News & Events Non-Football COVID-19 Discussions

Say you catch covid and are vaccinated and it doesn't do much to you, but then next year you get it again (you have had you're booster shot) but are perhaps a bit more sick from a variant that stronger, then the following year you get a mild case...and so on. What happens after we have had it 10 times. We will be allowing it to come, and allowing us to get it multiple times. Will there be some sort of damage to our bodies that will eventually catch up with us and make really sick.
No. The immune system doesn't work like that. Think of it like memories. For example - imagine yesterday you ate a really tasty looking jelly bean that was flavoured like a piece of dog s**t and you ate it and thought, "this is really gross I am never doing that again". But then next year you see a piece of dog s**t that looks delicious but that smells really similar to that jelly bean, and you take a really big sniff of it and it makes you a little woozy, but you remember that jelly bean flavoured dog s**t that you ate last year, and decide not to eat it because it was nasty. And then the year after that, you come across another similar piece of dog s**t that looks really tasty, but maybe this one is a different consistency, and so you have a little nibble, but then before you can go any further it triggers the memory of that dogshit flavoured jelly bean that you really didn't like, and you remember that it is a bad idea so you run away from that particular strain of dogshit.

its just like that.

The jelly bean is the vaccine, and covid is the dogshit.
 
Being a good person and an idiot isn't mutually exclusive. There's no good reason I've heard yet not to get vaccinated.
Many are refusing to get vaccinated because they are being forced to do so which is actually something that I can empathise with, especially as we are sitting close to 90% first dose…
 
Apr 1, 2008
14,748
17,336
NASA
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Coburg
Many are refusing to get vaccinated because they are being forced to do so which is actually something that I can empathise with, especially as we are sitting close to 90% first dose…
It's perfectly possible to be troubled by mandatory vaccination as a potential overreach of institutional power without resorting to a juvenile anti-authority reflex, and nor need it undermine the individual rationality of vaccination one bit.

Or to put it another way, there may well be reasons to not get vaccinated, but your employer or government telling you to do so isn't automatically one of them, even if you'd rather they didn't.
 
Last edited:
Many are refusing to get vaccinated because they are being forced to do so which is actually something that I can empathise with, especially as we are sitting close to 90% first dose…
I have a friend who is in that boat. He is a good person but an idiot in some ways. He will refuse to get vaccinated because YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO until it is the only thing left preventing his return to Bali..
 
Many are refusing to get vaccinated because they are being forced to do so which is actually something that I can empathise with, especially as we are sitting close to 90% first dose…
To be honest too, I reckon I was firmly in the anti-vax/ vaccine hesitant people are idiots at the start of this too. Now I’m not so sure
I think they went too soon with the mandates for that reason. Many people would have gotten vaccinated eventually anyway and have no real objection to vaccines generally in the first place, but are now in some sort of anti-authoritarian spiral where they're refusing on principle, rather than for practical reasons.

There's still a lot of people out there who have this idea that the vaccines "don't work" because they don't stop you getting it, passing it on, and because you need boosters every 6-12 months (hello flu vaccine, hello annual variants). Or that they were "developed too quickly", because normally vaccines take a lot longer to be developed (with less money and effort going into development and long waiting times to get approval for the next stage, evidently). Then there's people who heard about AZ being bad (thanks meedja) but never got the explanation for why it's suddenly okay to get (thanks Scomo), and potentially reinforcing the 'developed too quick' idea and assuming that Pfizer, Moderna and other vaccines will also have problems that we just don't know about yet.

As I've said a few times, I think educating people about the vaccines would be a better way of dealing with hesitancy, at least as a first step, rather than mandates. Especially I think those who don't work on a computer and can't spend all day googling stuff to figure it out. They hear a lot more from Neil Mitchell and their colleagues than they do from press conferences, so getting the message out there in ways that they're going to be able to engage with it should be the goal.


As far as certificates go, I think NSW is planning to stop asking for certificates when they get to 90% double dosed, especially with their old treasurer in charge now. I'm not sure if Victoria will follow suit at this stage, but even if they don't I'm guessing you'd still need them for interstate travel to WA, SA and Queensland, Tasmania so you're not going to take up a hospital bed if you do catch it while you're there, along with testing to make sure you're not importing the virus into a vulnerable community in the first place.


The main problem for unvaccinated people is that the vaccine doesn't stop you getting infected or transmitting it to other people, so there's no herd immunity (or not much) for them to rely on. It's not like other things that prevent infection in the first place.

Those who aren't vaccinated will almost definitely get covid once we open up, especially if those who are vaccinated aren't wearing masks or distancing because they think they're invincible. Unlike those who are vaccinated, unvaccinated people who get it are far more likely to have symptoms, end up hospitalised, ventilated and dead. So it's a big gamble to take for those people.

