Opinion Leigh Matthews and that season he didn't win the Brownlow . . .

Jul 13, 2015
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Cannot comment on seasons before I started watching but there no season in the time I watched from 1978 onwards where Lethal Leigh should have won a Brownlow.
Lockett is an interesting one given it so hard for key forwards to win one now. But Lockett was not an outright thug like Matthews. So it not surprising he could win one as there a lot of times Lockett did nothing wrong to be seen as unfair. Generally a guy like Lockett and Ablett would give warnings what was to come for most of their victims. Somebody going into the leading space would get a hint from them, you running in danger territory if keep it up...ha ha..

16 reports for 23 weeks worth of suspensions. Lockett wasnt a thug?
 
Aug 27, 2014
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16 reports for 23 weeks worth of suspensions. Lockett wasnt a thug?
No, I still consider him a bit of a thug but a discerning thug... ha ha.
Lethal Leigh was outright thug :)
If Lockett fixed someone up, he had a reason. Even if weird, like he in my leading lane and gave warnings, go there again and I will clean you up.
Lethal just did it for no discerning reason and no warnings. Just bang for the hell of it.
 

Tim Evans Beard

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The times also called for if you got knocked down, you got straight up and try to square the ledger later. you weren’t there trying to dive or plead for a free.

Took about 1 second to find ...

 

Masotiger

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I don't think Leigh Matthews ever gave a toss about the Brownlow.

I recall buying the "Inside Football" magazine/newspaper back in 1975. Either post season or pre-finals, I don't recall it's a while ago now. The Brownlow count was on the Monday before the finals began.

Anyway, Matthews won all the media awards that season - cars, caravans, holidays, money, whatever were the prizes back then. He won everything bar the Brownlow.

He was asked if he would swap them for the Brownlow. I have never forgotten his response: "Try going to the butcher shop and buying your weeks supply of meat with the Brownlow medal and see what you get?!"

Loved it.
 
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Matthews had a couple of years where he didnt get suspended and should have won Brownlows. The umpires dont decide who is fair and who isnt, unless they are putting players on report. Even then, the VFL/AFL then decide guilt, not the umpires. Their job is to call marks and frees as they see them, bounce the ball every so often, and at the end of the game provide 1, 2 and 3 votes to the 3 best players unaffected by anything else.

Not true. That is the situation now, but that only came in in the 80-90s. Up until then an umpire wouldtake into consideration 'fairness' in awarding votes.
Certainly a reported player became ineligible once suspended, but if he umpire thought it was worthy of a report, he probably would not award any Brownlow votes either.

Now the umpires do award 3-2-1 based purely on the 'Best' player and let the tribunal sort out the rest. But not back when Matthews was at his peak.
 
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Not true. That is the situation now, but that only came in in the 80-90s. Up until then an umpire wouldtake into consideration 'fairness' in awarding votes.
Certainly a reported player became ineligible once suspended, but if he umpire thought it was worthy of a report, he probably would not award any Brownlow votes either.

Now the umpires do award 3-2-1 based purely on the 'Best' player and let the tribunal sort out the rest. But not back when Matthews was at his peak.

Yet Matthews had the best season ever played by anyone, and won every single award for player of the year - except for the Brownlow.

Is it more that the umpires just dont understand football?
 
Its simply a sign that even 40 and 50 years ago the umpires were clueless when it came to voting.

In 1971 Peter Hudson averaged 8 marks a game and kicked 5 or more goals 18 times. In an era when low 20s was enough to win a Brownlow, surely he would have picked up a heap of 1s and 2s, and the times he kicked 10 or more.... 3s....
McKenna fared even worse that season.

He kicked 130 goals in the H&A season over 21 games (compared to Hudson's 140 over 22). Averaged 7 marks a game.

4 bags of 10 or more (Hudson 3), 10 others of 5 or more (including 1 nine and 3 eights).

So not that far off Huddo in pretty much every respect.

The result? 6 Brownlow votes (1 bog, 3 times one vote), compared to Huddo's 18.

Different sorts of players, I know, but still..........
 

btdg

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Footy was a different game then I q number of ways. There was less emphasis on stats and more on winning 1-1 contests and impact imo. Also the nature of the game throws up some weird starlings. In 77 for example Matthews had a game with 27 disposals and 6 goals. Incredible on paper buy he had a team mate go for 28 disposals and 8 goals in the same match. And Hawthorn gave up 44 free kicks.

