Player Watch #46: Ben Miller

[Drunken Wookie]

Robbie Tarrant has one contract left in him I reckon. He’s not winning a flag at North, but he might win one at Richmond (or somewhere else). So does he want the chance at a flag, or to be a one-club player?

Likewise Talia… could go to a lot of clubs. Richmond would offer the chance of a flag, and he’d be moving back to his home state. I expect he’d be pretty cheap too.

Being a one-club player at Norf is like putting 10+ years experience collecting Centrelink on your CV.

 

[Mr Magic]

CCJ is as slow as a wet week in regards to being a backman. Ruck forward not too bad.

Look at Jake Carslie.

Even Dougal Howard the height plays a role in how he plays in terms of what he can and can't do.

That is where CCJ's versatility and ability to provide value in the Ruck and forward as well makes him quite valuable in addition contributions he can make across the ground in certain match up roles when his type is warranted in terms of goal mitigation

 

[tora tora tora]

Look at Jake Carslie.

Even Dougal Howard the height plays a role in how he plays in terms of what he can and can't do.

That is where CCJ's versatility and ability to provide value in the Ruck and forward as well makes him quite valuable in addition contributions he can make across the ground in certain match up roles when his type is warranted in terms of goal mitigation

I do hope we keep CJ. I reckon as he plays more ruck time he will find himself in the backline. Which is different to being a permanent KPD. As far as our list goes, when Soldo gets fit we have a glut of KPF/rucks. I definitely want to use a draft pick on a KPD but if Balta or Miller gets injured we could try CJ down back.

 

[Vauclose]

Miller can play a role. When Broad and Balta are back with the rest of our defensive third, Miller can pick up the second or third best forward. Worth investing in.

 

[Bojangles17]

I really disagree on the Biggie comment, physically he still looks a long way off. Here’s a VFL photo from him the season.
View attachment 1213594

I certainly believe in Biggies talent, ability and athletic traits. I do however think he could be a four to five year project. Someone like Biggie has been a real victim of Covid, it’s not often spoken about but with such a lack of VFL football regularly being played it’s made it very hard for some players development. He’s of course had some injury concerns along the way but Biggie has only played six VFL games throughout his two seasons on our list, I’m sure that doesn’t stop his development but I do think it could require some additional time, especially for the young talls.

My apologies for a post based around Nyuon on Miller’s thread but I wanted to use it to show why we have to keep Miller on the list. I really don’t see Biggie being up to regular senior football next year, regardless of going into any debate on whether or not Garth gets a gig next year even if he does I think he’s more of a Grimes/Broad third tall rather than a Astbury/Balta type who can play on the monsters and hold down FB.

I really think Miller should hold his head very high following his debut, he didn’t put a foot wrong. I am willing to acknowledge he’s still far from proven of course, but I do think it’s very important we often him a spot on the list for next season. Finding a really good, long term Astbury replacement is vital. We need to have a future ten year partner for Balta.

I reckon that’s a 2020 pic , he’s stronger than that now

 

[Jozzy]

I reckon that’s a 2020 pic , he’s stronger than that now

It was certainly 2021 mate.

 

[Grrr]

Look at Jake Carslie.

Even Dougal Howard the height plays a role in how he plays in terms of what he can and can't do.

That is where CCJ's versatility and ability to provide value in the Ruck and forward as well makes him quite valuable in addition contributions he can make across the ground in certain match up roles when his type is warranted in terms of goal mitigation

Howard and Carlisle are very mobile and lean. CCJ is a ruckman who can also play forward. Would you want him running after a lose ball with a forward hot on his tail? Not bad off the deck for a ruckman, but for a back give me Rance, Broad, Grimes even Astbury. He's a ruckman first and foremost.

 

[Grrr]

Miller can play a role. When Broad and Balta are back with the rest of our defensive third, Miller can pick up the second or third best forward. Worth investing in.

Or the tallest, which might be the best, the King bros etc. We so want for a tall mobile back even just to spoil. Darcy Moore would be nice, might have to settle for Miller to see how he goes.

 

[Growapair]

Why do you always get so caught up on heights as if once a player is over a specific cm they can’t play a certain role or no longer viable because there aren’t others around the comp

Just judge each player on their own merits

I think their heights is significant, through 17-20 our backlines only real weakness was defending marking ruckman, eg Mason Cox in the 18 prelim. It is no co-incidence that we have recruited two athletic junior ruckman in Biggy and Miller and devoloped them as key backs.

For the record, my opinion is to play Miller next year, he is not just big but quick with lovely skills on both sides..

 

[Mr Magic]

Howard and Carlisle are very mobile and lean. CCJ is a ruckman who can also play forward. Would you want him running after a lose ball with a forward hot on his tail? Not bad off the deck for a ruckman, but for a back give me Rance, Broad, Grimes even Astbury. He's a ruckman first and foremost.

