Analysis Where are we actually at as a club?

[George]

Reality is if you asked saints supporters what they'd like more:
- the moorabbin redevelopment with all its bells and whistles
- OR a flag where the club was still at seaford and moorabbin was still a sh*t hole.

I reckon almost all would go the flag option.

Moorabbin is there to help you win a flag. It's not the be all and end all. It's not this Mecca that washes away the onfield failings and eclipses the lack of onfield success.

Agree with the rest but nobody has ever once said Moorabbin is the be all and end all.

 

[George]

I'm going to stick my neck out again and say that the Seaford concept wasn't a bad idea it was just so so poorly executed.

When we signed to go to Seaford, it looked exactly like the Dingley Hawks proposition. Vast track of land, heaps of space to expand, freeway about to go in to make access easy.

Then BOOM, the freeway goes in. There's no exit ramp to get to the ground. The ground is locked in between a myriad of suburban streets and a freeway. The ground is literally impossible to get to.

Seems as though our hierarchy didn't check the freeway plans or failed to think it may be a problem.

Imagine having the whole Mornington Peninsula to the Saints. Now we have the Hawks about to build a mega-centre 10 minutes down the road.

I'm sure I will be screamed and howled at for this comment, and will be picked holes out of. But hey I reckon the Mornington Peninsula is one of the best places in the world and it may have been great if the Saints had a stranglehold on it.

Hey! I agree!

 

[sunny3193]

I'm going to stick my neck out again and say that the Seaford concept wasn't a bad idea it was just so so poorly executed.

When we signed to go to Seaford, it looked exactly like the Dingley Hawks proposition. Vast track of land, heaps of space to expand, freeway about to go in to make access easy.

Then BOOM, the freeway goes in. There's no exit ramp to get to the ground. The ground is locked in between a myriad of suburban streets and a freeway. The ground is literally impossible to get to.

Seems as though our hierarchy didn't check the freeway plans or failed to think it may be a problem.

Imagine having the whole Mornington Peninsula to the Saints. Now we have the Hawks about to build a mega-centre 10 minutes down the road.

I'm sure I will be screamed and howled at for this comment, and will be picked holes out of. But hey I reckon the Mornington Peninsula is one of the best places in the world and it may have been great if the Saints had a stranglehold on it.

I’m enjoying you sticking your neck out, because your opinion is generating conversation.
Not that I have been terribly supportive of your arguments to date…..
Anyways.
This is a really interesting proposition.
I was either overseas or heading there and not interested when Seaford was happening so I’m not across the whole debate.
Reading your thoughts I can understand why Seaford would seem so appealing. The Peninsula should be a rich core demographic for the Club.
Owning the Bay from Port Melbourne to Portsea is one of the Club’s stated goals.
But wasn’t the motivation more to do with the poker machines, restrictions being sought by Kingston Council or some locals?
Which seems to me to be where the flaw lies.
The strategy was wrong at the very start.

More connected (at the time) posters would be able to speak with greater authority I guess.

With respect to Hawthorn and their move to Dingley, it is either going to cripple that club for decades or it will be of little impact to St Kilda.
One of those two, hopefully the former.

 

[StFly]

Stepped out the back door this morning almost stepped on a fat 7 foot python.
Jam Tart still palpitating. Placing an urgent call for new second hand underpants.

Growing up, had a garden bed.

Peas, Potato, Lettuce, Tomato, Eastern Brown snake. Shat myself good and proper in my GTFO recoil scrambling. Got the old man who got a long handled shovel and transported him veeery carefully back to the vacant plot of land next to the derelict factory as nice warm metal in nice sunlight just chill mate plz. Later had rando copperhead, didn't get close enough to see which one it was as derr, both lethal to humans so F that.

 

[Saint Watto]

But wasn’t the motivation more to do with the poker machines, restrictions being sought by Kingston Council or some locals?
Which seems to me to be where the flaw lies.
The strategy was wrong at the very start.

