Religion Ask a Christian - Continued in Part 2

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Jul 5, 2012
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Kidding, right?
Said no one ever. What a ridiculous strawman. Oh, and let me guess. The systematic murder of Christians at the hand of an atheistic government doesn't count, right? If only everyone were atheists! Oh, these silly wars would stop!
No, just no. Unlike Christians, atheists make no claim to moral superiority.

Doesn't mean we can't point out the egregious hypocrisy of so many Christians down through the ages.
 

CM9000

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I've been pretty honest in this thread that my decision to cease being Catholic was emotional rather than reasoned. But that's not how one arrives at atheism; mere rejection of Catholicism makes one either a lapsed Catholic or an Agnostic. The step to atheism was taken after research, and looking at the various justifications in favour and against.

I'm wondering a few things here. You've been in this thread before, and your attitude was markedly different then. What's happened between now and then that's gotten you so deeply into the 'them vs us' paradigm?

Makes me a bit sad.

These are good to start with.

1. If God is omnipotent and omniscient - as in, he is all powerful and all knowing - how do we have free will, at all?
2. If God is good, why does evil exist?
3. If God is good, why does he allow evil to be done in his name? Why does he allow lies to be told in his name?
4. If any of the Bible is supposed to be God's word/commandments which he wants humans to follow, how can you reject any single commandment within the Bible?

Bear in mind, I've asked them before here, but the problem is that those who've attempted to answer them are extremely few in number, and they either couldn't answer or tried to answer theologically. And a theological answer to a logical question is somewhat doomed to fail.

I find it interesting you demarcate between logic and theology like that. In Medieval philosophy, the logic of Aristotle was developed and used to talk about God by the academics of that time, which is where the Ontological Argument came from. Plato himself viewed logic (and hence, mathematics) as among the most valuable of the academic disciplines, as it allowed one to access a divine realm (the world of Forms). For a large period of human history, philosophers believed that logic could be utilised to understand and expand the theological doctrines, and vice versa. Those are theological questions, so they do require such an answer; I’m not sure what you mean by that last statement. Unless by “theological answer“ you mean “God did it”, in which case, that isn’t a theological answer at all.

Unfortunately, I can’t engage in these questions right now, as I’m too busy at the moment (work, learning etc), but I’ll get to them at a later date.
 
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I find it interesting you demarcate between logic and theology like that. In Medieval philosophy, the logic of Aristotle was developed and used to talk about God by the academics of that time, which is where the Ontological Argument came from. Plato himself viewed logic (and hence, mathematics) as among the most valuable of the academic disciplines, as it allowed one to access a divine realm (the world of Forms). For a large period of human history, philosophers believed that logic could be utilised to understand and expand the theological doctrines, and vice versa. Those are theological questions, so they do require such an answer; I’m not sure what you mean by that last statement. Unless by “theological answer“ you mean “God did it”, in which case, that isn’t a theological answer at all.

Unfortunately, I can’t engage in these questions right now, as I’m too busy at the moment (work, learning etc), but I’ll get to them at a later date.
I make the demarcation between what I should say is formal logic - reducing arguments down to argument structure to ensure that the arguments are sound, and if the premises are correct the conclusion cannot be avoided; we cannot be 'right' or 'correct', but we can at the very least approach the least 'not wrong' argument or interpretation possible - and theology.

Feel free to come back later, if you like. I'm pretty resigned to not really getting an answer for these questions, seeing as I've been asking them for more or less 15 years.
 
Aug 19, 2004
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Said no one ever. What a ridiculous strawman. Oh, and let me guess. The systematic murder of Christians at the hand of an atheistic government doesn't count, right? If only everyone were atheists! Oh, these silly wars would stop!



Any kind? So, you'll agree that its immoral to judge me as being an ideological idiot because I'm a YEC? Are you listening Total Power? Don't judge me or my intelligence based on my beliefs. It's 'immoral', whatever that means.

