Covid-19 Welcome to Freedom

[CM86]

sorted

The amount of deliberately disseminated disinformation has created a unique situation. The 'anti-vaccine' movement seems to need these requirements put in place, that wouldn't normally be necessary.


So many of the areas are incredibly complicated, multifaceted and highly nuanced. A specialist in one area may not be able to properly understand and explain specialist information from another area. Even though they have clear connection. This is why we have experts, and why we look to them.
Yes, the system sometimes fails, sometimes the majority expert opinion has been wrong. What would you replace it with?

When a single sentence has enough misinformation to require several paragraphs in response, the nuance is gone and it's a serious problem.



Here is some reasons why I mostly support it.

I think it supports the employers/management because it provides them legal protection. It helps every individual business/association/etc work out specific legal frameworks and litigation. And doesn't need to find individual legal advice and frameworks with shareholders, partners, suppliers, retailers etc.

I think it supports workers/employees if their employer/manager is 'anti-vaccine'. They don't have to worry about the power dynamic, or legal positions. They can just point to the Government requirements. There is a clear outline of expectations in the workplace.


The Government/leadership should follow the advice of the majority of the science, research, data, medical expertise and knowledge etc.

The other view to that story could be argued that he is making a personal choice, that may reduce or remove his ability to represent his constituents.
I don't think either view is fair.



This is, at least, misinformation.
It's a short, powerful looking sentence. But it's fallacious.
Why ignore

1. Any Federal MP sitting virtually, has already reduced their capacity to fully participate.​

2. There have been rules that have been adapted or changed, where reasonable, since the pandemic. This one can continue to change.​

3. There is multiple reasons that a secure video link is required. It makes sense that it would be installed in their electorate office, but doesn't mean it's not possible to install it into certain homes, or to find some other way to connect securely.​

4. The Federal parliament created the strict rules around virtual attendance.​

Additionally, he previously reduced his capacity to participate in certain areas of Government before. When he stood down from "the speaker's panel and his committee chairmanship".
A small part of his reasoning was that he believed Greg Hunt misled him. The implication being that he would now mistrust Greg Hunt.
His very first statement in his list was.

“I’m uncomfortable with mass vaccination of the population, with the vaccine that is, according to Minister Hunt, being trialled across the world.”​

So the story is based on a Facebook post by a Federal MP, explaining his position of mistrust, where he specifically mentions the Federal minister for health, Greg Hunt. And this Federal MP may not be able to participate in Federal Parliament, due to Federal Parliament rules, that could be modified again.

And the takeaway from this, is that "effectively this means that Daniel Andrews has passed laws that prevent an elected Federal member participating in Parliament."

But none of what I've just explained matters to certain people, because it's too much to read, or they will just disagree due to confirmation bias, or someone will throw in a quip that 'justifies' it being disregarded.
Because that sentence is short and looks powerful. While my multiple sentences are boring.
Which is part of why I support the requirements. Because in our current climate, it's seemingly impossible to combat misinformation/disinformation.

“Any direction or order from an employer to an employee must be lawful and reasonable in all the circumstances,” Mr Bornstein said.​

​

“In the context of a pandemic – and in particular Delta variant, which is highly infectious and dangerous – it is likely that courts will uphold employer orders compelling employees to be vaccinated.”​

​

On the flipside, Mr Bornstein said employers who didn’t ensure their workers were vaccinated could leave themselves open to being sued if, as a result of that failure, people became sick or died.​

​

“Employers have a duty to provide a safe workplace and a failure to take reasonable steps to ensure that safety can result in very extensive legal problems,” he said. - Brisbane Times​

I also think his comments are interesting. And they seem clear and reasonable.

Do you find any of it unusual or unreasonable?


You make a compelling point in support of the requirements.

Also, I feel like the comments you keep referring to, explained it.

