The off topic thread 5.0

[SM]

Yes I do remember MMR and I do remember people linking it to autism. It didn't mean that I believed those claims or was trying to convince people they were true.

And I certainly didn't suggest there was any scientific evidence behind the claims.

Both of my kids had their MMR jabs when they were due.

I also haven't argued against vaccines or suggested anyone shouldn't have them. It's a choice people have to make given their own circumstances. We made our choice, and that's right for us right now.

A little less strawman thanks, there's an awful lot of it around at the moment.

Is this the word of the month on your calendar? Perhaps you should look up what it means before using it in a sentence, you've used it an awful lot in the wrong context.

Bojan mentioned that you had cited a scientific study and the only post I could recall where you had done so was when you had mentioned people saying you shouldn't give MMR to kids, which was quickly disproven by another poster. Please learn what a strawman is because citing a post you made is not it. It may have been the incorrect post but then it's just 'the wrong post' not a strawman.

 

[moomba]

Is this the word of the month on your calendar? Perhaps you should look up what it means before using it in a sentence, you've used it an awful lot in the wrong context.

Bojan mentioned that you had cited a scientific study and the only post I could recall where you had done so was when you had mentioned people saying you shouldn't give MMR to kids, which was quickly disproven by another poster. Please learn what a strawman is because citing a post you made is not it. It may have been the incorrect post but then it's just 'the wrong post' not a strawman.

A strawman is exactly what you're doing, and have been doing quite a lot. Maybe why I'm feeling the need to use the word a lot.

And for the record, i never mentioned a scientific study on MMR so it can't have been disproven by another poster. I've never even seen a scientific study on MMR.

I also have never argued against vaccines, and am not arguing against vaccines for 12-15 year olds.

 

[SM]

A strawman is exactly what you're doing, and have been doing quite a lot. Maybe why I'm feeling the need to use the word a lot.

And for the record, i never mentioned a scientific study on MMR so it can't have been disproven by another poster. I've never even seen a scientific study on MMR.

I also have never argued against vaccines, and am not arguing against vaccines for 12-15 year olds.

Haha ok.

 

[go you pups]

My favourite thing at the moment is going on Facebook and calling mark McGowan “Adolf McGowan and his Nazi regime” etc. It’s crazy how many people like and agree with you. I can’t believe they even compare the two scenarios and act like we have it as bad as those individuals had it.

The sheep insult is a classic. They don’t realise they are just sheep following a different Shepard on the other side of the spectrum.

I have cousins who are 100% into every conspiracy under the sun. They even question my brother who’s an epidemiologist and say he’s wrong. It baffles me.

Exactly

Seen this a month or 2 ago on twitter, so I had to pinch it





McGowan along with Marshall and Gutwein have done the best for their respective states, can't really fault any of them for largely keeping it out.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Here ya go:


I'll even go through case by case in the first link:
Cutter Incident 1955: some batches of polio vaccine contained live polio virus due to manufacture error, resulted in creation of better vaccine regulation of vaccines and the creation of a vaccine injury compensation program. The vaccine itself was okay though and went back into use in the same year.

Simian Virus 40 1955-1963: contamination of 10-30% polio vaccines with simian virus 40, causing fears that the vaccines may cause cancer but no causal association was found between the receipt of the vaccine and development of cancer. Resulted in new testing requirements, now no vaccines contain it.

Swine Flu Vaccine and GBS 1976: small increased risk of GBS after swine flu vaccination, issue was explored and found that there was a link. This is now part of the list of possible side effects and is monitored. The increased risk was an additional 1 per 100,000 people who got the vaccine. This is a fair shout, but was discovered in the same year, not years later.

Hep B vaccine and MS 1998: Research caused concern that Hep B vaccine may be linked to MS, but link has not been found in large body of research since. Conclusion made via review of all available evidence by the Institute of Medicine (I assume a US thing?) that there is no link between the two.