You lost me when you said Carlisle was mobile and lean. Even Howard is upright and relatively stiff in his motion but thats understandable given his height.


The point is if the tall opposition forward is not kicking goals the role becomes redundant so a CCJ role is more relevant due to his versatility.

The tall forward looking the most ominous going forward seems to be Max King but even he has had goal kicking issues

 

[Grrr]

You lost me when you said Carlisle was mobile and lean. Even Howard is upright and relatively stiff in his motion but thats understandable given his height.


The point is if the tall opposition forward is not kicking goals the role becomes redundant so a CCJ role is more relevant due to his versatility

When he played as a backman at Essendon early in his career he was very athletic. Got bigger for sure, not so much lean but athletically build, as opposed to ruckmans build. Howard has good closing speed, the no.1 asset for a backman, CCJ has little speed at all and would get left at the gates by every leading forward in the game.

 

[Mr Magic]

When he played as a backman at Essendon early in his career he was very athletic. Got bigger for sure, not so much lean but athletically build, as opposed to ruckmans build. Howard has good closing speed, the no.1 asset for a backman, CCJ has little speed at all and would get left at the gates by every leading forward in the game.

number one asset for backmen is opposing forward does not kick/create many goals.

number two, mobility to negate and contest

number three overall contribution to team

number four other factors like speed

 

[Cdog71]

number one asset for backmen is opposing forward does not kick/create many goals.

number two, mobility to negate and contest

number three overall contribution to team

number four other factors like speed

Speed might be handy in spoiling a leading forward

 

[Mr Magic]

Speed might be handy in spoiling a leading forward

Having the umpire in your pocket is the most important attribute if you look at the bulldogs

 

[Moppey]

Just on Miller and Nyuon how many 198cm + gun backs are there??

Not many I would have thought.

Harris Andrews, is a freak but now Nick Riewoldt would even thinking of moving him forward in the finals ahead.

Darcy Moore is a freak in the sense his old man was a genuine superstar so he has the IQ in the genes.

Blicavs is a freak athlete for his height. Not to many have his CV on athletic achievements..

How many more truely gun defenders at that height and more??

Who knows with Miller and Nyuon especially Nyoun who has freakish attributes but it will not be easy and their development would not be a given given how difficult it is for them to achieve what is needed

You would be surprised at just how many kpd's are playing the game at 198cm or above. It has happened because just about every club has one or more blokes playing kpf in their teams who is above 198cm. Blokes like Mason Cox and Ben Brown have hurt us because we just havent had a kpd around 200cm.
Tom Lynch is 199cm and it takes a bloke Harris andrews size to stand him.

No key defender has to be a specific height they only need the ability to nullify and limit the impact of the key forward they are on.Just saying you have a better chance of winning or negating a contest if your are not giving away 10cm in height and 10kg size.

Today if your not around 197cm and athletic then to play KPD you need speed size and strength.
Take Noah Balta Mid range tall at 194cm still a decent height but if hes playing on say 204cm Harry McKay then hes giving him a decent headstart. But Noah can Combat him with his size 100kg, his speed/athleticism and strength. In essence its easier for him to body a bloke off the line of the ball because of his size and he can stand with him 1v1 because of these traits.

The simple fact is the trend in key positions over the last 10 15 seasons has been for taller players.
I think because there are now so many kpf's above 197cm it has almost become a requirement to have key defenders above 197cm. The outlier is they still need to be able to do the job otherwise their height means nothing.

We are even seeing it with mids where 190cm plus mids has become the norm rather than the exception.

We are talking about Talia so lets use him. He is 197/98 so he is at the higher end of the talls playing and he has good size to go with it.
If he was just 191 - 193cm then today he really has his work cut out trying to nullify 1v1 the many 198cm plus forwards that are going around. He may be still able to do it but it is harder to compete and it certainly would not be ideal.

Why do you always get so caught up on heights as if once a player is over a specific cm they can’t play a certain role or no longer viable because there aren’t others around the comp

Just judge each player on their own merits

100% Agree. There is always going to be exceptions to what appears to be the norm. FFS Dylan Grimes could play key defender for us if it came to it but he would constantly be fighting out of his weight division against a bloke around 200cm and 100kg you would not want him to get caught out 1v1 too often and your then more reliant on your system and team defense.

 

[Mr Magic]

You would be surprised at just how many kpd's are playing the game at 198cm or above. It has happened because just about every club has one or more blokes playing kpf in their teams who is above 198cm. Blokes like Mason Cox and Ben Brown have hurt us because we just havent had a kpd around 200cm.
Tom Lynch is 199cm and it takes a bloke Harris andrews size to stand him.

