How do we take the next step to a premiership?

[jackess]

We arn't in GF because we went out in straight sets. Full stop.

So you’re saying we would have beaten port?

 

[POBT]

2019 Finals > QF- Tigers 112 d Lions 65. SF- Giants 83 d Lions 80.

2020 Finals > QF- Lions 69 d Tigers 54. PF- Cats 82 d Lions 42.

2021 Finals > QF- Demons 93 d Lions 60. SF- Bulldogs 79 d Lions 78.
_____________________________________________________________________

The 2019 QF in our first final in eons against a seasoned finals side was to be expected.

The 2020 PF and 2021 QF were 2 disappointing performances, for some inexplicable reason we didn't look totally up for it on the night.

The 2020 QF performance was awesome, our next step is bringing that sort of heat to all our finals.

The 2019 SF and 2021 SF were toss of the coin games still in the balance in the last 30 seconds, bounce of the ball away from the Prelims, no way you could say we were shown up for much at all in those 2 games. Nearly every premiership side has gone through a few years of heartbreak in the years preceding the flag win.

Onward and upward towards 2022 ............ and beyond, with some clever trading and nailing a few draft selections we should be highly competitive for the rest of this decade, even post Richy, Zorks --- Lyons and Neale.

I’m not in the “throw out the baby and the bath water” camp but I’m also not in the “success is inevitable with this list” group. I think the truth is somewhere in between.

There are a couple of ways to look at our finals record. But I think that over 6 games, the win against Richmond looks to be the outlier and yet, it is the level that we need to be able to reproduce every final and as yet have been unable to do. That’s been the most disappointing thing of the past two years IMO - that we can’t sustain or replicate that sort of level. The very small margins in semis is a comfort but the reality is that each year we’ve been beaten comfortably by one team. We need to bridge that gap.

I think our ability to change the list is pretty limited but I also don’t think that’s a problem. We have lots of latent talent on the list and very few players ageing. So most players will either maintain or grow.

I think our game is too reliant on winning contested footy and we don’t have a structure that copes well with losing contests. Once we lose the contest, we’re very easy to score against. It’s a rather large roll of the dice each week and I think we need a better balance so that we can take a punch from the opposition. Tighter defensive setups and a better mindset when it comes to running two ways. Also, fewer broken tackles.

Get those things right and I think we have the list to win a flag in the next 2 years. If we don’t, I expect to see some pretty significant changes around coaching and playing personnel.

 

[davemc_lions]

So you’re saying we would have beaten port?

if we played last night Port probably would of turned up
Maybe we got through and made it to GF
Melb would of smashed us for a third time in the year
Sorry being pessimistic. Like the Cats our slow slow game plan then bomb it into 50 does not work under pressure
Swans, Dogs twice, Melb Twice, Saints, Tigers and Hawks beat us when they put pressure on us.
Yes we lost to both grand finalists twice.
Which shows we still not up to it

 

[scoman]

So you’re saying we would have beaten port?

Sorry to butt in but if we won last week against the Dogs, we would have won against Port. No doubt in my mind.

It's amazing how close a thing it can be between glory and failure.

Last year Port could have easily beaten Richmond in the PF, was so close.

It's funny how we analyse all our faults and we and others make all these grand statements about our list, game plan etc, when we are often talking about a single kick or decision changing the entire perspective. Same goes for many football narratives.

Not trying to stifle discussion here, just uploading my philosophical ponderings.....

 

[jackess]

if we played last night Port probably would of turned up
Maybe we got through and made it to GF
Melb would of smashed us for a third time in the year
Sorry being pessimistic. Like the Cats our slow slow game plan then bomb it into 50 does not work under pressure
Swans, Dogs twice, Melb Twice, Saints, Tigers and Hawks beat us when they put pressure on us.
Yes we lost to both grand finalists twice.
Which shows we still not up to it

No teams gameplan stands up when they are being out pressured. Some handle it better but it’s not like you can go into games saying “we’ll be under pressure whenever we have the footy, do this and we’ll win”

Our gameplan is actually setup to handle high pressure games because it doesn’t rely on having clean possession but it requires us to bring the pressure and handle the pressure ok for 4 quarters, not 3 like in both finals or 2 or less like in our home and away losses.

 

[martinson]

We were robbed and unlucky against the Dogs but we were 3 goals up twice on our home deck and couldn't capitalise on it.

We got a putrid draw in the finals but did get a home final.

Although we can look back and see we just didn't quite get there for a number of reasons ,some beyond our control, we have played 5 of our 6 finals at the Gabba. And won one.

If things had gone our way just a little more last week , or if Melbourne hadn't beaten Geelong in that last game ,or whatever else, we'd be in a GF.

We're not good enough to win one if we don't get there , a lot of luck comes into it when there's just a kick in it , but clearly we need a bit more either how we play on the field or from who else we put on it to ensure that luck can't ruin our chances.