Rotavirus Vaccine and Intussusception 1998-99: shortly after licensing RotaShield vaccine for rotavirus, some infants developed intussusception (a rare type of bowel obstruction). Use of the vaccine quickly suspended, investigations found there was an increased risk of intussusception in infants after the vaccine and the recommendation to vaccinate infants with it was withdrawn and the manufacturer voluntarily withdrew the vaccine in 1999. So yes, another case where there was a side effect but again, found shortly after vaccination.

GBS and Meningococcal Vaccine 2005-08: Concerns that a meningococcal vaccine caused GBS after a number of young people reported GBS after receiving the vaccine. Two large studies with over 2 million vaccinated adolescents conducted, and concluded there was no link between the vaccine and GBS.

Hib vaccine recall 2007: Manufacturer recalled 1.2mill doses of Hib vaccines because of potential contamination. Recall precautionary, and after review no evidence of infection was found in recipients of recalled vaccines.

H1N1 vaccine and narcolepsy 2009-10: Increased risk of narcolepsy after a vaccination with Pandemrix, a H1N1 vaccine. Studies from the CDC in 2014 and 2018 found no associations between the vaccines and narcolepsy.

Porcine Circovirus in Rotavirus Vaccines 2010: Both rotavirus vaccines found in the US contained a common virus found in pigs, PCV type 1. PCV1 isn't known to cause disease in animals or humans and is common in healthy pigs. Humans are routinely exposed to the virus by eating pork. Safety monitoring has shown no reason for concern about PCV.

HPV vaccine recall 2013: One batch of a HPV vaccine recalled as a precaution after a manufacturing error. There were concerns that a small number of vials might have contained glass particles, but no health problems were reported related to the recall other than side effects which can occur from any vaccination.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So of that list, there are only two which were not some sort of manufacture error or where a link was found between the illness and the vaccine. Both times, the issues were discovered shortly after the vaccine was put into use.

I wanted to wait until I was in front of a computer to respond to this. You have concluded succinctly and I acknowledge that it would be extremely rare for side effects from vaccinations to only become known years later with any issues resolved relatively quickly. I have seen drug companies take years waiting patiently and in some cases going bankrupt whilst waiting for FDA approval as the process has been rigorous for some time and is based on years of testing. I do have a bit of unease at the pace at which these vaccinations were approved but completely understand the need for regulatory authorities to approve these vaccinations and pressure they were under to do so. Excuse me for conflating drugs and vaccinations. This is definitely not my area of expertise!

One query you may have knowledge on, I have noticed that quite a few people in my age group (28-35) are really struggling to conceive at the moment with very healthy people being forced down the IVF route as a last resort and many having miscarriages. I was lucky or unlucky depending on your POV but my wife and I had no trouble at all initially but are trying for number 2 atm and it hasn't been as easy especially as women are usually very fertile after giving birth. I'm not linking this to the vaccine at all but more wondering whether this could be a generational lifestyle thing (I treated my body like an amusement park during my 20s) or whether there is another explanation. It all just seems a bit too much of a coincidence to me.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Is this the word of the month on your calendar? Perhaps you should look up what it means before using it in a sentence, you've used it an awful lot in the wrong context.

Bojan mentioned that you had cited a scientific study and the only post I could recall where you had done so was when you had mentioned people saying you shouldn't give MMR to kids, which was quickly disproven by another poster. Please learn what a strawman is because citing a post you made is not it. It may have been the incorrect post but then it's just 'the wrong post' not a strawman.

I mentioned that Moomba had posted the UK Government scientific opinion on use of the covid vaccine in 12-15(?) year olds.

 

[SM]

I mentioned that Moomba had posted the UK Government scientific opinion on use of the covid vaccine in 12-15(?) year olds.

Yes.

 

[Loonerty]

I wanted to wait until I was in front of a computer to respond to this. You have concluded succinctly and I acknowledge that it would be extremely rare for side effects from vaccinations to only become known years later with any issues resolved relatively quickly. I have seen drug companies take years waiting patiently and in some cases going bankrupt whilst waiting for FDA approval as the process has been rigorous for some time and is based on years of testing. I do have a bit of unease at the pace at which these vaccinations were approved but completely understand the need for regulatory authorities to approve these vaccinations and pressure they were under to do so. Excuse me for conflating drugs and vaccinations. This is definitely not my area of expertise!