Hahahaha, flying spaghetti monster. Ahaha, now THAT's funny.

If you are YEC, you are dumb, sorry, no disrespect to you, but you are right up there with flat earth, Alien abductions and scientology, not worth replying to.
 
Aug 19, 2004
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I think first and foremost, Christianity is trying to layout the pathway to God, so if they use local stories to help demonstrate that pathway, then that is consistent with the Christian & Jesus mission.

On this, I heard a Christian take on the Acknowledgement of Country the other day - incorporating respect for First Nation lands, culture, spirituality and with a little bit of Jesus thrown in. They are still at it.

Aren't all religions? but claiming to have a copyright on God and the 'Only' way to God like Christians in this thread have claimed? I have clearly given examples of other religions and quotes from Jesus borrowed from other religions, i tend to agree with you on this, Gnositcism preached the union of all religions but do tell if that sits well with Christians? it didn't and it still won/t
 
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I can definitely see how people might think that way. The only bit I took issue with was the "utmost to con people" line. In my experience the vast majority of the people in the Catholic hierarchy honestly believe in the mission.

Yes, if you read history, there is a purpose to con people. The hebrew babel is a complete fabrication by a small group of Isrealites who wanted to exalt themselves over everyone else. While they were exiled in Babylon, they discovered all the Sumerian myths of creation, the epics of Gilgamesh where their Noah flood story is copied from. The Legend of Sargon the Great they fabricate part of the Moses story. Sargon s birth story that his mother had a secret pregnancy and could not keep him so she tugged him in a basket safely and he floated down the Euphrates river where a gardner of the king finds him.

The book of lamentations they plagerize from the Laments of Ur and 4 other cities after being conquered or destroyed. Their code of laws and code of rules were taken from king Ur Namme tablets of law and his code of rules similar to the Hammurabi code of laws. None of this existed before they were taken captive to Babylon. It was all fabricated in Babylon and with a covenant that named them god s chosen people. TOTAL fabrication.

It was after they returned to Jerusalem that they edited and finalized their colossal creation. They re invented themselves as superior to all others. When they return from Babylon, they find that the yahweist isrealites they had left behind were back to polytheistic worship so they decided to bring back the pantheon of lesser gods making them into a hierarchy of angels and demons. This is the other part of the moses story. When he comes back from mt sinai and finds the people worshipping a cow. Moses breaks the tablets. They just edit n accomodate the pantheon of gods so they would have more appeal to the polytheistic population.

Abrahamic faiths that have a poor understanding of myth in ancient society. Yahweh was merely a nationalistic God, the God of Israel. Adherents to the Abrahamic faiths don't understand that.
 

Sixandahalf

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We’re participating in the incredible story that is life on earth.

Where your thinking comes unstuck is you understand the awesomeness of life on this planet but you erroneously then jump to deciding that that awesomeness has to have “meaning”. Classic human ego. (Albeit, understandable, because we humans have evolved so far it’s natural to think we MUST be special. We’re not. We’re incredible, but we’re just bit players in this huge pageant called life.)


Not to sound condescending but I always thought the crowd of mockers here were dull, depressing, and uninspiring. You may disagree and say your life is all peachy and you're happy in life but the way you look at and live life itself (your mentality) doesn't agree.

In fact your mentality is the opposite to people who've made significant impact in this world.

Was it human ego when Nelson Mandela found purpose which saw him spend a good chunk of his life in prison?

You're not participating in anything of substance, that's the sad reality. You may be participating in living to your death but that's about it. You've removed the one thing that gives us humans drive to excel, "purpose", and downplayed it to the point that you've probably bought what you're selling.
 

travelli

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Not to sound condescending but I always thought the crowd of mockers here were dull, depressing, and uninspiring. You may disagree and say your life is all peachy and you're happy in life but the way you look at and live life itself (your mentality) doesn't agree.

In fact your mentality is the opposite to people who've made significant impact in this world.