Anti-authoritarian principles won't save you when you're in ICU struggling to breathe – and by that stage neither will a vaccine or an anti-viral drug.


I'm hoping some summery weather will help reduce transmission at least...
 
To be honest too, I reckon I was firmly in the anti-vax/ vaccine hesitant people are idiots at the start of this too. Now I’m not so sure
Be sure (on antis. Hesitant is more complicated)
 
Last edited:
To be honest too, I reckon I was firmly in the anti-vax/ vaccine hesitant people are idiots at the start of this too. Now I’m not so sure
Anti vaxxers have been idiots since they claimed the smallpox vaccine would make you grow horns and an udder, and remain so to this day.
 

Pweter

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 12, 2010
15,387
20,561
Right here, right now
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Central Districts, Detroit Pistons
I think they went too soon with the mandates for that reason. Many people would have gotten vaccinated eventually anyway and have no real objection to vaccines generally in the first place, but are now in some sort of anti-authoritarian spiral where they're refusing on principle, rather than for practical reasons.

There's still a lot of people out there who have this idea that the vaccines "don't work" because they don't stop you getting it, passing it on, and because you need boosters every 6-12 months (hello flu vaccine, hello annual variants). Or that they were "developed too quickly", because normally vaccines take a lot longer to be developed (with less money and effort going into development and long waiting times to get approval for the next stage, evidently). Then there's people who heard about AZ being bad (thanks meedja) but never got the explanation for why it's suddenly okay to get (thanks Scomo), and potentially reinforcing the 'developed too quick' idea and assuming that Pfizer, Moderna and other vaccines will also have problems that we just don't know about yet.

As I've said a few times, I think educating people about the vaccines would be a better way of dealing with hesitancy, at least as a first step, rather than mandates. Especially I think those who don't work on a computer and can't spend all day googling stuff to figure it out. They hear a lot more from Neil Mitchell and their colleagues than they do from press conferences, so getting the message out there in ways that they're going to be able to engage with it should be the goal.


As far as certificates go, I think NSW is planning to stop asking for certificates when they get to 90% double dosed, especially with their old treasurer in charge now. I'm not sure if Victoria will follow suit at this stage, but even if they don't I'm guessing you'd still need them for interstate travel to WA, SA and Queensland, Tasmania so you're not going to take up a hospital bed if you do catch it while you're there, along with testing to make sure you're not importing the virus into a vulnerable community in the first place.


The main problem for unvaccinated people is that the vaccine doesn't stop you getting infected or transmitting it to other people, so there's no herd immunity (or not much) for them to rely on. It's not like other things that prevent infection in the first place.

Those who aren't vaccinated will almost definitely get covid once we open up, especially if those who are vaccinated aren't wearing masks or distancing because they think they're invincible. Unlike those who are vaccinated, unvaccinated people who get it are far more likely to have symptoms, end up hospitalised, ventilated and dead. So it's a big gamble to take for those people.

Anti-authoritarian principles won't save you when you're in ICU struggling to breathe – and by that stage neither will a vaccine or an anti-viral drug.


I'm hoping some summery weather will help reduce transmission at least...

The bolded explains my wife to a tee. I got my 2nd dose today but the kids (eldest is 13) have now picked up on my wife's narrative and are talking the same language. It sucks, especially when the rest of my wife's and my family are double dosed yet she remains so irrational.

My mother-in-law is getting quite pissed about it all now. I've been in the dog house over this topic enough and it hasn't had any impact to my wife's way of thinking, it's now over to the mother-in-law to try and get her to see common sense.
 
I think they went too soon with the mandates for that reason. Many people would have gotten vaccinated eventually anyway and have no real objection to vaccines generally in the first place, but are now in some sort of anti-authoritarian spiral where they're refusing on principle, rather than for practical reasons.

There's still a lot of people out there who have this idea that the vaccines "don't work" because they don't stop you getting it, passing it on, and because you need boosters every 6-12 months (hello flu vaccine, hello annual variants). Or that they were "developed too quickly", because normally vaccines take a lot longer to be developed (with less money and effort going into development and long waiting times to get approval for the next stage, evidently). Then there's people who heard about AZ being bad (thanks meedja) but never got the explanation for why it's suddenly okay to get (thanks Scomo), and potentially reinforcing the 'developed too quick' idea and assuming that Pfizer, Moderna and other vaccines will also have problems that we just don't know about yet.

As I've said a few times, I think educating people about the vaccines would be a better way of dealing with hesitancy, at least as a first step, rather than mandates. Especially I think those who don't work on a computer and can't spend all day googling stuff to figure it out. They hear a lot more from Neil Mitchell and their colleagues than they do from press conferences, so getting the message out there in ways that they're going to be able to engage with it should be the goal.