Also, not sure where it is the move from 1-2-3-4 umpires or the rise of stats but the voting was very random at times, both from umpires and media. Someone who took a couple of nice marks could get 3 votes, while contested mids might get 40 touches and not get a vote. Consequently 20ish votes often won. The Greg Williams case is the most famous but that wasn't hugely surprising at tge time - that was probably the turning point where the votes started to get serious, though. Robert Klomp winning a car after getting 3 touches in the back pocket the other one that stands out.
 

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He was asked if he would swap them for the Brownlow. I have never forgotten his response: "Try going to the butcher shop and buying your weeks supply of meat with the Brownlow medal and see what you get?!"

Best done in a high pitched squeaky voice
 
Feb 9, 2009
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When Lethal played, they were the times. No Video evidence, what happened on the field, stayed on the field. Behind the play Cheap shots were a common occurrence. A few other players in the league would also go in with a raised elbow to bump, not just Lethal. Players and teams would try to take advantage, of their opponent. I remember Billy Brownless saying he would use the squirrel grip (having a handful of nuts) on unsuspecting players to beat them to the ball it was part and parcel of how the game was played.

The times also called for if you got knocked down, you got straight up and try to square the ledger later. you weren’t there trying to dive or plead for a free. So for people saying he a thug, a coward should have spent time in prison ect, There were players like lethal in every team in that era. You going to label them in the same catergory? At least Mathews wouldn’t run behind other players to try and hide from his actions, Like Matty Lloyd did, after he lined up Brad Sewell, which was in an era when that behaviour was had been stamped out. Mathews would stand there and take it.

If Mathews was playing in today’s era, he would be right up there with Dusty Martin as the best player in the league. Yes he would have to tackle more rather than bump. If he did choose to bump, he would have to do it with his elbows lowered. Other than that, his explosiveness, vision, ability to be duel sided, his hardness at the ball, along with his disposal and goal kicking abilities would be a highlight in today’s game.

Would he have won a Brownlow in today’s time, possibly not, as he is one of these players, that play on the edge, that could embarrass the award by winning it while being ineligible to do so. So umpires take points off him, to prevent that.

*edit* changed Most of the players would bump with a raised elbow, to a few others would also bump with a raised elbow. As it was brought to my attention that the previous statement was not factually correct.
None of that makes anything he did acceptable.
 
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Cannot comment on seasons before I started watching but there no season in the time I watched from 1978 onwards where Lethal Leigh should have won a Brownlow.
Lockett is an interesting one given it so hard for key forwards to win one now. But Lockett was not an outright thug like Matthews. So it not surprising he could win one as there a lot of times Lockett did nothing wrong to be seen as unfair. Generally a guy like Lockett and Ablett would give warnings what was to come for most of their victims. Somebody going into the leading space would get a hint from them, you running in danger territory if keep it up...ha ha..
Thats the thing with forwards in a contact sport. The contact they make (ie knocking blokes over while leading at the ball) is part of the contact nature of the sport. They're all just going the ball and collide.

Running up to a bloke from behind who is just standing there while the ball is 50m away and roundhousing him to the head is not.
 
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3 times 10+
3 times 9
8 times 6 or 7
4 more times kicked 5.

From all of that he got 18 votes.

When Lockett won he kicked 10 once, 9 twice, a few 8s and a bunch of 5s and 6s.
Yeah but lockets 87 brownlow wasnt in the top 5 lockett seasons.

locket kicked 127 goals in the 1991 season at an average of over 7 a game. Kicked 6 bags of 10 goals or more. Only got 16 brownlow votes.

lockett was a big name then. He wasnt a big name at the start of his 87 brownlow season.

back then the big names used to get marked more harshly for being bigger names. I.e expectation bias.
 
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Someone who took a couple of nice marks could get 3 votes, while contested mids might get 40 touches and not get a vote. Consequently 20ish votes often won.
Do not think that is why 20ish votes often won.
I think it more a case you got the best players spread across 12 teams instead of 18, so there more stars in each match to compete with for the votes.
If guys like Gary Dempsey, Keith Greig, Ross Glendinning, Blight etc are playing in same game on same team it a lot harder for them to dominate the 3 voters than it is in an era where salary cap imposed and stars spread across more games and clubs. The stars are going to find it harder to get votes if a game when more stars on average in each game. So it a lot easier to get well over 25 votes now. A star like Fyfe is not competing with a Keith Greig, Blight like stars on his same team as often.
 

