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Good point! I'd still like a rule to stop all the nonsense picks at the backend as a safeguard in case certain drafts are unbalanced on the points curve never catches up to the value of top picks. Plus it's just neater for the draft as well.I disagree. If you fix the points curve then it shouldn’t matter what type of picks are used to match it. Picks that are 30 picks after the bid won’t be worth much under an accurate curve.
Cool - that's consistent with my understanding. Thx for the confirmationFirstly, there is no integrity of the bidding system, it's all a farce.
But if it's Dogs 23, Pies 24 and Darcy gets picked at pick 2, then pick 23 gets consumed in paying for pick 2. Pick 24 moves back 1 with the addition of pick 2 to the draft pool, then gets moved forward 1 with pick 23 being taken out of the draft pool, ends up right back at 24.
If the Dogs had 22, 23 and Darcy went pick 2 and both picks got consumed, then the Pies pick 24 absolutely would end up back at 23 as well. Yes in that situation two teams would be using pick 23, but the only way it can be done is to value that pick when the Pies go to use it. Otherwise the opposite would be true, you'd have a draft that went pick 22 then pick 24 and no one would be pick 23 in that draft!
The order and the points of the picks are valued at what they are when they are needed. Hence the Saints coming in to this draft with picks in the 60's trying to match academy players who probably go in the 20's or 30's. They know after the Daicos and Darcy bids consume a stack of picks in the 30's and 40's their picks will move in and be valued as picks in the 50's or even late 40's.
Firstly, there is no integrity of the bidding system, it's all a farce.
But if it's Dogs 23, Pies 24 and Darcy gets picked at pick 2, then pick 23 gets consumed in paying for pick 2. Pick 24 moves back 1 with the addition of pick 2 to the draft pool, then gets moved forward 1 with pick 23 being taken out of the draft pool, ends up right back at 24.
If the Dogs had 22, 23 and Darcy went pick 2 and both picks got consumed, then the Pies pick 24 absolutely would end up back at 23 as well. Yes in that situation two teams would be using pick 23, but the only way it can be done is to value that pick when the Pies go to use it. Otherwise the opposite would be true, you'd have a draft that went pick 22 then pick 24 and no one would be pick 23 in that draft!
The order and the points of the picks are valued at what they are when they are needed. Hence the Saints coming in to this draft with picks in the 60's trying to match academy players who probably go in the 20's or 30's. They know after the Daicos and Darcy bids consume a stack of picks in the 30's and 40's their picks will move in and be valued as picks in the 50's or even late 40's.
I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.Darcy goes at pick 22 and 23 so 23 is used as well as 22.
Pies is still 24 but because Darcy used two picks(if not more), Pies can pick from more players that are left and npt yet picked including presumably Daicos
I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say.
Not sure I understand - In this instance, if Darcy was to go at Pick 22, then Picks 22 and 23 can't be used to match it - as that would mean that the club who bid, also matched! If you mean if Darcy went at 2 and 22 and 23 were used to match, then I believe that Pick 24 would become Pick 23 (back one place for the matched bid and forward two places for the picks used to match the bid) - Noted that 22 and 23 alone can't cover all the points required for a F/S at Pick 2.Darcy goes at pick 22 and 23 so 23 is used as well as 22.
Pies is still 24 but because Darcy used two picks(if not more), Pies can pick from more players that are left and npt yet picked including presumably Daicos
Not sure I understand - In this instance, if Darcy was to go at Pick 22, then Picks 22 and 23 can't be used to match it - as that would mean that the club who bid, also matched! If you mean if Darcy went at 2 and 22 and 23 were used to match, then I believe that Pick 24 would become Pick 23 (back one place for the matched bid and forward two places for the picks used to match the bid) - Noted that 22 and 23 alone can't cover all the points required for a F/S at Pick 2.
Ok - so as I explain, if 22 and 23 are used, then Pick 24 would become Pick 23 - not stay as Pick 24.I believe your wrong and when I say go I am referring to a earlier pick so 22 and 23 as well as others get used for points
Cheers, thanks for clarifying - the nut of the question is not really what the pick is, it's what the points allocated to the pick are. In your example, is the original pick that is part of the match for the Daicos bid worth 465 points (value of the pick at the time of the start of the draft as selection 38) or is the bid worth 483 points (value of the pick at the time that the pick is consumed as selection 37)?
Good point! I'd still like a rule to stop all the nonsense picks at the backend as a safeguard in case certain drafts are unbalanced on the points curve never catches up to the value of top picks. Plus it's just neater for the draft as well.
Why would they??
The Bulldogs or Pies used the picks, they did not go away. Gill or whoever does not call them out because they where used
It also means two picks could be used for the same points which comprising the integrity of the bidding system.
Just say Bulldogs had pick 23 which they do and Pies had pick 24.
Bulldogs bid on earlier selection for Darcy so 23 and its points get used.
