poor fixture, players going backwards and some plain bad luck.

The only positive was that we discovered some depth....but now we are going to lose that. Those guys weren't the reason we went nowhere it's because we couldn't add enough good players to the pile. They were the best of a bad lot. Plugger never took us anywhere but not through lack of effort and skill. Stuv never played a final in his whole career but he wasn't shit or the reason we were no good.

Under Lethers we have replaced a lot of players but the guys we grabbed overall haven't been much better than what we had. Howard replaced Carlisle, Butler replaced Lonie, Jones replaced Stuv, Crouch- Dunny. The only players that have achieved what they are capable of are Steele and the second half of King's season. That's not a great form line to me, expecting that losing the older guys and hoping that what we have had happen once in 10 years will all of a sudden happen on a mass scale seems unlikely.

To me the reason we aren't playing finals is that we have guys like Hill and Butler types taking up spots when form doesn't warrant it. A lot of our kids got a taste this year but that lot is Bytel, Byrnes, Leo etc. None are likely to make a massive leap until they play between 50 and 100 games.

The guys on the cusp of stepping up and Clark, Paton, Gresham, King, Coffield. We don't have a heap of developing talent available. You can realistically carry about 4 or 5 kids under 30 games at a time before you drop right back to uncompetitive most weeks.

If you swap them for an upgrade that's fine but that FA pile is getting smaller by the week.
 

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SaintsSeptember said:
There is a very thin line between brave and stupid. Its hard to know which side we are on. Was the Hill trade brave or stupid?
Was moving Ben McEvoy on brave or stupid?
Click to expand...
Still don’t think either deal was stupid.

the Hill trade. I would want the club to do over and over again if they target and identify good players that fit a need.
 
kernelT said:
Who’s another wingman that gets 20+ and a goal that we can recruit for under 500k/year?
Click to expand...

He's only had one year in his career where he's averaged a goal a game, more like somewhere between 0.5 and 0.8.

Players with 20+ and 0.6+ averages this year:

Jack Steele - 28.9 and 0.6
Christian Petracca - 28.7 and 1.1
Marcus Bontempelli - 27.8 and 1.2
Luke Parker - 27.8 and 0.7
Ben Cunnington - 26.8 and 0.6
Josh Kelly - 25.6 and 0.8
Dave Mundy - 25.2 and 0.7
Dayne Zorko - 24.2 and 0.8
Tom Liberatore - 24.2 and 0.6
Adam Treloar - 23.9 and 0.7
Mitch Duncan - 23.7 and 0.8
Patrick Cripps - 23.7 and 0.7
Isaac Smith - 22.7 and 0.7
Dusty Martin - 22.6 and 1.2
Chad Wingard - 21.8 and 0.7
Jordan De Goey - 20.9 and 1.2
Kyle Langford - 20.8 and 0.8
Jack Billings - 20.1 and 0.8
Shai Bolton - 20.0 and 1.1
Jaidyn Stephenson - 19.5 and 0.9

Solid bunch, Billings doesn't exactly stand out in there though.
 
bergholt said:
He's only had one year in his career where he's averaged a goal a game, more like somewhere between 0.5 and 0.8.

Players with 20+ and 0.6+ averages this year:

Jack Steele - 28.9 and 0.6
Christian Petracca - 28.7 and 1.1
Marcus Bontempelli - 27.8 and 1.2
Luke Parker - 27.8 and 0.7
Ben Cunnington - 26.8 and 0.6
Josh Kelly - 25.6 and 0.8
Dave Mundy - 25.2 and 0.7
Dayne Zorko - 24.2 and 0.8
Tom Liberatore - 24.2 and 0.6
Adam Treloar - 23.9 and 0.7
Mitch Duncan - 23.7 and 0.8
Patrick Cripps - 23.7 and 0.7
Isaac Smith - 22.7 and 0.7
Dusty Martin - 22.6 and 1.2
Chad Wingard - 21.8 and 0.7
Jordan De Goey - 20.9 and 1.2
Kyle Langford - 20.8 and 0.8
Jack Billings - 20.1 and 0.8
Shai Bolton - 20.0 and 1.1
Jaidyn Stephenson - 19.5 and 0.9

Solid bunch, Billings doesn't exactly stand out in there though.
Click to expand...

