Unsolved The Family Murders

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FR0GGY said:
Interesting as to why anyone (or family) would bother saying yes then.
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Lewis Turtur did LOL.

At the end of the day a Court makes the decision, based on submissions made. It’s a complex scenario but if the DPP objects then it is a hard(er) task. If they don’t object then in a way they are conceding that justice is never likely to be administered…..
 
squawk said:
Lewis Turtur did LOL.

At the end of the day a Court makes the decision, based on submissions made. It’s a complex scenario but if the DPP objects then it is a hard(er) task. If they don’t object then in a way they are conceding that justice is never likely to be administered…..
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Yeah that’s what got me thinking and then that 4 out of the 5 were dead, so I assumed death meant you didn’t need permission to lift it.
So the other 7 are obviously more high profile and objected?
 

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FR0GGY said:
Yeah that’s what got me thinking and then that 4 out of the 5 were dead, so I assumed death meant you didn’t need permission to lift it.
So the other 7 are obviously more high profile and objected?
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I’m just going off the Frozen Lies podcast here - from what I remember it was like this:
Debi said there were about 30 suppression’s all up. (I think there’s more, as discussed below).

Debi Marshall then came up with a list of 12 she wanted to ask to be lifted by the Courts.
The DPP explained it would take a lot of effort to track them all down, or their families - ie the twelve Debi wanted.
Debi then narrowed her list of 12, down to a list of 5. Of that 5, 4 were dead and one was (is) alive.

Lewis Turtur (alive) agreed to have his lifted.
The other four (dead) were lifted - but I don’t know whether families agreed or whether families couldn’t be traced.
They were Brian Gant, Pru Firman, Noel Brook and Martin Smith ( a victim of something along the way).

Brook was adopted and an only child. So that may be a no brainer.
Firman still has family alive and well. Nonetheless it was lifted.
Gant - I don’t know about his family circumstances. Lifted.
Smith - I haven’t a clue why Debi wanted a victim’s name lifted.
Debi’s application was only for five. However, I believe another person did object (the businessman), even though he wasn’t named in the application!

Like you, I suspect the other 7 on Debi’s list are most likely thought of (by her) as principal co-conspirators. My guess is that these 7 include the doctor, the businessman and his boyfriend, the key witness Mr B (who was given immunity with the exception of immunity from murder), SN, MC and then take your pick as to who the other one is (Number 7 on Debi’s list). It could be any of

the hairdresser (DSD) - dead
the magistrate (RB) - dead
the promoter (DS)
Clocker (CW)
the nurse (JBL)
A number of queens - definitely PJ, and KW. Possibly also Marguerita, SM, BV, CB, GZ, JW, KB.
someone I will call “the link man” - DK
Someone known as “the young lawyer” - but is not so young nowadays.
Another two doctors and someone I will call “the medico“. (One doc is dead).
Someone I will call “the butcher“, GM
Someone I will call “the MC”, MP
Someone I will call “the mechanic”, RC
Someone I will call “the POI” or “person of interest”, BM
Someone I will call “the teacher”, TP


As best I know, other than the top two of this last list, the mechanic and one doctor, the rest are all still alive. But I should say that I don’t actually know who is actually definitely on the suppression list, nor do I know the actual names of PJ or Marguerita. So some are definitely suppressed, others I am just speculating are suppressed.

So out of the Debi Marshall list of 30, (assuming all of the above have suppression orders), there are more than 30 people in total shown above.

You can then add witnesses and victims to the list as well so I guess there are a lot more than 30 given about 12 victims turned up to testify against Von Einem, and however many witnesses on top of that - at least another 25 I’d say….

Debi had one victim’s name lifted from suppression and of course she may want others in that category lifted too (not sure why but prob for storytelling purposes).

Wow, that post took some thinking through….
 
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A name not suppressed is Jim Priestly. I don’t know how he fits in but Von Einem knew him and mentioned his name during police questioning. Does anyone know of this person?

Another name was a friend of his “Peter T”. Anyone familiar with that person at all?
 
squawk said:
A name not suppressed is Jim Priestly. I don’t know how he fits in but Von Einem knew him and mentioned his name during police questioning. Does anyone know of this person?