No key defender has to be a specific height they only need the ability to nullify and limit the impact of the key forward they are on.Just saying you have a better chance of winning or negating a contest if your are not giving away 10cm in height and 10kg size.

Today if your not around 197cm and athletic then to play KPD you need speed size and strength.
Take Noah Balta Mid range tall at 194cm still a decent height but if hes playing on say 204cm Harry McKay then hes giving him a decent headstart. But Noah can Combat him with his size 100kg, his speed/athleticism and strength. In essence its easier for him to body a bloke off the line of the ball because of his size and he can stand with him 1v1 because of these traits.

The simple fact is the trend in key positions over the last 10 15 seasons has been for taller players.
I think because there are now so many kpf's above 197cm it has almost become a requirement to have key defenders above 197cm. The outlier is they still need to be able to do the job otherwise their height means nothing.

We are even seeing it with mids where 190cm plus mids has become the norm rather than the exception.

We are talking about Talia so lets use him. He is 197/98 so he is at the higher end of the talls playing and he has good size to go with it.
If he was just 191 - 193cm then today he really has his work cut out trying to nullify 1v1 the many 198cm plus forwards that are going around. He may be still able to do it but it is harder to compete and it certainly would not be ideal.


100% Agree. There is always going to be exceptions to what appears to be the norm. FFS Dylan Grimes could play key defender for us if it came to it but he would constantly be fighting out of his weight division against a bloke around 200cm and 100kg you would not want him to get caught out 1v1 too often and your then more reliant on your system and team defense.

Yeah but a lot of these taller forwards are not much chop and miss a lot of goals.
if they where kicking more than 90 goals let alone one hundred you might have a point.

The truth is most are not Buddy Franklin

 

[Grrr]

Yeah but a lot of these taller forwards are not much chop and miss a lot of goals.
if they where kicking more than 90 goals let alone one hundred you might have a point.

The truth is most are not Buddy Franklin

That is true, there are bugger all good key forwards going around, although those King boys look the goods.

 

[Grrr]

You would be surprised at just how many kpd's are playing the game at 198cm or above. It has happened because just about every club has one or more blokes playing kpf in their teams who is above 198cm. Blokes like Mason Cox and Ben Brown have hurt us because we just havent had a kpd around 200cm.
Tom Lynch is 199cm and it takes a bloke Harris andrews size to stand him.

No key defender has to be a specific height they only need the ability to nullify and limit the impact of the key forward they are on.Just saying you have a better chance of winning or negating a contest if your are not giving away 10cm in height and 10kg size.

Today if your not around 197cm and athletic then to play KPD you need speed size and strength.
Take Noah Balta Mid range tall at 194cm still a decent height but if hes playing on say 204cm Harry McKay then hes giving him a decent headstart. But Noah can Combat him with his size 100kg, his speed/athleticism and strength. In essence its easier for him to body a bloke off the line of the ball because of his size and he can stand with him 1v1 because of these traits.

The simple fact is the trend in key positions over the last 10 15 seasons has been for taller players.
I think because there are now so many kpf's above 197cm it has almost become a requirement to have key defenders above 197cm. The outlier is they still need to be able to do the job otherwise their height means nothing.

We are even seeing it with mids where 190cm plus mids has become the norm rather than the exception.

We are talking about Talia so lets use him. He is 197/98 so he is at the higher end of the talls playing and he has good size to go with it.
If he was just 191 - 193cm then today he really has his work cut out trying to nullify 1v1 the many 198cm plus forwards that are going around. He may be still able to do it but it is harder to compete and it certainly would not be ideal.


100% Agree. There is always going to be exceptions to what appears to be the norm. FFS Dylan Grimes could play key defender for us if it came to it but he would constantly be fighting out of his weight division against a bloke around 200cm and 100kg you would not want him to get caught out 1v1 too often and your then more reliant on your system and team defense.

Which makes the case for giving Miller a fair crack even more important. 198cm, fast with a good leap, you don't need much more. He has a nice boot on him, which is a good attribute for a big bloke. Even if he is just a stopper for a few years until he comes good (or doesn't) it will still be worth it. Talia is pretty much a stopper, Grimes and Broad both stoppers in their early days.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

You would be surprised at just how many kpd's are playing the game at 198cm or above. It has happened because just about every club has one or more blokes playing kpf in their teams who is above 198cm. Blokes like Mason Cox and Ben Brown have hurt us because we just havent had a kpd around 200cm.
Tom Lynch is 199cm and it takes a bloke Harris andrews size to stand him.

No key defender has to be a specific height they only need the ability to nullify and limit the impact of the key forward they are on.Just saying you have a better chance of winning or negating a contest if your are not giving away 10cm in height and 10kg size.