Not long after Daicos gets picked and Pies match. Surely Bulldogs and Pies can't use the same points value of 23 for separate bids otherwise the Daicos bid does not recognise the previous Darcy bid. Surely the Daicos bid uses pick 24 points knowing pick 23 points was used on Darcy before and has been used
Great - so that would mean that if a bid for Darcy precedes the bid for Daicos, then the Pies picks would be elevated to backfill the picks used by the Doggies in the matching of the bid - I reckon that would amount to more than 200 additional points than before the matched bid. That would mean that the Pies could trade out Picks 36 and 38!I think if a pick is used twice in separate occasions, they have the same points value on both occasions.
Great - so that would mean that if a bid for Darcy precedes the bid for Daicos, then the Pies picks would be elevated to backfill the picks used by the Doggies in the matching of the bid - I reckon that would amount to more than 200 additional points than before the matched bid. That would mean that the Pies could trade out Picks 36 and 38!
Here's my calcs: the picks add up to 1735 and you need 1787 for a bid on Daics @ 3 - picks 36 and 38 could be traded for a F2 and a late pick to cover the shortfall of 52 points (or the shorfall could be carried into 2022 R1 as a points deficit - the deficit won't matter as they won't lose any 2022 places as a result of a 52 point point deduction) - I'm interested to see what happens with the Pies pick 79 - after the bid match, that would come into Pick 69Yeah I suppose so. I haven’t done the sums but would interested to see them if you have done them.
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I still have very little idea what you're trying to say.If what you say is true the Bulldogs and Pies would trade up not down to claim higher points because just say Pies had pick 2 and bulldogs pick 3.
North picks Daicos and Darcy first before JHF. What your suggesting is even though Bulldogs is pick 3 both Pies and Bulldogs can claim points of pick 2. That is both claim 2517 points instead of 2517 and 2234.
Here is another question.
North have pick one.
They pick Daicos,its matched 2400 points needed.
North still have pick one, they pick Daicos.
Is Bulldogs supposed to match with 2400 or 2014?
Here's my calcs: the picks add up to 1735 and you need 1787 for a bid on Daics @ 3 - picks 36 and 38 could be traded for a F2 and a late pick to cover the shortfall of 52 points (or the shorfall could be carried into 2022 R1 as a points deficit - the deficit won't matter as they won't lose any 2022 places as a result of a 52 point point deduction) - I'm interested to see what happens with the Pies pick 79 - after the bid match, that would come into Pick 69
Pick 40 becomes 39 446 Pick 46 becomes 42 412 Pick 48 becomes 44 362 Pick 55 becomes 50 273 Pick 58 becomes 53 233 Pick 78 becomes 73 9 Total points 1735 Points required to match a bid at 3 - 1787
I've assumed that Pick 23 will be split with either Gee, Syd or WCE for picks - the other picks are: 43, 44 and 45 and some of 52What picks are you assuming are used to match a potential bid for Darcy at pick 2?
I've assumed that Pick 23 will be split with either Gee, Syd or WCE for picks - the other picks are: 43, 44 and 45 and some of 52
Dogs to match 2013.6 points | ||||
Pick start of draft | Pick when matching | Points | Bal | Result |
23 | 23 | Not used | ||
43 | 43 | 378 | 1635.6 | Gone |
44 | 44 | 362 | 1273.6 | Gone |
45 | 45 | 347 | 926.6 | Gone |
52 | 52 | 246 | 680.6 | Gone |
Dogs to match 2013.6 points | ||||
Pick start of draft | Pick when matching | Points | Bal | Result |
23 | 23 | 815 | 1198.6 | Gone |
43 | 43 | 378 | 820.6 | Gone |
44 | 44 | 362 | 458.6 | Gone |
45 | 45 | 347 | 111.6 | Gone |
52 | 52 | 246 | -134.4 | Moved back to around 62 |
Pies to match 1787.2 points | ||||
Pick start of draft | Pick when matching | Points | Bal | Result |
36 | 36 | 502 | Assumed traded out | |
38 | 38 | 465 | 1322.2 | Gone |
40 | 40 | 429 | 893.2 | Gone |
46 | 43 | 378 | 515.2 | Gone |
48 | 45 | 347 | 168.2 | Gone |
55 | 51 | 259 | -90.8 | Moved back to around 65 |
58 | 54 | 220 | Not needed | |
78 | 75 | 0 |
My assumption was that the Doggies will split 23 for two picks in the 30's - so my math is a little different. I've also assumed that the Pies will be prepared to take an insignificant deficit into 2022 R1. If that happens then 38 can be traded out.These are my calculations on a Darcy bid at 2 and a Daicos bid at 3.
Dogs wouldn't have enough points to match without pick 23.
Dogs to match 2013.6 points Pick start of draft Pick when matching Points Bal Result 23 23Not used 43 43 378 1635.6Gone 44 44 362 1273.6Gone 45 45 347 926.6Gone 52 52 246 680.6Gone
So using pick 23.
Dogs to match 2013.6 points Pick start of draft Pick when matching Points Bal Result 23 23 815 1198.6Gone 43 43 378 820.6Gone 44 44 362 458.6Gone 45 45 347 111.6Gone 52 52 246 -134.4Moved back to around 62
I then assumed Pies traded out 36 and so didn't use it to match the bid. I tried to do it after trading 36 and 38, but there wasn't enough points for this.