Another name was a friend of his “Peter T”. Anyone familiar with that person at all?
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Can you share a link to the police questioning. First time that this name has come up that I am aware of. How old would Jim be now would you think? I do know of a man with this name. What more can you share please Squawk
 
Raisedeyebrow said:
Can you share a link to the police questioning. First time that this name has come up that I am aware of. How old would Jim be now would you think? I do know of a man with this name. What more can you share please Squawk
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I came across it in the ebook by Roles and McInerney. It is talking about BVE saying he dropped off RK outside the RAH and gave him $20 to get a cab home. BVE said he did the same for “Jim Priestly”. $20 in 1983 is apparently the equivalent of about $100 in 2020. 3EDAE7ED-A62B-4F4C-8F0D-13E50F7C0360.jpeg
 

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squawk said:
I’m just going off the Frozen Lies podcast here - from what I remember it was like this:
Debi said there were about 30 suppression’s all up. (I think there’s more, as discussed below).

Debi Marshall then came up with a list of 12 she wanted to ask to be lifted by the Courts.
The DPP explained it would take a lot of effort to track them all down, or their families - ie the twelve Debi wanted.
Debi then narrowed her list of 12, down to a list of 5. Of that 5, 4 were dead and one was (is) alive.

Lewis Turtur (alive) agreed to have his lifted.
The other four (dead) were lifted - but I don’t know whether families agreed or whether families couldn’t be traced.
They were Brian Gant, Pru Firman, Noel Brook and Martin Smith ( a victim of something along the way).

Brook was adopted and an only child. So that may be a no brainer.
Firman still has family alive and well. Nonetheless it was lifted.
Gant - I don’t know about his family circumstances. Lifted.
Smith - I haven’t a clue why Debi wanted a victim’s name lifted.
Debi’s application was only for five. However, I believe another person did object (the businessman), even though he wasn’t named in the application!

Like you, I suspect the other 7 on Debi’s list are most likely thought of (by her) as principal co-conspirators. My guess is that these 7 include the doctor, the businessman and his boyfriend, the key witness Mr B (who was given immunity with the exception of immunity from murder), SN, MC and then take your pick as to who the other one is (Number 7 on Debi’s list). It could be any of

the hairdresser (DSD) - dead
the magistrate (RB) - dead
the promoter (DS)
Clocker (CW)
the nurse (JBL)
A number of queens - definitely PJ, and KW. Possibly also Marguerita, SM, BV, CB, GZ, JW, KB.
someone I will call “the link man” - DK
Someone known as “the young lawyer” - but is not so young nowadays.
Another two doctors and someone I will call “the medico“. (One doc is dead).
Someone I will call “the butcher“, GM
Someone I will call “the MC”, MP
Someone I will call “the mechanic”, RC
Someone I will call “the POI” or “person of interest”, BM
Someone I will call “the teacher”, TP


As best I know, other than the top two of this last list, the mechanic and one doctor, the rest are all still alive. But I should say that I don’t actually know who is actually definitely on the suppression list, nor do I know the actual names of PJ or Marguerita. So some are definitely suppressed, others I am just speculating are suppressed.

So out of the Debi Marshall list of 30, (assuming all of the above have suppression orders), there are more than 30 people in total shown above.

You can then add witnesses and victims to the list as well so I guess there are a lot more than 30 given about 12 victims turned up to testify against Von Einem, and however many witnesses on top of that - at least another 25 I’d say….

Debi had one victim’s name lifted from suppression and of course she may want others in that category lifted too (not sure why but prob for storytelling purposes).

Wow, that post took some thinking through….
Click to expand...

That's a very good summary. As you quote the initials of the nurse as JBL, I suppose you know her full name? I only know her as "Jacquie", but haven't come across her full name yet...
What urge must a woman have to participate in all this? I mean, sexual desire can be ruled out obviously. The only thing I can think of is heavy drug addiction...
 
squawk said:
I came across it in the ebook by Roles and McInerney. It is talking about BVE saying he dropped off RK outside the RAH and gave him $20 to get a cab home. BVE said he did the same for “Jim Priestly”. $20 in 1983 is apparently the equivalent of about $100 in 2020.View attachment 1241401
Click to expand...