Hey, Berg - how many of the above list average 6 tackles a game? Asking for me.
 
stavro#4 said:
Still don’t think either deal was stupid.

the Hill trade. I would want the club to do over and over again if they target and identify good players that fit a need.
Click to expand...


Yuk, both have been failures. Hill hasn't even been played where we wanted him too. Mc Evoy we turned into Dunstan and Savage. Then overpaid for Hickey and Longer to replace him. One of the key pillars in Trout's brown out.

Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Curren, Weller, Templeton. That was one of the less compromised drafts of that era too. GWS got the first 2 picks and pick 13 but after they'd had huge amounts of draft picks up to that point, it was relatively un-compromised. Bont, Merrett and Matt Crouch and we would have been okay but we didn't and the rest is history. Now posters would rather have nothing than any of those guys.
 
gringo2011 said:
Yuk, both have been failures. Hill hasn't even been played where we wanted him too. Mc Evoy we turned into Dunstan and Savage. Then overpaid for Hickey and Longer to replace him. One of the key pillars in Trout's brown out.

Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Curren, Weller, Templeton. That was one of the less compromised drafts of that era too. GWS got the first 2 picks and pick 13 but after they'd had huge amounts of draft picks up to that point, it was relatively un-compromised. Bont, Merrett and Matt Crouch and we would have been okay but we didn't and the rest is history. Now posters would rather have nothing than any of those guys.
Click to expand...
The McEvoy trade has to be viewed in isolation. Not a reflection on which you pick out all the players you wished we drafted.

if the success of that trade came down to who we drafted, then it was a success to position us in that situation in the first place. The failure of the pick has so many variable that extend way past the initial deal. So if your going to judge that trade like that. Then we continue judging that trade off the Dunstan compo - if he decides to leave.

secondly there are a number of people who want Dunstan extended on this board alone. Savage was decent for a number of years.

McEvoy wasn’t going to be the difference between us winning or losing games of football. He is a poor tap ruckman. Amazing mark. We were at the start of a rebuild.
 
gringo2011 said:
What do you replace them with? Honestly there is no quick fix. We either go down hard and try to draft ourselves back up or try to remain competitive while adding pieces. I think this year we had a bad run with nothing working with the coaching, we had injury, poor fixture, players going backwards and some plain bad luck.

The only positive was that we discovered some depth....but now we are going to lose that. Those guys weren't the reason we went nowhere it's because we couldn't add enough good players to the pile. They were the best of a bad lot. Plugger never took us anywhere but not through lack of effort and skill. Stuv never played a final in his whole career but he wasn't sh*t or the reason we were no good.

Under Lethers we have replaced a lot of players but the guys we grabbed overall haven't been much better than what we had. Howard replaced Carlisle, Butler replaced Lonie, Jones replaced Stuv, Crouch- Dunny. The only players that have achieved what they are capable of are Steele and the second half of King's season. That's not a great form line to me, expecting that losing the older guys and hoping that what we have had happen once in 10 years will all of a sudden happen on a mass scale seems unlikely.

To me the reason we aren't playing finals is that we have guys like Hill and Butler types taking up spots when form doesn't warrant it. A lot of our kids got a taste this year but that lot is Bytel, Byrnes, Leo etc. None are likely to make a massive leap until they play between 50 and 100 games.

The guys on the cusp of stepping up and Clark, Paton, Gresham, King, Coffield. We don't have a heap of developing talent available. You can realistically carry about 4 or 5 kids under 30 games at a time before you drop right back to uncompetitive most weeks.