Was it human ego when Nelson Mandela found purpose which saw him spend a good chunk of his life in prison?

You're not participating in anything of substance, that's the sad reality. You may be participating in living to your death but that's about it. You've removed the one thing that gives us humans drive to excel, "purpose", and downplayed it to the point that you've probably bought what you're selling.
"Ultimately, faith is a choice.

One can choose to believe that nothing exists beyond the material realm, that the universe originated purely through physical processes that reflect nothing more than the articulation of the most basic properties of matter and energy — without cause, value or purpose.

Or one can view the universe itself as an animating spirit that binds together the souls of you and me and everyone else — perhaps everything else — that is or was or has ever been"
 

travelli

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Aren't all religions? but claiming to have a copyright on God and the 'Only' way to God like Christians in this thread have claimed? I have clearly given examples of other religions and quotes from Jesus borrowed from other religions, i tend to agree with you on this, Gnositcism preached the union of all religions but do tell if that sits well with Christians? it didn't and it still won/t
I get that your experience with Christianity might have been constricting, but mainstream is moving more towards small c catholic, as in universal spirituality.

You guys tend to target the faults in the literal interpretation in the Bible, but the obsession with the centuries old details is just a distraction.

It's this moderate, all encompassing, open church that is more interesting, as by being open to other religions and identifying the commonalities that the church it is absorbing them within itself.
 
Aug 19, 2004
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I get that your experience with Christianity might have been constricting, but mainstream is moving more towards small c catholic, as in universal spirituality.

You guys tend to target the faults in the literal interpretation in the Bible, but the obsession with the centuries old details is just a distraction.

It's this moderate, all encompassing, open church that is more interesting, as by being open to other religions and identifying the commonalities that the church it is absorbing them within itself.

I am also a gnostic, which is pretty much universal spirituality so i am in agrement with you. Interventionist God almost certainly doesn't exist, is my point but isn't that the very basis of Mainstream Christianity? the few pillars of Christianity is OS and salvation through faith? there's been many Christians in this thread, none of them argued otherwise.

Literally every culture has its gods or a conception of a creator diety. From the sentinelese to a new yorker, they will have some idea of it. People also assume that a divine prescence wouldn’t use breadcrumbs to have people find him, or would intervene privately when the time is right suspending the laws of nature.
 
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Yes, if you read history, there is a purpose to con people.

And for a small group of elites to establish and maintain power and authority over the general populace. The Judean priestly caste and elite aristocracy needed an invented 'God' for their own political agenda. They built up Yahweh's cult, forced all their people to worship him to the exclusion of all others and invented laws and other societal strictures that they passed off as Yahweh's (God's) divine law or as blessed and approved by Yahweh ('God'). Their writings to reinforce this we now know as the Books of Leviticus, Deuteronomy etc. were constructed around 620 BC

The next thing to do was to construct a history to re-inforce the basic messages. The works of this movement of writers - almost certainly an order of Judaic priests - is found in the Books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings and also parts of the book of Jeremiah. These books tended to be written largely in the reign of the reformer King Josiah and together with a basic draft of what would become the Book of Deuteronomy would be edited significantly during and after the Babylonian exile. To re-inforce the worship of Yahweh (orignally a thunder / sky god) was further recast and re-imagined as a creator god with older stories and concepts borrowed from Sumerian, Mesopotamian, Babylonian and Persian (Zoroastrian) sources and shaped to the Judean / Hebrew story.

Particularly Zoroastrianism.

So for example the figure of Satan effectively has its origins in the older Persian religion of Zoroastrianism, which is centralised on Ahura Mazda vs. Angra Mainyu (Ahriman). Zoroaster taught that Ahura Mazda and Ahriman would continually battle each other until the God of Evil (Ahriman) is finally defeated. At this time, according to Zoroastrianism, the dead will be resurrected, a Last Judgement will divide all the people that have ever lived into two groups; the evil go to Hell for all eternity; the good go to Paradise.