Maybe he made the name up...or at least the money story...as I recall he sometimes did that (e.g. "Mostyn"?)
 
ElizabethG said:
That's a very good summary. As you quote the initials of the nurse as JBL, I suppose you know her full name? I only know her as "Jacquie", but haven't come across her full name yet...
What urge must a woman have to participate in all this? I mean, sexual desire can be ruled out obviously. The only thing I can think of is heavy drug addiction...
Click to expand...
All names of the above are known except for PJ and Marguerita. It requires extensive and comprehensive research - the names won’t just be happened upon. (Nor have any names been identified from access to court documents). The known names are all genuine, verified people.

There is also someone I will call “the chemist” - CR. (Dead).
And someone I will call “the muscle” - possibly PK.
A number of pedophile rings also had members that overlapped (ie were associates of) the family members.
It all seemingly started with an underground pr0n network. That likely included (over time) DS, RC, RS, GG, RM, CR and possibly JB.
There were some genuine links to “people in high places” but it is unlikely that it was anything more than members associating socially with those people.
There was probably also an illicit drug network that overlapped - ie not pharma but actual drugs. And obviously the pharma suppliers too.
There are a lot of moving parts - it’s a bit like a bicycle in many ways with wheels, pedals, handlebars, a seat, a bell, lights etc!

Why was JBL involved? Drugs is very likely. But in the network, everyone wanted something and everyone could get what they wanted as long as they worked together. It was a bit like a cartel - kingpins and bottom feeders and everyone in between, all relying on one another.
 
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ElizabethG said:
Maybe he made the name up...or at least the money story...as I recall he sometimes did that (e.g. "Mostyn"?)
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That is certainly a possibility. Short of asking him and getting a truthful answer, the only alternative is to look into it further! The ebook doesn’t say “police looked in to this and it went nowhere so it was dismissed as a fabrication”. Rather, the authors chose for some reason to put that paragraph in and chose to stay silent in relation to the context for it being included in the book. That implies there is more to it. In the case of “Mostyn”, the ebook made it very clear that he was deemed by police to be fictitious. This wasn’t so when it came to mentioning Jim Priestly.
 
squawk said:
All names of the above are known except for PJ and Marguerita. It requires extensive and comprehensive research - the names won’t just be happened upon. (Nor have any names been identified from access to court documents). The known names are all genuine, verified people.

There is also someone I will call “the chemist” - CR. (Dead).
And someone I will call “the muscle” - possibly PK.
A number of pedophile rings also had members that overlapped (ie were associates of) the family members.
It all seemingly started with an underground pr0n network. That likely included (over time) DS, RC, RS, GG, RM, CR and possibly JB.
There were some genuine links to “people in high places” but it is unlikely that it was anything more than members associating socially with those people.
There was probably also an illicit drug network that overlapped - ie not pharma but actual drugs. And obviously the pharma suppliers too.
There are a lot of moving parts - it’s a bit like a bicycle in many ways with wheels, pedals, handlebars, a seat, a bell, lights etc!

Why was JBL involved? Drugs is very likely. But in the network, everyone wanted something and everyone could get what they wanted as long as they worked together. It was a bit like a cartel - kingpins and bottom feeders and everyone in between, all relying on one another.
Click to expand...

That's right, it really takes a lot of effort...I think I know most of the initials you are mentioning... I'm in the dark about others, but determined to find out. It's so frustrating that even with the names, locations, etc. that are known, you can't do anything about it...

Like you said, there are different overlapping circles and my mind map at home keeps growing and growing...yet it's surprising that with all these people involved only a small minority of them talked (a bit). One would assume that with dozens of people involved someone would spill their guts sooner or later - especially the ones who were related to the murders. I wonder how many of the people you mentioned actually participated in the ordeal of the victims or at least knew were they were held or other details regarding their abductions.

There was speculation about 5 or 6 people ("the inner circle"), but I am sure many more knew at least something or heard von Einem say something as I think he was feeling rather safe in the years before 1983...
 