​

On the flipside, Mr Bornstein said employers who didn’t ensure their workers were vaccinated could leave themselves open to being sued if, as a result of that failure, people became sick or died.​

​

“Employers have a duty to provide a safe workplace and a failure to take reasonable steps to ensure that safety can result in very extensive legal problems,” he said. - Brisbane Times​

​

So in this case, the employer is following regulations, requirements, the law etc.

I'm struggling to envisage a scenario where the employer could be successfully sued, in your 'hypothetical'. Can you expand on it please?

Also, from the same article.
Associate Professor at the ANU College of Law, Dr Ron Levy

Dr Levy said a court faced with human rights claims, would balance that with the untold social upheaval, economic catastrophe and, most of all, widescale death and morbidity from COVID-19.​

“It is likely that the court will back the Victorian government, either in whole or in part,” Dr Levy said.​

“Courts particularly tend to defer to governments in times of emergency, like this one.” - Brisbane Times​

From what I understand, if it all turns out to be an international conspiracy. The employer would still be protected, but the Government could then be sued.




How?

What's another scenario where you'd hold your position?
Harnesses, safety goggles?

It's possible that our views on these things are so opposite, that I'm completely missing important context, or what you might feel is base knowledge.

 

[Seeds]

There’s an argument there.

What about anyone who goes to a nightclub to dance With a large group of strangers?

 

[Chief]

What about anyone who goes to a nightclub to dance With a large group of strangers?

Yep - lots of stuff like that. Though “dancing in the same room as strangers who are also dancing” isn’t a job.

 

[JoondalupJ]

But more people have died this year after receiving the Vaccine than people dying from COVID , all the stats are on the TGA website
Plus these ain’t vaccines so you can’t compare them to Vaccines of the past

Never believe those stats, each and every one of those numbers comes with an individual situation and every individual situation is different, and every difference is like the COVID death count? Is the death caused by COVID? Or a co-morbidity with the infection, BUT, not from it.
And that is an answer, no individual STATISTICIAN can tell you because we already know that the mass death numbers in 2020 were of people in the main with vulnerability to serious illness' that weren't COVID , MANY DIED WITH IT IN A TEST TUBE FROM THEIR BODY BEING TESTED, BUT ALSO DIED FROM IT ITSELF.
We also know that stats where anyone died were told to be written up as a COVID death, look, nothings cut and dried, but the fellow in a Richmond deli recently, who died of COVID was unvaccinated, his family were vaccinated, he died, they didn't even have positive test results and bravely opened up to the media to say GET VACCINATED. R.I.P. to that gentleman.

The conspiracy theories coming out are simply only that. get vaccinated, it will not kill you , as several millions and millions of vaccinated people are proving. Don't believe the rumours, or any scuttlebutt, even Craig Kelly was correct to a degree about HCQ and Ivermectin, but now he's seemed to take off on this anti-vax crud , too, you can find cranks telling you anything any time if you look for it, I found one by accident on one of those religious shows while surfing the bloody fox, their numbers and ravings , were very well put and a bit disturbing except for one major problem , those numbers and figures on what they were talking about with vaccines was impossible for them to even know , it ends up a joke, because the couldn't have an opening to thousands upon thousand of individuals they were discussing.
But some of these folk are very tunnel visioned and extremely stuck in their beliefs. They make a living out of conspiracy theories, most human beings on this planet have basic common sense. Thats why millions and millions are vaccinated.
If you got crook from a vaccine and died or wound up in hospital well thats the risk when something like COVID turns up, the risk is worth it, because for most it works out, and the problems for some vaccs side effects are solved and they get through it anyway.
If you want to lock up forever, then stop kicking that footy to a dangerous spot, and never take the chance to score.

You will be locked up forever. I've had both my jabs, and the vaccines can only improve , the treatments too, but they are not really ready yet, so get on with it and stop worrying , its not Ebola.... yet? Or is it, wait? Is that a conspiracy story.
Hell they even contained that sh*t! Even the bubonic plague is still here. ha ha .