After the Babylonian Exile, the idea of a moralized afterlife, with heavenly rewards for the good and hellish punishment for the evil, appear in Judaism. Even one of the words for heaven in the Bible is Paradise - and this word, from the ancient Iranian words pairi-daeza, 'enclosed garden', is one of the very few definite Persian loan-words in the Bible and indicates a significant Zoroastrian influence. Zoroastrian dualism now concept appears in other Jewish writings: God (Yahweh - originally a vengeful Canaaanite / Edomite thunder god) was now looked upon as wholly good; Satan as profoundly evil. Satan, and his demons, were now humanity's greatest enemies.

So in the younger story of Adam and Eve (the name Adam is almost certainly from a Sumerian king list which was written somewhere between 500BC and 300 BC), the snake represents Satan, or the Devil, Ahriman, the Evil Spirit. According to the Persian legend in the Bundish, the full version of which was in the lost parts of the Zend-Avesta, Meschia and Meschiane, the first man and woman, were seduced by Ahriman, in the form of a serpent, and they committed "in thought, word, and deed, the carnal sin, and thus tainted with original sin all their descendants". Mixed in with elements of the Prometheus myth and the Babylonian creation myths you have mentioned earlier, the deity of Yahweh is now transformed into a wholly good almighty Creator god, who created everything. Some transformation from a localised thunder god he started out as.

So, many beliefs of Christianity are in fact the beliefs of older religions. And as you've argued, very correctly in my view, the stories in the Bible are largely copies or the amalgamation of several older stories, adapted and written as the Hebrews came into contact with the Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians (Zoroaster) and the Greeks in particular.
 
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It's sad to see people mock and disrespect the one true FSM, though it was foretold that unbelieving heathens would do so in the holy cookbook.


All bow to His Noodliness. His Word may be found here. This Word is all the proof you need of the divinity of the FSM and that the invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe.

41sjzA4AA6L._SX321_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg



And remember.....



The-Flying-Spaghetti-Monster-Boiled-for-your-Sins.jpg
 

Evolved1

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All bow to His Noodliness. His Word may be found here. This Word is all the proof you need of the divinity of the FSM and that the invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe.

41sjzA4AA6L._SX321_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg



And remember.....



The-Flying-Spaghetti-Monster-Boiled-for-your-Sins.jpg
As a man of faith, I find the evidence irrefutable.

I'm off to boil some ramen now in honor of his noodly goodness.
 
Aug 19, 2004
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"Ultimately, faith is a choice.

One can choose to believe that nothing exists beyond the material realm, that the universe originated purely through physical processes that reflect nothing more than the articulation of the most basic properties of matter and energy — without cause, value or purpose.

Or one can view the universe itself as an animating spirit that binds together the souls of you and me and everyone else — perhaps everything else — that is or was or has ever been"

I would add t's SUB-conscious, the result of lifelong indoctrination by your family, friends, community, church. Most people believe what they were taught to believe. That's why you see so many countries that are majority one religion. That's why your religion generally matches that of your parents and grandparents. There may be huge penalties put on someone if they try to change religions: their family, friends, community, school, employment all may react badly.

Beliefs ARE a choice, just generally not a choice made by the believer. Their religion was chosen for them. That's why religion mostly depends on the place of birth. Not able to crticially investigate your belief however is a choice. That's why so many people believe in flat earth or conspiracy theories or even literal interpretation of Genesis like Indo here.
 
Aug 19, 2004
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As a man of faith, I find the evidence irrefutable.

I'm off to boil some ramen now in honor of his noodly goodness.

I was convinced of my church of flying spaghetti monster upon my first visit to Korea. And now you entice me to make a ramen at home while watching Geelong getting smashed lol.
 
Oct 17, 2000
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If you read the whole chapter in 31 the man he is talking about was raised from the dead.

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

One man is Adam.
 
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