 

[BigCat2]

I think Hodge, Cameron, Neale, Adams, McCarthy, Lyons, Birchall, Daniher, and Cockatoo is very much destination club worthy. You only have to look back at the list of players we traded in from 2010-2017 to see just how stark that change has been. Also - draftees wanting to come here and stay here is another sign of that.

That's also not including players who may have expressed wish to come/asked their managers to enquire, but were told sorry we don't have room for you. I don't know of any specific names, but I imagine there would have been some in the background. I imagine some players during the Hawks' successful era may have been knocked back as well.

 

[martinson]

There's no doubt the way this finals series has unfolded hurts and last night is hard to stomach knowing what would've happened had we made it.

The players and staff must be feeling all of that.

We can't let it infect our mindset and just need to focus on how we can improve in the areas that prevented us getting there. The umpires and whatever luck the opposition has are out of our control

 

[martinson]

I'm not convinced if we had made it that Melbourne would have smashed us in the GF . With the week off and what we know it would've been a contest.

As it will be against the Dogs.

 

[lioninthesand]

Reading this thread I just dont get how/why we would casually discuss this year being 'the one that got away'.

This scenario has us going 3 and 1 to win a flag or 2 and 1 to make a Granny... we went 0-2?

We also have a 1-5 record recently in finals.

Who is this incredible Lions finals team we are discussing? who plays in it? who coaches it?

 

[jackess]

Reading this thread I just dont get how/why we would casually discuss this year being 'the one that got away'.

This scenario has us going 3 and 1 to win a flag or 2 and 1 to make a Granny... we went 0-2?

We also have a 1-5 record recently in finals.

Who is this incredible Lions finals team we are discussing? who plays in it? who coaches it?

Nobody is saying it was the one that got away more so that going out in straight sets looks worse than it actually was

And the finals records doesn't look so bad considering we've never played a final against a non-top 2 team

 

[M Malice]

Who is this incredible Lions finals team we are discussing? who plays in it? who coaches it?

The list we have now and the coach we have now is eminently capable of winning a flag, just need a little luck re timing of injuries.... IMO.

The only thing we are desperately short of is a capable mature backup ruck for Big O, heaven forbid if O went down.

Not many teams could cover 2 best 22 KPFs being out of a big final, you can cover 1 adequately, there are limits to how much good depth you can carry, no decent KPF is going to want to be at a club where he is 5th in line for a senior position.

 

[irel]

I believe we are a team that relies too much on emotion to raise our performance. Until we find that balance to perform at a benchmark standard regularly and not depend on external emotional fixers to motivate us we will regularly fall short of reaching the ultimate success. What the Dees and Bulldogs and the Tigers before have shown is how to win games relying on nothing more than the game plan and the players maintaining consistent form following such plan.

 

[martinson]

Nobody is saying it was the one that got away more so that going out in straight sets looks worse than it actually was

And the finals records doesn't look so bad considering we've never played a final against a non-top 2 team

I think luck has played a significant part but not enough of a part to have stopped us if we'd played a bit better at crucial stages.

Or draw was putrid this year, facing up to the Top 2 teams clearly.

It's all over now. All we can control is what's ahead of us ,and sometimes you can't control a lot of that.

 

[jackess]

I believe we are a team that relies too much on emotion to raise our performance. Until we find that balance to perform at a benchmark standard regularly and not depend on external emotional fixers to motivate us we will regularly fall short of reaching the ultimate success. What the Dees and Bulldogs and the Tigers before have shown is how to win games relying on nothing more than the game plan and the players maintaining consistent form following such plan.

Not sure I agree with this at all. We saw last night what happens when a team comes out fired up and one is going through the motion

 

[twhowler]

I know its easy for the mind to go there with the 'we should be in a GF', 'it hurts even more now' etc.. im seeing it everywhere from Lions fans. but I just can't personally. We are 1 and 5 in finals. We can't win them in the real world, so no point torturing ourselves, thinking about an alternate world where we are in a GF. History suggests we lose to Port given our big game record. We may well have got their and shat the bed or Port may have had a different mind set, its a totally different game. We arnt the Dogs, they are back to the wall specialists who are on a roll.

I get the sentiment but I can't connect the dots between.. straights sets and we should be in a granny.

What it does do, it reaffirms we did well with injured players againts 2 good teams. It reaffirms we are close. It reaffirms, once again, we are the 3rd or 4th best team in the comp.

Yes we are 1-5 but only because we lost on the weekend.
Dogs have been poor in finals since 2016 and only beat Essendon before facing us.
The lament from my point of view is thinking the momentum a win could have given us (and did give the dogs), and knowing Port are brittle and a GF was a genuine possibility. We have won 4 in a row vs Port and 3 of them easily. Been a while since we played them in Adelaide but they are far from invincible there.