Today if your not around 197cm and athletic then to play KPD you need speed size and strength.
Take Noah Balta Mid range tall at 194cm still a decent height but if hes playing on say 204cm Harry McKay then hes giving him a decent headstart. But Noah can Combat him with his size 100kg, his speed/athleticism and strength. In essence its easier for him to body a bloke off the line of the ball because of his size and he can stand with him 1v1 because of these traits.

The simple fact is the trend in key positions over the last 10 15 seasons has been for taller players.
I think because there are now so many kpf's above 197cm it has almost become a requirement to have key defenders above 197cm. The outlier is they still need to be able to do the job otherwise their height means nothing.

We are even seeing it with mids where 190cm plus mids has become the norm rather than the exception.

We are talking about Talia so lets use him. He is 197/98 so he is at the higher end of the talls playing and he has good size to go with it.
If he was just 191 - 193cm then today he really has his work cut out trying to nullify 1v1 the many 198cm plus forwards that are going around. He may be still able to do it but it is harder to compete and it certainly would not be ideal.


100% Agree. There is always going to be exceptions to what appears to be the norm. FFS Dylan Grimes could play key defender for us if it came to it but he would constantly be fighting out of his weight division against a bloke around 200cm and 100kg you would not want him to get caught out 1v1 too often and your then more reliant on your system and team defense.

Scarlett did ok...

 

[Moppey]

Scarlett did ok...

Im in no way implying that you have to be 198cm plus to play kpd Sheesh Mal Michael played in three premierships in a row he was only 190cm but was really quick and big and strong at 100kg.

What i am saying is it seems the trend for kpp,s is them getting taller and taller and nearly every club has a kpd and a kpf at around 198cm plus.
Have a look at what i said about Talia he is 197cm and 98 kg height size and strength better that hes 197cm than 191 playing on the many tall fwds going around who are 200cm plus.If he was only 191 he may well be able to still play kpd but it would not be ideal.

 

[tora tora tora]

Scarlett did ok...

He had a couple of taller defenders in the backline. Harley & Mackie.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

He had a couple of taller defenders in the backline. Harley & Mackie.

That all?!?

 

[tora tora tora]

When he played as a backman at Essendon early in his career he was very athletic. Got bigger for sure, not so much lean but athletically build, as opposed to ruckmans build. Howard has good closing speed, the no.1 asset for a backman, CCJ has little speed at all and would get left at the gates by every leading forward in the game.

Been thinking about traits of KPDs lately and watched Harris Andrews the other night. He wasn't super fast but as the deepest defender don't always need amazing footspeed, the good ability to get to contests and be effective defensively is important. That takes courage and confidence in your own ability. Now Garth (as 3rd KPD) seemed to play with zero confidence in the his role, if it involved more than spoiling. I reckon Miller could develop into a good solid defender especially with Vlas, Grimes, Broad etc around him

 

[Grrr]

Been thinking about traits of KPDs lately and watched Harris Andrews the other night. He wasn't super fast but as the deepest defender don't always need amazing footspeed, the good ability to get to contests and be effective defensively is important. That takes courage and confidence in your own ability. Now Garth (as 3rd KPD) seemed to play with zero confidence in the his role, if it involved more than spoiling. I reckon Miller could develop into a good solid defender especially with Vlas, Grimes, Broad etc around him

Andrews moves very well for his height, Moore from Collingwood, a few others. Asbury wasn't quick but a very good reader of the play and like Talia very good one on one. So no you don't have to be quick but it is an asset, as I mentioned Broad and Grimes without there speed would not be the players they are.

But the forwards are getting taller and more athletic. The King boys, Melbourne's Jackson, so we need a tall mobile back to go with them. Don't think we want to waste Balta doing that, he could be far more dynamic in another role. We have nobody else but Miller, and they don't drop from the trees. Biggy looked really good the last time he played, so maybe he will come on quickly. Great athlete as well but he's speculative. As you say, our backline is very experienced with Broad, Grimes and Vlas, so if ever a young bloke is going to be given a go, it is now. That's why I'm not on the Talia bandwagon. Miller will be back to reserve again.

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Just on Miller and Nyuon how many 198cm + gun backs are there??

Not many I would have thought.

Harris Andrews, is a freak but now Nick Riewoldt would even thinking of moving him forward in the finals ahead.

Darcy Moore is a freak in the sense his old man was a genuine superstar so he has the IQ in the genes.

Blicavs is a freak athlete for his height. Not to many have his CV on athletic achievements..

How many more truely gun defenders at that height and more??

Who knows with Miller and Nyuon especially Nyoun who has freakish attributes but it will not be easy and their development would not be a given given how difficult it is for them to achieve what is needed

I would argue that both Miller and Nyuon are just as athletic as Blicavs