As far as certificates go, I think NSW is planning to stop asking for certificates when they get to 90% double dosed, especially with their old treasurer in charge now. I'm not sure if Victoria will follow suit at this stage, but even if they don't I'm guessing you'd still need them for interstate travel to WA, SA and Queensland, Tasmania so you're not going to take up a hospital bed if you do catch it while you're there, along with testing to make sure you're not importing the virus into a vulnerable community in the first place.


The main problem for unvaccinated people is that the vaccine doesn't stop you getting infected or transmitting it to other people, so there's no herd immunity (or not much) for them to rely on. It's not like other things that prevent infection in the first place.

Those who aren't vaccinated will almost definitely get covid once we open up, especially if those who are vaccinated aren't wearing masks or distancing because they think they're invincible. Unlike those who are vaccinated, unvaccinated people who get it are far more likely to have symptoms, end up hospitalised, ventilated and dead. So it's a big gamble to take for those people.

Anti-authoritarian principles won't save you when you're in ICU struggling to breathe – and by that stage neither will a vaccine or an anti-viral drug.


I'm hoping some summery weather will help reduce transmission at least...
There was quite an interesting discussion on Gruen last night about how to persuade anti-vaxxers. Calling them idiots doesn't work and nothing will work on about 10% of them, as I recall.
 
There was quite an interesting discussion on Gruen last night about how to persuade anti-vaxxers. Calling them idiots doesn't work and nothing will work on about 10% of them, as I recall.
Spot on. Actually listening to what they have to say is a good place to start.
 
Spot on. Actually listening to what they have to say is a good place to start.
What they have to say is ******* rubbish though just like flat earthers. You can't fight derp with facts and understanding.

I don't bring it up with my mate and change the subject or just stay silent when he starts up on one of his ranty rants on it.
 
People who are hesitant for reasons like what Pweter enunciated above or who don’t love mandates aren’t idiots.

People who actually seriously tout conspiratorial level garbage about the vaccines are definitely idiots and no, time should not be wasted giving their views any air or currency.
 
Apr 23, 2016
30,510
42,678
AFL Club
Essendon
It's perfectly possible to be troubled by mandatory vaccination as a potential overreach of institutional power without resorting to a juvenile anti-authority reflex, and nor need it undermine the individual rationality of vaccination one bit.

Or to put it another way, there may well be reasons to not get vaccinated, but your employer or government telling you to do so isn't automatically one of them, even if you'd rather they didn't.

I personally don't love the idea of mandatory vaccination, as it really starts to skirt the level of individual freedoms where people (IMO) should feel uncomfortable.

I also happen to think anti-vaxx people are morons. And people doing it as an anti-authority measure, are also morons.

They could / should have probably used more of a carrot than stick approach, particularly once vaccine supplies were suitably available, such that unvaccinated weren't restricted from what would be considered essential activities such as working, but were limited in non-essential and community type things (e.g. pubs, places of worship, sports etc..)

Someone who has no interest in doing something for the public good, is quite welcome to the consequences of that choice by being limited in their ability to engage in public activities. But coercing people in to taking it, by forcing them to choose between vaccination and being able to work, is really pushing the boundaries of democratic society, and should probably have been left a bit longer while we used a more carrot type incentivised approach to see where we landed.
 
Apr 1, 2008
14,748
17,336
NASA
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Coburg
I personally don't love the idea of mandatory vaccination, as it really starts to skirt the level of individual freedoms where people (IMO) should feel uncomfortable.

I also happen to think anti-vaxx people are morons. And people doing it as an anti-authority measure, are also morons.

They could / should have probably used more of a carrot than stick approach, particularly once vaccine supplies were suitably available, such that unvaccinated weren't restricted from what would be considered essential activities such as working, but were limited in non-essential and community type things (e.g. pubs, places of worship, sports etc..)

Someone who has no interest in doing something for the public good, is quite welcome to the consequences of that choice by being limited in their ability to engage in public activities. But coercing people in to taking it, by forcing them to choose between vaccination and being able to work, is really pushing the boundaries of democratic society, and should probably have been left a bit longer while we used a more carrot type incentivised approach to see where we landed.
I think the key here is the magic number, whatever it is, that stops the health system being overwhelmed by critical COVID cases. The nature of the virus and the vaccines mean herd immunity is unattainable and so once that level is hit the marginal gains diminish rapidly. What happens after that point is by the by - societal risk is mitigated, controls lose their justification and free-riding becomes impossible, so the consequences fall primarily on those who've declined vaccination.