Nugett

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None of that makes anything he did acceptable.

Based on today’s standards? Then Yes you are correct, it isn’t acceptable. In the times that he played, there were a few others that played in a similar vein. He played to win and did what ever it took to get that win. Winning was the only acceptable outcome. Two seperate era’s two different standards.
 
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Based on today’s standards? Then Yes you are correct, it isn’t acceptable. In the times that he played, there were a few others that played in a similar vein. He played to win and did what ever it took to get that win. Winning was the only acceptable outcome. Two seperate era’s two different standards.
If his thuggery was acceptable then why was he suspended and even charged by the police?

Weak words in support of a weak dog of a human.
 

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Extremely dirty player, a lot of his plays were no effort at trying to play legitimately. Clotheslines galore, elbows into heads, knees into opponents' heads when on the ground.

I'm surprised no one kicked him straight in his knee to break it or gouged out his eyes while on the ground, doubt there would have been many sympathisers for him.
 
Jul 13, 2015
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Fairest and best

The umpires understood a lot better than you do

Yet wasnt suspended that year, which is the only requirement for the fairest part of it. Which is why Lockett and Dipper got Brownlows.

Clearly neither you nor the umpires understand.

More that you don't understand what "fairest" means

And here is another who doesnt understand what fairest means. Can you show anywhere in the rules where it says the umpires are free to decide what fairest means, or where fairest means anything other than "dont get suspended in that season".
 

Generation X

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Yet wasnt suspended that year, which is the only requirement for the fairest part of it. Which is why Lockett and Dipper got Brownlows.

Clearly neither you nor the umpires understand.



And here is another who doesnt understand what fairest means. Can you show anywhere in the rules where it says the umpires are free to decide what fairest means, or where fairest means anything other than "dont get suspended in that season".

Being fair doesn't just mean not getting suspended 🤣

Anyone who thinks Mathews was the fairest and best in any year clearly never saw him play
 
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And widely acknowledged as a dirty sniper by anyone who saw him play

Not sure what your point is
goodes sniped at the pea hearts of bogans and conservatives who can't accept that aboriginal people have ever been treated poorly and that calling them a gorilla is not simply a joke.

on field, he was as fair as any other player.
 

btdg

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Do not think that is why 20ish votes often won.
I think it more a case you got the best players spread across 12 teams instead of 18, so there more stars in each match to compete with for the votes.
If guys like Gary Dempsey, Keith Greig, Ross Glendinning, Blight etc are playing in same game on same team it a lot harder for them to dominate the 3 voters than it is in an era where salary cap imposed and stars spread across more games and clubs. The stars are going to find it harder to get votes if a game when more stars on average in each game. So it a lot easier to get well over 25 votes now. A star like Fyfe is not competing with a Keith Greig, Blight like stars on his same team as often.

I'm not sure I agree with this.

In 1970 the population of Victoria was around 2.5 million and that means that the 12 Victorian teams drew on a pool of about 208,000 people each, with a scattering of players from outside topping up above that. Today there's 18 teams drawing on a far bigger population. Even if we only include Vic, SA and WA, the population is about 11 million people = 611,000 people each. Throw in better and more consistent training methods, better injury management, and the pool and depth of talent is much, much deeper.

That should lead to the opposite. Teams today should be spreading votes far more thinly. Sure, North Melbourne had Blight, Grieg, Cable, Crosswell and Dench, but they thinned out a bit as well too Melbourne. Melbourne this year equally had Petracca, Oliver, Gawn, etc, and they bat far deeper.

That should translate to the 70s and 80s being dominated by high vote counts imo - the gulf between the stars and the scrubs was enormous, and it stands out like anything when you watch old games.

I think that along with umpire error (which was harder in the days when there was no stats sheet and one senior/one junior umpire rather than than 5 veterans or whatever you get today), the two big factors are:
- the decline of big backs of goalkicking. Less random blokes popping up and kicking 6, let alone star forwards kicking 12
- better fitness, rotations and planning/preparation, as well as less tagging of midfielders, meaning that good midfielders play well more often
 
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