Universal Love The Jason Taylor Appreciation Thread

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Probably more Rembrandt than Picasso. Rembrandt's work is pretty standard so picking players that have good fundermentals. Good kicking, tackling, work ethic ect. As an artist it's a safe bet. Guys like anb, Spargo, Rivers and petty.

Picasso is an abstract artist more your x factor types they can do some extraordinary things and are more memorable but as an artist it's a risk. Guys like Jackson and Pickett maybe Fritsch.
 

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Chicken and the Egg.

Can you draft gun players if you have bad coaching and vice versa?

I think a premiership sides drafting looks amazing and a mid tables looks crap. But is that because great coaching gets everyone or did they draft great players that any coach could use.
 
2013 Draft
#9 Salem - HIT
Only Sheed #11, Cripps #13, M Crouch #23 & Z Merrett #26 recruited between him and our next pick who are arguably better players. Presently, I’d only prefer Zerrett over him.

#40 Kennedy-Harris - MISS
Barrass, Aliir, Sicily & Fantasia were all available between him and the next pick. Yet it’s hard to strafe a bloke for getting pick 40 wrong.

#57 Hunt - HIT
Karl Amon at #68 would’ve been nice but essentially sweet fa except for a bunch of rookie elevations after this.

2014 Rookie Draft
Got Harmes and Nev

2014 National draft
#2 & #3 Petracca and Brayshaw - HITS
Only DeGoey #5, Lever #13, Touk Miller #29 and Maynard #31 were better players than Brayshaw picked up before our next live pick.

#40 Neal-Bullen - HIT & 42 Stretch (FS) - MISS
Only Bailey Dale & Caleb Daniel would be arguably better than Nibbler up to our next live pick but as stated picks in the 40s are a bit of a crapshoot.

#53 O McDonald - MISS
Not a howler by any stretch but there were still some good players available with Ed Langdon, Dougal Howard and Dan Butler called out subsequently.

2015 Rookie Draft
Got Vanders with our only rookie pick. Kane Lambert and Jayden Short were selected later but not bad considering the rookie draft is a fair old lottery.
 
Topkent said:
Chicken and the Egg.

Can you draft gun players if you have bad coaching and vice versa?

I think a premiership sides drafting looks amazing and a mid tables looks crap. But is that because great coaching gets everyone or did they draft great players that any coach could use.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%.

With a few exceptions, Melbourne drafted consensus top picks through the 2000s and early 2010s. Yet generally they didn’t come on. This is either really bad luck, all the experts were wrong, or the development/coaching/culture was poor.

I suspect it was mostly the latter, with a sprinkling of the former.

When Melbourne got a bit clever deafting someone a bit earlier than consensus with a Blease, or a Strauss, it didn’t come off. Then there were a couple of howlers that even with foresight lacked something for AFL level like Lucas Cook and his lack of aggression, or Tapscott who physically bullied skinny teens but didn’t have much beyond that.

Petracca was a no brainer pick that I could’ve made, but it’s possible he could’ve been another Col Sylvia (also a no brainer pick) without the right conditions once at the club.

Where I think Taylor and Lamb/Mahoney have excelled is working together to identify talent in that pick 10-40 range, and manoeuvring draft and trade capital to get in the right spots to get a shot at that talent at a fair value.

In short, while Taylor and team have been brilliant, I think it’s a massive eco system and if any part of it is badly broken things fall apart.

Game plan informs talent requirements, talent identification isolates what juniors and already listed AFL players have the required talents, trading positions you to get the talents in at fair price, contract management allows you to retain the talent you want to retain, development and coaching hones the talent so the talent can execute the game plan, fitness and injury management increases your ability to have the talent on the field as often as possible.

For example, Collingwood clearly screwed up the contract management component. They could nail the rest, but they are behind the 8 ball because that one part is badly broken.

You could argue there’s something wrong with Port’s game plan given how often they’ve failed against quality opposition. They could be nailing everything else, but if the game plan doesn’t stand up it won’t matter.

I think Melbourne have been good to excellent in every part of the cycle and that’s what underpinned the premiership.
 
Lampers said:
I agree 100%.

With a few exceptions, Melbourne drafted consensus top picks through the 2000s and early 2010s. Yet generally they didn’t come on. This is either really bad luck, all the experts were wrong, or the development/coaching/culture was poor.

I suspect it was mostly the latter, with a sprinkling of the former.