ElizabethG said:
Yes, I am sure there is more to so many things...I wish access to the court documents was easier...I was in contact with the SA State Archives a few weeks ago and tried to obtain the files of 1984, but unfortunately I experienced the same problems Debi stated in her book. It's kind of suspicious that they haven't been transferred to a digital database yet..
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I don’t have the Banquet book - it got recalled before I could get a copy!
I haven’t tried to access any of the Court documents either. I think you can apply to the registry to do so though. I’m not sure what State Archives have that the Courts don’t have, or vice versa.
Have you found anything out in your own research ElizabethG? What research have you been doing and what have you been focusing on?
 

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squawk said:
Does anyone remember a Lawrence Tan being acquainted with Vivian Vidulich?
(She was living with him in Wollongong in around 1987.)
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This is interesting on a personal level... such a small world.

I've followed this thread and case for years and always fascinated with the case. Having moved to, and lived in Adelaide around 82-84 in my early-mid teens, I remember the rumours, news stories and fear at the time. I happened to live in Brighton during that period and coincidently was a member of the Brighton SLSC. It wasn't until the last decade that I learned of Liddy and his story. I was at the club during those days when he was preying on nippers. I was extremely lucky to be just a touch older and out of the nipper category in those days. Anyway, I digress.

Back to your initial question... I was born in and grew up in Wollongong. I also happened to have gone to W'Gong Uni and studied art during the late 80s and Tan was indeed one of my lecturers. TBH, I have a vague recollection of a female connection with Tan in those days, but really cannot confirm who it was. I recall Tan tending to keep that aspect of his life private. I do remember he drove an Audi and I also recall he was a lecturer I admired and quite liked personally. He is still around, though not in the Gong anymore. And BTW, his first name is spelt differently.

I'm not up to speed with this recent interest in "Vivian Vidulich" having been away from this thread for quite a few months... what is the interest and where does it come from? Is this to do with the pulled publication by Marshall?
 
HK_Hawk said:
This is interesting on a personal level... such a small world.

I've followed this thread and case for years and always fascinated with the case. Having moved to, and lived in Adelaide around 82-84 in my early-mid teens, I remember the rumours, news stories and fear at the time. I happened to live in Brighton during that period and coincidently was a member of the Brighton SLSC. It wasn't until the last decade that I learned of Liddy and his story. I was at the club during those days when he was preying on nippers. I was extremely lucky to be just a touch older and out of the nipper category in those days. Anyway, I digress.

Back to your initial question... I was born in and grew up in Wollongong. I also happened to have gone to W'Gong Uni and studied art during the late 80s and Tan was indeed one of my lecturers. TBH, I have a vague recollection of a female connection with Tan in those days, but really cannot confirm who it was. I recall Tan tending to keep that aspect of his life private. I do remember he drove an Audi and I also recall he was a lecturer I admired and quite liked personally. He is still around, though not in the Gong anymore. And BTW, his first name is spelt differently.

I'm not up to speed with this recent interest in "Vivian Vidulich" having been away from this thread for quite a few months... what is the interest and where does it come from? Is this to do with the pulled publication by Marshall?
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Would it be spelt Laurens Tan?

*nobody is suggesting Tan is in any way associated with this thread but as a peripheral interest
 
squawk said:
Pine Needles and Neil Muir

The e book mentioned that Pine needles were found with the remains of Neil Muir's body.

It speculates that the pine needles could have come from a pine tree located in the grounds of the Calvary Hospital in North Adelaide.
The e book also talks about "Colin" being exploited on an autopsy table in a major hospital by a medico with after hours access. This would have to be the RAH. I'm not aware of any pine trees there - plus the mortuary was in the basement there.
Further, it mentions the old quarantine station at Torrens Island. Again, I'm not sure if there were pine trees there or not.
Posters on here have also discussed a possible pine tree in or near to Prince St, Alberton. However, it doesn't seem that the TG house there was in use until a year or two after the death of NM.
Was there a suggestion that there was a pine tree near/at Mr R's house? If so, I don't think the needles came from there either. You'll see why shortly.
I've also wondered if facilities could have been used at the Adelaide University School of Medicine? Again, I'm not about any pine trees nearby there either.