One query you may have knowledge on, I have noticed that quite a few people in my age group (28-35) are really struggling to conceive at the moment with very healthy people being forced down the IVF route as a last resort and many having miscarriages. I was lucky or unlucky depending on your POV but my wife and I had no trouble at all initially but are trying for number 2 atm and it hasn't been as easy especially as women are usually very fertile after giving birth. I'm not linking this to the vaccine at all but more wondering whether this could be a generational lifestyle thing (I treated my body like an amusement park during my 20s) or whether there is another explanation. It all just seems a bit too much of a coincidence to me.

Well I think it could be just as much a coincidence of things like birth control becoming more prevalent or almost anything which has had increased use in the last 20-30 years... Studies have been done debunking the rumours that the COVID vaccines cause sterility though.

I think this is just something like confirmation bias. I really recommend watching this documentary if you get a chance. It is long, but it's incredibly eye opening and gives really strong evidence for why we really need to critique all science:


It goes through the "vaccines cause autism" origins and discusses essentially that the study was basically parents saying they noticed signs of autism or neurodivergence in their children after receiving the MMR vaccine - and so because the last thing that they remember happening was the vaccine, they assume it must be the cause.

There's an example he uses where someone might cough on you, then later in the evening you get sick and you think "it was that guy that coughed on me today", when really it could have taken a while to develop (like COVID has a 14 day incubation period, the same is true for other infections) and it could have been someone who coughed or sneezed on you weeks ago - but you don't remember it because you didn't immediately feel sick.

 

[Loonerty]

Also from a quick Google, it seems that changes in fertility are brought about by environmental issues, lifestyle changes and the tendency for women to have children later in life than a few decades ago.

 

[Oshka]

Bit going on in here

 

[bok_party]

Well I think it could be just as much a coincidence of things like birth control becoming more prevalent or almost anything which has had increased use in the last 20-30 years... Studies have been done debunking the rumours that the COVID vaccines cause sterility though.

I think this is just something like confirmation bias. I really recommend watching this documentary if you get a chance. It is long, but it's incredibly eye opening and gives really strong evidence for why we really need to critique all science:


It goes through the "vaccines cause autism" origins and discusses essentially that the study was basically parents saying they noticed signs of autism or neurodivergence in their children after receiving the MMR vaccine - and so because the last thing that they remember happening was the vaccine, they assume it must be the cause.

There's an example he uses where someone might cough on you, then later in the evening you get sick and you think "it was that guy that coughed on me today", when really it could have taken a while to develop (like COVID has a 14 day incubation period, the same is true for other infections) and it could have been someone who coughed or sneezed on you weeks ago - but you don't remember it because you didn't immediately feel sick.

Great input mate

 

[Cruyff14]

One query you may have knowledge on, I have noticed that quite a few people in my age group (28-35) are really struggling to conceive at the moment with very healthy people being forced down the IVF route as a last resort and many having miscarriages. I was lucky or unlucky depending on your POV but my wife and I had no trouble at all initially but are trying for number 2 atm and it hasn't been as easy especially as women are usually very fertile after giving birth. I'm not linking this to the vaccine at all but more wondering whether this could be a generational lifestyle thing (I treated my body like an amusement park during my 20s) or whether there is another explanation. It all just seems a bit too much of a coincidence to me.

Yes, we need to do IVF.

 

[glenferry23]

Bit going on in here

The topic sure does elicit a strong response.

 

[Zidane98]

Also from a quick Google, it seems that changes in fertility are brought about by environmental issues, lifestyle changes and the tendency for women to have children later in life than a few decades ago.

Yep. Pretty much all mates in my generation had kids at 30 or older. In my parents generation most were married by 25 and already having at least one child already. That trend is only worsening with millennials likely to remain living at home with parents until their early 30s at least.

It's a real issue because it will result in an ageing population in another generation's time.