When Melbourne got a bit clever deafting someone a bit earlier than consensus with a Blease, or a Strauss, it didn’t come off. Then there were a couple of howlers that even with foresight lacked something for AFL level like Lucas Cook and his lack of aggression, or Tapscott who physically bullied skinny teens but didn’t have much beyond that.

Petracca was a no brainer pick that I could’ve made, but it’s possible he could’ve been another Col Sylvia (also a no brainer pick) without the right conditions once at the club.

Where I think Taylor and Lamb/Mahoney have excelled is working together to identify talent in that pick 10-40 range, and manoeuvring draft and trade capital to get in the right spots to get a shot at that talent at a fair value.

In short, while Taylor and team have been brilliant, I think it’s a massive eco system and if any part of it is badly broken things fall apart.

Game plan informs talent requirements, talent identification isolates what juniors and already listed AFL players have the required talents, trading positions you to get the talents in at fair price, contract management allows you to retain the talent you want to retain, development and coaching hones the talent so the talent can execute the game plan, fitness and injury management increases your ability to have the talent on the field as often as possible.

For example, Collingwood clearly screwed up the contract management component. They could nail the rest, but they are behind the 8 ball because that one part is badly broken.

You could argue there’s something wrong with Port’s game plan given how often they’ve failed against quality opposition. They could be nailing everything else, but if the game plan doesn’t stand up it won’t matter.

I think Melbourne have been good to excellent in every part of the cycle and that’s what underpinned the premiership.
Click to expand...

Maybe explain that to old schmutty boy 😅
 
Lampers said:
I agree 100%.

With a few exceptions, Melbourne drafted consensus top picks through the 2000s and early 2010s. Yet generally they didn’t come on. This is either really bad luck, all the experts were wrong, or the development/coaching/culture was poor.

I suspect it was mostly the latter, with a sprinkling of the former.

When Melbourne got a bit clever deafting someone a bit earlier than consensus with a Blease, or a Strauss, it didn’t come off. Then there were a couple of howlers that even with foresight lacked something for AFL level like Lucas Cook and his lack of aggression, or Tapscott who physically bullied skinny teens but didn’t have much beyond that.

Petracca was a no brainer pick that I could’ve made, but it’s possible he could’ve been another Col Sylvia (also a no brainer pick) without the right conditions once at the club.

Where I think Taylor and Lamb/Mahoney have excelled is working together to identify talent in that pick 10-40 range, and manoeuvring draft and trade capital to get in the right spots to get a shot at that talent at a fair value.

In short, while Taylor and team have been brilliant, I think it’s a massive eco system and if any part of it is badly broken things fall apart.

Game plan informs talent requirements, talent identification isolates what juniors and already listed AFL players have the required talents, trading positions you to get the talents in at fair price, contract management allows you to retain the talent you want to retain, development and coaching hones the talent so the talent can execute the game plan, fitness and injury management increases your ability to have the talent on the field as often as possible.

For example, Collingwood clearly screwed up the contract management component. They could nail the rest, but they are behind the 8 ball because that one part is badly broken.

You could argue there’s something wrong with Port’s game plan given how often they’ve failed against quality opposition. They could be nailing everything else, but if the game plan doesn’t stand up it won’t matter.

I think Melbourne have been good to excellent in every part of the cycle and that’s what underpinned the premiership.
Click to expand...
Yeah I agree it takes a lot of people doing things at an extremely high level to achieve the ultimate glory. Of course Jackson, Roos, Goodwin, Williams, Yze and a whole host of others deserve tons of praise. But I was never suggesting Taylor deserves all the kudos, I was just pointing out this guy deserves a ton of credit for exactly how good he’s been in the recruiting role. He’s next level.

We got Jackson, Pickett and Rivers from the draft 2 years ago and Bowey in the last draft, it’s unheard of for 4 players to be best 22 in a premiership that quickly, it’s sheer brilliance as far as I can tell and not surprising the bulk of our flag 22 was drafted by Taylor.
 
I don’t think anyone is saying JT is the be all and end all, but he certainly has an incredible hit record with later picks which I haven’t seen even from some other equally or more successful teams of the last decade or two.
 

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Gysberts2Bate said:
I don’t think anyone is saying JT is the be all and end all, but he certainly has an incredible hit record with later picks which I haven’t seen even from some other equally or more successful teams of the last decade or two.
Click to expand...
El Gringo said:
We got Jackson, Pickett and Rivers from the draft 2 years ago and Bowey in the last draft, it’s unheard of for 4 players to be best 22 in a premiership that quickly, it’s sheer brilliance as far as I can tell and not surprising the bulk of our flag 22 was drafted by Taylor.
Click to expand...