 

[JoondalupJ]

So you want to reduce the average life expectancy of all people just cos you cant be bothered to spend five minutes getting an injection?

the time it takes to get a drivers license is a hell of a lot longer yet they are mandated to drive. is it an unacceptable loss of liberty when society forces you to get a license before you can drive?


i think its a loss of liberty when i have to wear masks and i cant travel without threat of getting a virus thats quite dangerous to older people and causes severe long term illness in some younger people. But the loss of liberty isnt imposed by the government. Its imposed by the unvaccinated.

Seeds that is brilliant, you said it in a few words, I said in ten million words, ha ha good on you mate, that IS common sense.

 

[Chief]

We also know that stats where anyone died were told to be written up as a COVID death

Could we put this to bed? It’s rubbish.

Doctors don’t just scrawl “Covid” on a form.

All factors they know about are recorded.

 

[Seeds]

Yep - lots of stuff like that. Though “dancing in the same room as strangers who are also dancing” isn’t a job.

It isnt but it is an activity that the majority of 15-35 year olds do. Likewise the majority of 12-35 year olds also play sport. Basically for those two reasons alone its mandatory for that age group to get vaccines.

And so it should be. We should jist make itandatory for everyone to make it all simplier.

 

[Seeds]

.


Iirc Australian chief health officers have said you are wearing masks essentially forever so take it up with them.

Many people die and are sick prior to pandemic - What's different with corona? How many children die every day from preventable causes? No one seems to care about those issues.

My very health coworker (runs 10k for a laugh) was apparently in hospital for a long time after his 2nd vax...

Apparently "a FDA spokesman saying males under 40 have a greater risk with the COVID injections, than getting COVID infection. "

pregnant woman fetus death, via xcovid vax sounds rather unsavory too. Etc.

These are the types of things that concern me not waiting 5 min for a needle.

Do you get all your news from fake news posted on social media and one off examples that you only have partial information on? Are you really that stupid?

im sorry but its time we start calling out people for being so effing dumb. You are endangering all of us.

 

[Chief]

Basically for those two reasons alone its mandatory for that age group to get vaccines.

Well, no.

Do you see where you’re going wrong? How you’re taking a requirement to get vaccinated if you work in an industry and setting up a straw man? I do not think a mandate is required “if you’re in an age group that is more likely to take part in a particular activity” and this is not inconsistent with the idea that working in a particular industry means a mandate is probably valid.

In no way at all.

 

[NonPhixion]

When can we expect the Novavax in Australia ?

 

[Seeds]

Well, no.

Do you see where you’re going wrong? How you’re taking a requirement to get vaccinated if you work in an industry and setting up a straw man? I do not think a mandate is required “if you’re in an age group that is more likely to take part in a particular activity” and this is not inconsistent with the idea that working in a particular industry means a mandate is probably valid.

In no way at all.

who gives a toss if its an industry or not. Human life and coronaivirus spread is not constrained to just work. That is only one element of it.

nearly all humans under 35 either play sport or go to nightclubs At some point in their year. And all the others will interact with those people in confined settings such as in restaurants, in bed or in workplaces. in order to do this safely they need to all be vaccinated. Ergo basically everyone of those age groups needs to be vaccinated.

the whole selected workplace vaccination thing is only because people are in lockdown. once lockdowm ends everyone needs to get vaccinated. Life cant return to normal without everyone getting vaccinated.

can you stop pandering to anti vaxers and pretinding its only people from a couple of industries that need to get vaccinated. This is false.

 

[Chief]

 

[Marcel Proust]

Stop spreading lies and bullshit.

How many people have gone to hospital with vax side effects?

 

[Chief]

How many people have gone to hospital with vax side effects?

No doubt you have a spreadsheet. Printed out and stapled to a wall with pieces of red string pinned to those pages, the other end pinned to pictures of Jewish people.

How close am I to the truth here? I have a bet riding on it!

 

[Marcel Proust]

No doubt you have a spreadsheet. Printed out and stapled to a wall with pieces of red string pinned to those pages, the other end pinned to pictures of Jewish people.