If you swap them for an upgrade that's fine but that FA pile is getting smaller by the week.
Click to expand...
The reasons we aren't playing finals are:
our poor first half of the season when we were wracked by key injuries, caught out tactically and bipolar with efforts.

That is why we are not playing finals. Playing finals we are not. That is why.
 
bergholt said:
He's only had one year in his career where he's averaged a goal a game, more like somewhere between 0.5 and 0.8.

Players with 20+ and 0.6+ averages this year:

Jack Steele - 28.9 and 0.6
Christian Petracca - 28.7 and 1.1
Marcus Bontempelli - 27.8 and 1.2
Luke Parker - 27.8 and 0.7
Ben Cunnington - 26.8 and 0.6
Josh Kelly - 25.6 and 0.8
Dave Mundy - 25.2 and 0.7
Dayne Zorko - 24.2 and 0.8
Tom Liberatore - 24.2 and 0.6
Adam Treloar - 23.9 and 0.7
Mitch Duncan - 23.7 and 0.8
Patrick Cripps - 23.7 and 0.7
Isaac Smith - 22.7 and 0.7
Dusty Martin - 22.6 and 1.2
Chad Wingard - 21.8 and 0.7
Jordan De Goey - 20.9 and 1.2
Kyle Langford - 20.8 and 0.8
Jack Billings - 20.1 and 0.8
Shai Bolton - 20.0 and 1.1
Jaidyn Stephenson - 19.5 and 0.9

Solid bunch, Billings doesn't exactly stand out in there though.
Click to expand...
Some pretty handy players in there that earn 1mil+ per year and most of them would be on 700+

I think the point stands that it’s all good and well for foaming fans to say “he should take 400 or get ****ed” but his market value will be well over that and we probably can’t find a better player to replace him without spending a shit tonne in both picks and cap space.

His first month this year when he was fit was absolutely elite, 6 goals and 24 D... find me another player like that and I’d be happy to see Billings go.
 

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gringo2011 said:
What do you replace them with? Honestly there is no quick fix. We either go down hard and try to draft ourselves back up or try to remain competitive while adding pieces. I think this year we had a bad run with nothing working with the coaching, we had injury, poor fixture, players going backwards and some plain bad luck.

The only positive was that we discovered some depth....but now we are going to lose that. Those guys weren't the reason we went nowhere it's because we couldn't add enough good players to the pile. They were the best of a bad lot. Plugger never took us anywhere but not through lack of effort and skill. Stuv never played a final in his whole career but he wasn't sh*t or the reason we were no good.

Under Lethers we have replaced a lot of players but the guys we grabbed overall haven't been much better than what we had. Howard replaced Carlisle, Butler replaced Lonie, Jones replaced Stuv, Crouch- Dunny. The only players that have achieved what they are capable of are Steele and the second half of King's season. That's not a great form line to me, expecting that losing the older guys and hoping that what we have had happen once in 10 years will all of a sudden happen on a mass scale seems unlikely.

To me the reason we aren't playing finals is that we have guys like Hill and Butler types taking up spots when form doesn't warrant it. A lot of our kids got a taste this year but that lot is Bytel, Byrnes, Leo etc. None are likely to make a massive leap until they play between 50 and 100 games.

The guys on the cusp of stepping up and Clark, Paton, Gresham, King, Coffield. We don't have a heap of developing talent available. You can realistically carry about 4 or 5 kids under 30 games at a time before you drop right back to uncompetitive most weeks.

If you swap them for an upgrade that's fine but that FA pile is getting smaller by the week.
Click to expand...

What I can’t understand is why are billings and Ross who have both played well coping the blame for others who haven’t. If you want to know why we loose have a look at ben long 50 games with barely a decent game among them, Kent and so on. Even butler had a really poor year but it’s oh we‘re going nowhere unless we dump Ross and billings for unders.