Lmao it took literally 2 mins of research to see that the Tigers got

McIntosh, Short, Butler, Castanga, Lambert, Broad Bolton, Graham in 3 years without a single pick under 29 all premiership players at a young age except McIntosh.

Then came Balta, Baker and Ross after pick 25.
 
Topkent said:
Lmao it took literally 2 mins of research to see that the Tigers got

McIntosh, Short, Butler, Castanga, Lambert, Broad Bolton, Graham in 3 years without a single pick under 29 all premiership players at a young age except McIntosh.

Then came Balta, Baker and Ross after pick 25.
Click to expand...
What’s your point?
 
Topkent said:
That it's neither 'incredible' nor 'unheard of'

However it allows to win for 3 or 4 I won't complain
Click to expand...
I don’t think i said it was unheard of. It’s certainly incredible, he has a great record. Richmond drafting well doesn’t make JT’s record less impressive
 
Topkent said:
Qouted 2 posts big fella.
Click to expand...
It’s still an absurd thing to have a contrarian take on, even for you.

and you didn’t disprove the second post you quoted and the claim it made as being ‘unheard of’. Only two of those players were taken in the two drafts before the 2017 flag. Only took me one minute of research to work that out as well
 
Gysberts2Bate said:
It’s still an absurd thing to have a contrarian take on, even for you.

and you didn’t disprove the second post you quoted and the claim it made as being ‘unheard of’. Only two of those players were taken in the two drafts before the 2017 flag. Only took me one minute of research to work that out as well
Click to expand...
No Broad Bolton and Graham were taken and if you take it back to 3 years it's another 4 of them.
So 7 in 3 years.

Again not everything we've done is the greatest of all time and unheard of.
It's not contrarian mate it's just pumping the breaks on the ' we are the greatest at everything ever' that people made fun of the Tigers for.
 
Topkent said:
No Broad Bolton and Graham were taken and if you take it back to 3 years it's another 4 of them.
So 7 in 3 years.

Again not everything we've done is the greatest of all time and unheard of.
It's not contrarian mate it's just pumping the breaks on the ' we are the greatest at everything ever' that people made fun of the Tigers for.
Click to expand...
Bolton didn’t play in the 2017 GF. So that’s two in Broad and Graham from 2015 and 2016. Also, McIntosh was drafted in 2012, so it’s six in three years, not seven in three years. Eight in five years between 2012-2016 if you add in Vlastuin. Lambert was 23 when drafted, and 25 when they won the flag. Not that it matters but you also named Jack Ross who hasn’t won a flag.

So, again, nothing is disproven here. Four premiership players taken by us from the two drafts prior to the relevant flag could very well be unheard of then, not to mention nine in four (2017-2020). Eight if we exclude JJ because of medi-sub inflation. Fritsch is 24 now and drafted pretty much at 21, so basically mature age like Lambert

Regardless, I don’t really care about that, they’re meaningless margins to compare and get excited about. This seems to me like a fairly harmless ‘JT is great at drafting thread’ to me, it’s impressive for the club to go from being dogshit at it to relatively flawless fairly quickly regardless of how much the development processes have improved. His performance is undoubtedly one of the cornerstones of the club turning things around, and no matter which way you swing it it’s certainly uncommon enough, even if it isn’t the greatest ever. I just don’t see how it’s not incredibly impressive to improve the list as much as quickly as he has played a part in since 2017 on top of some relatively consensus hits from 2013-2015, even if there are multiple other factors at play.

But anyway, the greater point is that the job isn’t done and one flag and a very short turnaround is only one form of success, to win four largely off the work of one recruiter would be truly extraordinary.
 
I also think that just saying ‘but Richmond’ ignores the fact that no other side has pulled off the wins at the draft we have since JT. St Kilda, Carlton and GC all show that it is no guarantee, and to hit overwhelmingly as we have is incredibly rare. It relies on development too, yes, but it’s still worth appreciating.
 
If Fraser Rosman turns out to be a player that’ll really top it off for JT. Thé other thing I appreciate about his work is that the players he seems to be into that we hear about as targets pre-draft who we don’t get in the draft also usually turn out to be pretty handy, like Dunstan, Lever, Langdon, Butters, Georgiades, Robertson and Holmes. Can’t think of too many flops. Nathan Freeman and his cooked hamstrings would be one.
 
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