How close am I to the truth here? I have a bet riding on it!

Only pictures of Jews I have is the women of the IDF insta page.

Any scientists you want to discredit today cause you don't like their shirt?

 

[Chief]

Any scientists you want to discredit today cause you don't like their shirt?

When I see a real one, I will let you know.

 

[Mateyman]

I predict never.

Maybe our new submarines can deliver the Novavax supplies in about 2056

 

[Marcel Proust]

Maybe our new submarines can deliver the Novavax supplies in about 2056

My preference was TURKOVAC

 

[Marcel Proust]

Judges, MP and lawyers are Exempt from mandatory vax lol

 

[Seeds]

Judges, MP and lawyers are Exempt from mandatory vax lol

You make a good point. Everyone should face mandatory vaccines. I agree.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Can't say that with certainty imo. Its a possibility, sure.

Which is an absolute indictment in itself. This was the story when covid kicked off last year, they've had 18 months to bolster the hospital system and/or build covid-specific facilities - whats been done?

The major stumbling block will be staffing.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

The internal chat board at work with regards to the WA, State Government mandate and the BHP mandate has gone from ridiculous to crazy, I'm surprised they haven't closed all the threads down and deleted them, the only reason would be they're afraid of getting accused of censorship in a company that prides itself on their, 'safe to speak up', environment.

We've gone from drilling down into the ingredients, adverse reactions, my choice, my body, to Nazis experimenting on Jews during the holocaust to BHP next taking a kidney off you or a slice of your liver to give it to someone more deserving. Chimpanzees have been thrown under the bus too.

When they're talking about ingredients, types of vaccinations etc, I'd be pretty confident that 100% wouldn't know the first thing about what they're talking about, they're just cutting and pasting what they read and regurgitating what they hear.

Someone posted up a screen shot up the other day, not attributed to anyone other than a screen grab of some nobody's blog that stated that those who get vaccinated are 13,000 more likely to get infected than those not vaccinated. They then grabbed it with both hands and ran with it, spreading it like it's gospel.

A work colleague that has just returned from break today, got his first jab on break down at Margaret River. He was terrified of getting it and had worked himself into such a state, sweating, elevated heart rate, the whole shebang, that after he got it, he fainted. He has shared this with everyone and they're now more terrified of it.

I have regular interactions with probably 20 people at work that we talk about it. There are 5 of us fully jabbed, 3 with one jab and the other dozen don't want it and are scared shitless.

The WA State Government mandate comes into effect on 01 Jan 2022 for all fifo and residential resource workers and the BHP, Australian wide mandate for all their workplaces, remote and urban comes into effect on 01 Feb 2021. I think I'll be seeing a lot of pride being swallowed between now and then.

With the rapid fall in the iron price and the uncertainty over China, maybe BHP see it as an easy way to get rid of 10 to 20% of their bloated workforce without having to pay out redundancies.

 

[Chief]

I wonder if this is the first step in the legal discussions that will find these mandates invalid?

Commonwealth, justice employees in Victoria granted vaccine exemption

Authorised workers in Victoria have been given a reprieve after the Andrews government backflipped on plans to enforce a COVID vaccination mandate. All Commonwealth employees as well as people who work in connection with court proceedings will be exempt with a government spokesperson saying...

www.skynews.com.au

Probably not.

Can't stop judges and elected representatives from doing their job.

Stopping MPs would be disenfranchising their electorate. But of course they could video link in.

 

[Chief]

See my post #23

The Liberal member for Monash, Russell Broadbent, will not be able travel to his electorate and will be locked out of his ministerial offices as he is not vaccinated. Parliament’s rules for operating virtually require MPs to use secure video links from their offices, not their homes. Effectively this means that Daniel Andrews has passed laws that prevent an elected Federal member participating in Parliament.

One less LNP member in parliament. Cool.

 

[dusty1234!]

I think my MP Neil Angus is refusing the vaccine is well. He does SFA for my community anyway so shouldn't really make a difference