We need to get more talent in not ship it out, how many changes can you have without destroying a team for years. You can’t just play kids no matter how talented example gws and you can’t top up an ordinary side with older players example North. Anyway get this badly wrong and we’ll be enjoying trips to tassie to watch what’s left of our club.

Anyone happy with second and third round picks should have another look at our list, we have plenty who aren’t and nether will be best 18 that might get you that and won’t be missed.
 
bergholt said:
He's only had one year in his career where he's averaged a goal a game, more like somewhere between 0.5 and 0.8.

Players with 20+ and 0.6+ averages this year:

Jack Steele - 28.9 and 0.6
Christian Petracca - 28.7 and 1.1
Marcus Bontempelli - 27.8 and 1.2
Luke Parker - 27.8 and 0.7
Ben Cunnington - 26.8 and 0.6
Josh Kelly - 25.6 and 0.8
Dave Mundy - 25.2 and 0.7
Dayne Zorko - 24.2 and 0.8
Tom Liberatore - 24.2 and 0.6
Adam Treloar - 23.9 and 0.7
Mitch Duncan - 23.7 and 0.8
Patrick Cripps - 23.7 and 0.7
Isaac Smith - 22.7 and 0.7
Dusty Martin - 22.6 and 1.2
Chad Wingard - 21.8 and 0.7
Jordan De Goey - 20.9 and 1.2
Kyle Langford - 20.8 and 0.8
Jack Billings - 20.1 and 0.8
Shai Bolton - 20.0 and 1.1
Jaidyn Stephenson - 19.5 and 0.9

Solid bunch, Billings doesn't exactly stand out in there though.
Click to expand...
If you talk impact on a game. Billings and Langford would be at the very bottom. Each other player listed - is very damaging.
 
ScrappyDo said:
The reasons we aren't playing finals are:
our poor first half of the season when we were wracked by key injuries, caught out tactically and bipolar with efforts.

That is why we are not playing finals. Playing finals we are not. That is why.
Click to expand...
It is probably a simplistic view. But on reflection of the year. It came down to moments.


If Higgins kicks straight against Sydney.

If we don’t sh*t the bed against the crows.

if we don’t sh*t the bed late against Port.

if King never gets injured again last week.

If king kicked straight against the cats the first time

5 games that came down to moments. We lost all 5.

flipside, we won the key moments in the GWS and GCS games.

had we gone 4/7 - in the above, we sit 7th outright. Probably play finals this year, in which we got decimated by players being unavailable.
 
bergholt said:
He's only had one year in his career where he's averaged a goal a game, more like somewhere between 0.5 and 0.8.

Players with 20+ and 0.6+ averages this year:

Jack Steele - 28.9 and 0.6
Christian Petracca - 28.7 and 1.1
Marcus Bontempelli - 27.8 and 1.2
Luke Parker - 27.8 and 0.7
Ben Cunnington - 26.8 and 0.6
Josh Kelly - 25.6 and 0.8
Dave Mundy - 25.2 and 0.7
Dayne Zorko - 24.2 and 0.8
Tom Liberatore - 24.2 and 0.6
Adam Treloar - 23.9 and 0.7
Mitch Duncan - 23.7 and 0.8
Patrick Cripps - 23.7 and 0.7
Isaac Smith - 22.7 and 0.7
Dusty Martin - 22.6 and 1.2
Chad Wingard - 21.8 and 0.7
Jordan De Goey - 20.9 and 1.2
Kyle Langford - 20.8 and 0.8
Jack Billings - 20.1 and 0.8
Shai Bolton - 20.0 and 1.1
Jaidyn Stephenson - 19.5 and 0.9

Solid bunch, Billings doesn't exactly stand out in there though.
Click to expand...
Dropped off a bit the last two years but partly due to injury and change in position. Gets back 2019 figures (25.7 & 0.6) and we wouldn't be having the conversation.

Might cost him a bit if he stays with us, but add some incentives and I don't think he will be in a lot of financial pain if he gets back to 2019 outputs.
 