If we didn't look like hitting that point then there's a public good case for compulsion in some form. If we did though, and vaccine uptake once both supply was available and infection became inevitable suggests we were getting there, compulsion certainly starts to look like a misstep.
 
Last edited:

Pweter

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 12, 2010
15,387
20,561
Right here, right now
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Central Districts, Detroit Pistons
We got a work email yesterday stating (where "company" is substituted for the real company name):

Whilst we acknowledge that vaccination is a personal choice, company's new policy stipulates that from 10 January 2022, any employee wishing to attend an company office, function or event, must be fully vaccinated.

A significant portion of the company are consultants who spend most of their time on client sites so a few weeks back they advised we need to adhere to client vaccination requirements. Given there's no guarantee which client you'll go to next then considering the above they've all but mandated vaccination if you want a job.
 
The most annoying thing when trying to reason with my wife is when she goes "blah blah blah, everyone is saying it".

Me: Who's everyone?

Her: Facebook
Facebook has a lot to answer for tbh. Intellectual wasteland.
 
What they have to say is ******* rubbish though just like flat earthers. You can't fight derp with facts and understanding.

I don't bring it up with my mate and change the subject or just stay silent when he starts up on one of his ranty rants on it.
There is a huge difference between vaccine hesitancy and out and out pot-smoking conspiracy theorist. I don’t entertain the bat-s**t crazy conspiracy s**t either for what it worth.
 
There is a huge difference between vaccine hesitancy and out and out pot-smoking conspiracy theorist. I don’t entertain the bat-sh*t crazy conspiracy sh*t either for what it worth.
I wouldn't say it's huge. 'Hesitancy' quite often seems to devolve with remarkable rapidity to batshit crazy conspiracy theorist when challenged with facts and logic.
 
There is a huge difference between vaccine hesitancy and out and out pot-smoking conspiracy theorist. I don’t entertain the bat-sh*t crazy conspiracy sh*t either for what it worth.
Hesitancy can typically be boiled down to not understanding how chance and probability work (particularly when it comes to comprehending how big big numbers actually are, which is a known phenomenon in humans) and the (for whatever reason) denial that they will catch COVID/my body is strong and can fight it off/whatever else, all of which are not necessarily true.

Take the blood clotting thing. What was the chance? 1 in 100,000 or something? That is a 0.001% chance of it happening.
If you catch COVID, your chance of the same blood clots is 16%. 16000 times more likely!!
For reference here, imagine tossing a coin 15 times. How likely is it that you get heads 15 times in a row? Pretty unlikely right?

That's three times more likely to happen than something with a 1 in 100,000 chance.

I understand not thinking you'd need the vaccine about 6 months ago when all looked well, but now the two most populous states in the country are in the middle of major outbreaks where your chance of catching COVID far outweighs the chances of any of the side effects from the vaccine. People who still claim hesitancy in this case are either hiding the fact they are an antivaxxer, flat out denying statistics and science or are misled, probably due to s**t people post on Facebook.
There are still no (reliable) studies which suggest an elevated chance of any major side effects and no vaccines have ever shown side effects which were discovered more than a couple of months after commencement of its use.
 
Take the blood clotting thing. What was the chance? 1 in 100,000 or something? That is a 0.001% chance of it happening.
If you catch COVID, your chance of the same blood clots is 16%. 16000 times more likely!!
For reference here, imagine tossing a coin 15 times. How likely is it that you get heads 15 times in a row? Pretty unlikely right?

That's three times more likely to happen than something with a 1 in 100,000 chance.
Or as we like to say in Melbourne, for every full house at the MCG, one person gets clots (how many of those clots are bad enough to cause actual side effects?)


The version of this particular story that I ran into is people who "know a lot of people who had this kidney/brain/heart problem after getting the vaccine" and therefore if out of all the people they've talked to 50% have a "problem from the clots" then that's a much stronger pattern than the 1 in 100,000 that is often quoted.

Thankfully said person got Moderna a couple of weeks ago and now believes themselves invincible, but they were never going to get AZ no matter what. Their mind was made up, they'd heard all the stuffs and weren't going to be convinced by some "bookworm pen pusher who has never been in the real world".
 
The version of this particular story that I ran into is people who "know a lot of people who had this kidney/brain/heart problem after getting the vaccine" and therefore if out of all the people they've talked to 50% have a "problem from the clots" then that's a much stronger pattern than the 1 in 100,000 that is often quoted.
This is actually similar to something discussed in the video I linked.

If you get coughed on by someone and get sick that night, you're probably going to think "ah that person coughed on me today, I bet it was them", but in reality it was caused by someone coughing on you two weeks ago and it's only now that it's developed into making you sick. You just don't remember that incident because it was ages ago and nothing happened immediately, so there was no reason to make note of it.
 
Back