So what other options are there? A veterinary clinic? The Adelaide Zoo - animal treatment facilities? A mortuary at a funeral director's home? Maybe others as well....

Recent research has uncovered the existence of the 'old' City Morgue.
It was at the West Tce cemetery. Forensic autopsies were carried out there until December 1978, when its function was transferred to the new Forensic Science Centre in Divett Place. The new facility included a modern mortuary on the ground floor.

A mere six months after the new building was opened in Divett Place, AB and NM are dead. NM is dissected.
The old city morgue was located just off West Tce, not far south of the buildings at the main entrance. The morgue had its own entrance directly off West Tce.

In the vicinity of the old City Morgue, I found a map showing there are numerous "Aleppo Pine Trees" within the grounds of the cemetery. They are marked as number 11 species on the attached image.

So - what if someone still had access to the 'old' City Morgue, six months after it had closed? Organs could either be buried/dispersed in the cemetery itself, or tissue/organs could have alternatively been disposed of in a hospital or another medical facility? he could have them disposed at his new facility in Divett Place? It would be much easier to carry in a plastic bag with body parts than to bring in a whole body.

It would be easier to dismember a whole body in a place like the old city morgue, than try and get a whole body in to a hospital (or a university or similar) place and then spend hours dismembering it there.

Maybe, NM was taken to the old city morgue (its no more than 10 minutes at most from Millhouse's place in North Adelaide; and 5 minutes from Hindley St or Carrington St, and all of 2 minutes from Chatham St - the first TG house). Then "they" did the dissection. Some of the body was then contaminated by Pine needles at the cemetery - most likely by transfer from the vehicle(s) or a person(s) there as well. Who knows - maybe ML and PS were also cut/dismembered there too?

Images are attached for reference. The morgue and aerial pica are taken around 1975/76; the maps are from a report done in 1988.
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I’ve been looking into these pine needles again that the Dissected book says were found with Neil Muir’s remains. I have visited a few locations to have a “look see” for myself. To put what I am about to offer into context, I recommend you go back to page 120 for the original post to see the accompanying images, which showed pictures of the old mortuary at West Terrace Cemetery and a historic map showing the location of pine trees which I uncovered in the State Library. That post is quoted above but the images are on the original post.

Firstly, it is said that Muir was at the residence of Dr Peter Millhouse. I have established that this was at 98 Stanley Street, North Adelaide. Coincidentally, the cottage next door at 98a has just been sold – here’s a link to some photos. https://foxrealestate.com.au/16-98a-stanley-street-north-adelaide-sa-5887056/

In the backyard there is a Plane Tree. Not a pine tree. So it is highly unlikely any pine needles came from this location originally, much less found there way into the bags carrying Muir’s remains. The Dissected book didn’t actually suggest this – I’m just making this point for the sake of completeness.

What the Dissected book did suggest was two locations where the needles could have come from. One was at the Torrens Island Quarantine Station. The other was at Calvary Hospital in North Adelaide.

I haven’t been to inspect Torrens Island – it isn’t readily accessible in any case. I looked for some information online and found a vague reference to Southern Cypress Pine Callitris gracilis. I couldn’t confirm it but if so, it appears to more akin to a standard confider looking tree albeit it grows bigger.

Therefore, the “needles” do not actually look like needles.
CDC85DD9-EA6B-422B-93B4-DAB345BD6F4A.jpeg

6D6304ED-146D-4A87-867E-6E91F0D27B8D.jpeg


This location was suggested as it is opposite Mutton Cove where Muir’s remains were found. I think that it is highly unlikely that the old Quarantine Station was the location where he was mutilated. It is a long way from the CBD and North Adelaide; it would have been difficult to access (especially overnight); and the two bags were found together on across the Port River (ie didn’t separate and were heavy in any case and unlikely to float across the river). That’s all in addition to the fact that the Quarantine Station was still open at the time of Muir’s death - On 9 December 1979, a global commission certified that smallpox had been eradicated, and this certification was officially accepted by the 33rd World Health Assembly in 1980. Following the declaration by the World Health Organisation of the eradication of smallpox in 1979, Torrens Island closed as a human quarantine station.

I’m ruling this location out, personally.
 
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