 

[Loonerty]

Yep. Pretty much all mates in my generation had kids at 30 or older. In my parents generation most were married by 25 and already having at least one child already. That trend is only worsening with millennials likely to remain living at home with parents until their early 30s at least.

It's a real issue because it will result in an ageing population in another generation's time.

I don't think slowing population growth is necessarily a bad thing though.

 

[Zidane98]

I don't think slowing population growth is necessarily a bad thing though.

We definitely need a younger population. Otherwise future generations are gonna be working until their early 70s at least and that will bring a whole host of health and societal issues. This problem is even worse in Japan as they have negative population growth now with Japanese being overly career focused and not even thinking about families until their mid 30s and even then only having 1, maybe 2 children. As a result they've started to bring in young Chinese families to reverse the population decline trend (they fit in easily culturally).

 

[Loonerty]

We definitely need a younger population. Otherwise future generations are gonna be working until their early 70s at least and that will bring a whole host of health and societal issues. This problem is even worse in Japan as they have negative population growth now with Japanese being overly career focused and not even thinking about families until their mid 30s and even then only having 1, maybe 2 children. As a result they've started to bring in young Chinese families to reverse the population decline trend (they fit in easily culturally).

But what's the solution there?
It's a difficult issue, because we can't just cull old people obviously but we're also beyond women being mothers as their primary focus, so we probably won't see a change in their choices to have kids later in life.

 

[SM]

Yep. Pretty much all mates in my generation had kids at 30 or older. In my parents generation most were married by 25 and already having at least one child already. That trend is only worsening with millennials likely to remain living at home with parents until their early 30s at least.

It's a real issue because it will result in an ageing population in another generation's time.

Haha what?

 

[Zidane98]

But what's the solution there?
It's a difficult issue, because we can't just cull old people obviously but we're also beyond women being mothers as their primary focus, so we probably won't see a change in their choices to have kids later in life.

The solution is encouraging more people to have children at a younger age. That's exactly what Japan is doing right now. How exactly that is done I'm not sure but if the typical Aussie family is a coupe in their mid 30s with 1 or 2 kids max we'll be in trouble in 30 to 40 years time for sure.


I suggest reading up on the troubles they hare having in Japan atm due to low birth rates and a focus on career over family.

 

[Loonerty]

The solution is encouraging more people to have children at a younger age. That's exactly what Japan is doing right now. How exactly that is done I'm not sure but if the typical Aussie family is a coupe in their mid 30s with 1 or 2 kids max we'll be in trouble in 30 to 40 years time for sure.


I suggest reading up on the troubles they hare having in Japan atm due to low birth rates and a focus on career over family.

I am aware of it but how can you try to encourage it when it's just the will of the people to wait?
People are already irrationally mad about welfare so I'm not sure something like greater parent payments if you're younger will work.

 

[Loonerty]

I feel like the only solution would be to have some massive change in the system which will have other drawbacks.

If, for example, there was a UBI...

 

[SM]

The solution is encouraging more people to have children at a younger age. That's exactly what Japan is doing right now. How exactly that is done I'm not sure but if the typical Aussie family is a coupe in their mid 30s with 1 or 2 kids max we'll be in trouble in 30 to 40 years time for sure.


I suggest reading up on the troubles they hare having in Japan atm due to low birth rates and a focus on career over family.

Why encourage people to have kids younger when they can't even afford to buy a house to live in with said kids?

 

[chef]

Im my uneducated opinion I would think the age of couples having kids is linked to housing prices. Country couples are still have young family's and I guess mortgages allow that in the bush.

 

[Loonerty]

Why encourage people to have kids younger when they can't even afford to buy a house to live in with said kids?

This as well.

As it currently stands society does not encourage people to have children younger and anything which might go a way to correct those would be met with significant backlash.

 

[Zidane98]

Im my uneducated opinion I would think the age of couples having kids is linked to housing prices. Country couples are still have young family's and I guess mortgages allow that in the bush.

Yeah we need a focus on developing regional areas too.