None of 36, 38 or 40 would change for the pies if the dogs matched a darcy bid at 2. 23 going would be offset by pick 2 pushing picks down. 46 onwards would improve a bit for the pies.
Pies to match 1787.2 points Pick start of draft Pick when matching Points Bal Result 36 36 502Assumed traded out 38 38 465 1322.2Gone 40 40 429 893.2Gone 46 43 378 515.2Gone 48 45 347 168.2Gone 55 51 259 -90.8Moved back to around 65 58 54 220Not needed 78 75 0
My assumption was that the Doggies will split 23 for two picks in the 30's - so my math is a little different. I've also assumed that the Pies will be prepared to take an insignificant deficit into 2022 R1. If that happens then 38 can be traded out.
Dogs to match 2013.6 points | ||||
Pick start of draft | Pick when matching | Points | Bal | Result |
31 | 31 | 606 | 1407.6 | Gone |
39 | 39 | 446 | 961.6 | |
43 | 43 | 378 | 583.6 | Gone |
44 | 44 | 362 | 221.6 | Gone |
45 | 45 | 347 | -125.4 | Moved back to around 62 |
52 | 52 | 246 | Not needed | |
Pies to match 1787.2 points | ||||
Pick start of draft | Pick when matching | Points | Bal | Result |
36 | 36 | 502 | Assumed traded out | |
38 | 38 | 465 | Assumed traded out | |
40 | 39 | 446 | 1341.2 | Gone |
46 | 42 | 395 | 946.2 | Gone |
48 | 44 | 362 | 584.2 | Gone |
55 | 51 | 259 | 325.2 | Gone |
58 | 54 | 220 | 105.2 | Gone |
78 | 75 | 0 | 105.2 point deficit. | |
Deficit would move picks 1-7 back a single spot. | ||||
Deficit would move picks 8-14 back 2 spots. |
That's not what happened last year with Freo's pick. A small deficit doesn't affect your pick in the following year. It has to be larger than the difference in points between your current pick and the next one.Ok, I've redone with those.
I don't think pies will want any deficit. Even the tiniest deficit moves a top pick back a spot. That's assuming that, for example, a 1 point deficit would move a future pick 1 to pick 2. I can't find anything to confirm that this is the case, although I assume that you couldn't have a situation where a club has a deficit and it doesn't result in a change to their future pick.
Pies should be able to avoid a deficit with a bit of draft night trading though.
Dogs to match 2013.6 points Pick start of draft Pick when matching Points Bal Result 31 31 606 1407.6Gone 39 39 446 961.6 43 43 378 583.6Gone 44 44 362 221.6Gone 45 45 347 -125.4Moved back to around 62 52 52 246Not needed Pies to match 1787.2 points Pick start of draft Pick when matching Points Bal Result 36 36 502Assumed traded out 38 38 465Assumed traded out 40 39 446 1341.2Gone 46 42 395 946.2Gone 48 44 362 584.2Gone 55 51 259 325.2Gone 58 54 220 105.2Gone 78 75 0105.2 point deficit. Deficit would move picks 1-7 back a single spot. Deficit would move picks 8-14 back 2 spots.
Regarding the deficit - I'm assured via another thread that a deficit doesn't automatically lead to a shift in pick position. The outcome of the discussion was that as long as your net points total is more than the the next lowest pick's points total, there's no damage - in the instance above, the Pies R1 pick would only be impacted if the Pies finished with Pick 7 or later. Haven't found anything that formally defines the rules.Ok, I've redone with those.
I don't think pies will want any deficit. Even the tiniest deficit moves a top pick back a spot. That's assuming that, for example, a 1 point deficit would move a future pick 1 to pick 2. I can't find anything to confirm that this is the case, although I assume that you couldn't have a situation where a club has a deficit and it doesn't result in a change to their future pick.
Pies should be able to avoid a deficit with a bit of draft night trading though.
Dogs to match 2013.6 points Pick start of draft Pick when matching Points Bal Result 31 31 606 1407.6Gone 39 39 446 961.6 43 43 378 583.6Gone 44 44 362 221.6Gone 45 45 347 -125.4Moved back to around 62 52 52 246Not needed Pies to match 1787.2 points Pick start of draft Pick when matching Points Bal Result 36 36 502Assumed traded out 38 38 465Assumed traded out 40 39 446 1341.2Gone 46 42 395 946.2Gone 48 44 362 584.2Gone 55 51 259 325.2Gone 58 54 220 105.2Gone 78 75 0105.2 point deficit. Deficit would move picks 1-7 back a single spot. Deficit would move picks 8-14 back 2 spots.
Regarding the deficit - I'm assured via another thread that a deficit doesn't automatically lead to a shift in pick position. The outcome of the discussion was that as long as your net points total is more than the the next lowest pick's points total, there's no damage - in the instance above, the Pies R1 pick would only be impacted if the Pies finished with Pick 7 or later. Haven't found anything that formally defines the rules.