 

[irel]

Not sure I agree with this at all. We saw last night what happens when a team comes out fired up and one is going through the motion

Dees and Bulldogs maintained a constant level throughout the year. Unlike us, did not have to rely much on emotional sweetener fix.

 

[BRAB]

Dees and Bulldogs maintained a constant level throughout the year. Unlike us, did not have to rely much on emotional sweetener fix.

Do you mean a constant level of emotion or a constant level of performance?

The former is up for debate I guess but the latter definitely isn't. Both the dogs and the demons had some pretty bad patches this year.

 

[twhowler]

Reading this thread I just dont get how/why we would casually discuss this year being 'the one that got away'.

This scenario has us going 3 and 1 to win a flag or 2 and 1 to make a Granny... we went 0-2?

We also have a 1-5 record recently in finals.

Who is this incredible Lions finals team we are discussing? who plays in it? who coaches it?

The discussion is obviously predicated on an ounce more luck v the dogs which takes us to 1-1. Going from there to 2-1 hardly the greatest leap to make.

 

[dlanod]

Dees and Bulldogs maintained a constant level throughout the year. Unlike us, did not have to rely much on emotional sweetener fix.

Revisionist history.

Melbourne had a spell where they went 2-1-3, failing to get over the line against three non-finals teams and you must have a really short memory to forgot the Dogs' 0-3 end to the season costing them a top 4 spot to us that included two complete collapses.

Dees and Bulldogs have been very good across the year, but it was definitely not constant compared to some other teams in previous years.

 

[irel]

Revisionist history.

Melbourne had a spell where they went 2-1-3, failing to get over the line against three non-finals teams and you must have a really short memory to forgot the Dogs' 0-3 end to the season costing them a top 4 spot to us that included two complete collapses.

Dees and Bulldogs have been very good across the year, but it was definitely not constant compared to some other teams in previous years.

Mew, a form slump rather than an emotional roller coaster type season.

 

[martinson]

Revisionist history.

Melbourne had a spell where they went 2-1-3, failing to get over the line against three non-finals teams and you must have a really short memory to forgot the Dogs' 0-3 end to the season costing them a top 4 spot to us that included two complete collapses.

Dees and Bulldogs have been very good across the year, but it was definitely not constant compared to some other teams in previous years.

A bit of credit to Goodwin.

He's got them peaking at the right time and took the foot off the pedal in matches they didn't need to win. Circumstance or by design ? I think more by design.

The issue we've had is that we've peaked at the wrong times. Sometimes injuries impact that. But you don't need to win all or even the high majority of your matches to win a premiership. You have to get in a position to win it for sure , but the mental mindset and physical condition you're in come finals is critical.

 

[martinson]

The worst thing that happened to us was thinking we had to beat WC by whatever margin. It sucked out a lot of physical and emotional energy .

We couldn't crank it up again in the first week of finals.

Sports psychologists and coaches in all sports try to get their athletes peaking on a certain day. AFL is a peculiar case but I think the mental preparation and physical well being for the big matches is underestimated. You can't attain your highest level of performance for 25 weeks. Or even 10. If you're good enough to get there you want to be doing it in the 2 or 3 matches that count.

 

[jackess]

Dees and Bulldogs maintained a constant level throughout the year. Unlike us, did not have to rely much on emotional sweetener fix.

No they didn’t. Demons lost to Collingwood and Adelaide. Bulldogs went from first to fifth at the end of the year.

Maybe their midfield can fall back on being more talented but they still need to come our fired up. Melbourne also has a poor forward line so need the midfield to do more of the heavy lifting.

 

[M Malice]

Just whiling away the hours today contemplating all things Lions... so expanding further on this tit bit from an earlier post of mine.

Onward and upward towards 2022 ............ and beyond, with some clever trading and nailing a few draft selections we should be highly competitive for the rest of this decade, even post Richy, Zorks --- Lyons and Neale.

Our side post the Fantastic 4 and Daniher/McCarthy/Adams(all 3 28 before next season starts) from current players, their age at start of 2025 in brackets >

Darcy Gardiner(29), Jack Payne(25), Keidean Coleman(24).
Noah Answerth(26), Harris Andrews(28), Jaxon Prior(23).

Oscar McInerney(30), Hugh McCluggage(26), Zac Bailey(25).
Jarrod Berry(26), Cameron Rayner(25), Brandon Starcevich(25).

Charlie Cameron(30), Eric Hipwood(27), Callum Ah Chee(27).
Nakia Cockatoo(28), Dan McStay(29), Tom Fullarton(25).


Deven Robertson(23), Harry Sharp(22), James Madden(25), Tom Berry(24).

+ Almost certain to add projected elite talent Will Ashcroft next year and Jaspa Fletcher.

Not a bad position to be in long term, our midfield looks particularly well set up for an extended period of time.