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On the close moments that all went the other way - (the following will be hard to appreciate as a St Kilda supporter) - things like these eventually statistically revert to the mean.
 
gringo2011 said:
The Dogs won a GF against the flow and a big part of that was having an insane haul of kids like MacRae, Stringer, Daniel, Libba, Dahlhouse, Dunkley, Johanissen and Bont all playing well ahead of schedule. A few older guys playing career best footy at just the right time and as soon as they had won it they went into a hard rebuild. That's brave, take your premiership winning side and rebuild around your youth.
Click to expand...

Problem is we have neither a haul of young kids.or older guys playing career best footy.

All 3 are replaceable. Varying degrees of ease, but they are replaceable, and, probably with what we already have on the list. They are also the last of the 'Cho Era', so I'm not too sure if it would have a meaningful impact on the culture of the group either?

Making the call now will see maximum ROI. Each year we wait, we waste money and lose value.

It is a short term hit, for a long term gain.
 
stavro#4 said:
The McEvoy trade has to be viewed in isolation. Not a reflection on which you pick out all the players you wished we drafted.

if the success of that trade came down to who we drafted, then it was a success to position us in that situation in the first place. The failure of the pick has so many variable that extend way past the initial deal. So if your going to judge that trade like that. Then we continue judging that trade off the Dunstan compo - if he decides to leave.

secondly there are a number of people who want Dunstan extended on this board alone. Savage was decent for a number of years.

McEvoy wasn’t going to be the difference between us winning or losing games of football. He is a poor tap ruckman. Amazing mark. We were at the start of a rebuild.
Click to expand...


He was like trading Marshall now, it was a very risky trade and you would have to say it was part of spending so long out of contention. He was a developing high picked player (pick 9) who had leadership qualities and standards learnt under Rooey and Goddard traded for 18 and Savage with development put in.

You can trade out players on a gamble but you can't isolate the outcome from the the players we grabbed with the compensation. They are responsible for the list build and they got it wrong, the picks that we used on Hickey and Longer may have changed our fortunes even.
 
pebblesofsand said:
Dropped off a bit the last two years but partly due to injury and change in position. Gets back 2019 figures (25.7 & 0.6) and we wouldn't be having the conversation.

Might cost him a bit if he stays with us, but add some incentives and I don't think he will be in a lot of financial pain if he gets back to 2019 outputs.
Click to expand...
Yep so ratten‘s obsession with he who must be carried and injury and he still averaged over 20 possessions per game on one leg.
 
gringo2011 said:
He was like trading Marshall now, it was a very risky trade and you would have to say it was part of spending so long out of contention. He was a developing high picked player (pick 9) who had leadership qualities and standards learnt under Rooey and Goddard traded for 18 and Savage with development put in.

You can trade out players on a gamble but you can't isolate the outcome from the the players we grabbed with the compensation. They are responsible for the list build and they got it wrong, the picks that we used on Hickey and Longer may have changed our fortunes even.
Click to expand...
Marshall is better then McEvoy ever was.
So no it isn’t the same.

because if I was trading Marshall - I’d want a haul starting with a top 5 pick.
 
stavro#4 said:
It is probably a simplistic view. But on reflection of the year. It came down to moments.


If Higgins kicks straight against Sydney.

If we don’t sh*t the bed against the crows.

if we don’t sh*t the bed late against Port.

if King never gets injured again last week.

If king kicked straight against the cats the first time

5 games that came down to moments. We lost all 5.

flipside, we won the key moments in the GWS and GCS games.

had we gone 4/7 - in the above, we sit 7th outright. Probably play finals this year, in which we got decimated by players being unavailable.
Click to expand...
Overwhelmingly our bipolar efforts which you refer to as Shitting the bed. That's head and shoulders the no1 reason we're not playing finals.
Fortunately it seems to have been remedied albeit too late, but we've been all about the draft pick since the bye anyway so I'm actually happy and will be going for Freo this weekend.
 
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