Yes it was sunny......looking back....it was a minefield and the prefect storm for trouble.

Here's what I recall off the top of my head.

The original plan(I've got it here somewhere) had the new training facilities where they had always been....and for some reason....and I never heard why....the social club was to be relocated near the cnr of Linton St and South Road.

From memory.....the gaming commission was reluctant to give permission to move the Pokies 100 yards down Linton St.

Adding to this....the Moorabbin City Band hall refused to move.

The biggie on the S&it cake was that some of the Kingston City Councilors wanted the club out of Moorabbin full stop........Greg... someone.....was leading the charge.

As we were broke...as usual.....with all these issues....what do you do when another Bayside council offers to build you a new facility when yr current one is 3rd rate.

You take it.

Originally I think we were going to Frankston oval but huge drainage works and general works were needed which was way too expensive......so Seaford came up and off we went.

Back at Moorabbin...Archie Fraser kept pouring petrol on the funeral Pyre with Kingston Council............it reached flashpoint......I remember him saying..."we're off"

I always believed that we should have waited until the next council elections.......the anti Saints faction may have been tipped out and we could start talks again.

Anyway.....we're back now.

 

[Diehard Saint]

I'm going to stick my neck out again and say that the Seaford concept wasn't a bad idea it was just so so poorly executed.

When we signed to go to Seaford, it looked exactly like the Dingley Hawks proposition. Vast track of land, heaps of space to expand, freeway about to go in to make access easy.

Then BOOM, the freeway goes in. There's no exit ramp to get to the ground. The ground is locked in between a myriad of suburban streets and a freeway. The ground is literally impossible to get to.

Seems as though our hierarchy didn't check the freeway plans or failed to think it may be a problem.

Imagine having the whole Mornington Peninsula to the Saints. Now we have the Hawks about to build a mega-centre 10 minutes down the road.

I'm sure I will be screamed and howled at for this comment, and will be picked holes out of. But hey I reckon the Mornington Peninsula is one of the best places in the world and it may have been great if the Saints had a stranglehold on it.

Just wonder how many of the other fans and members from Bayside and further out would’ve gone down there though. I went about three times from the SE suburbs and it was a real schlep.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Just wonder how many of the other fans and members from Bayside and further out would’ve gone down there though. I went about three times from the SE suburbs and it was a real schlep.

Moorabbin’s already pretty far out from the city. I wish I could get down to watch training more often.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Moorabbin’s already pretty far out from the city. I wish I could get down to watch training more often.

All depends on where you live I guess

 

[gringo2011]

I'm going to stick my neck out again and say that the Seaford concept wasn't a bad idea it was just so so poorly executed.

When we signed to go to Seaford, it looked exactly like the Dingley Hawks proposition. Vast track of land, heaps of space to expand, freeway about to go in to make access easy.

Then BOOM, the freeway goes in. There's no exit ramp to get to the ground. The ground is locked in between a myriad of suburban streets and a freeway. The ground is literally impossible to get to.

Seems as though our hierarchy didn't check the freeway plans or failed to think it may be a problem.

Imagine having the whole Mornington Peninsula to the Saints. Now we have the Hawks about to build a mega-centre 10 minutes down the road.

I'm sure I will be screamed and howled at for this comment, and will be picked holes out of. But hey I reckon the Mornington Peninsula is one of the best places in the world and it may have been great if the Saints had a stranglehold on it.

The scale of it was so humble. It looked like the local footy club rooms. The huge sign that faced the freeway was losing letters within a year and we kept piles of junk and bins along the wall that faced it as well. It looked like a government project where a politician ended up rich and the project didn't look it's value. Somehow you couldn't park within about 3 kilometres of it either.

 

[Mat Mann]

Hi George,

I see you enjoy gas lighting people, not really my cup of tea but each to their own.

Thought forums are places where people with different ideas can come together to discuss for a common goal.

One of our major issues is our development of players. There has not been one team in the last decade win a premiership who has not had their own stand alone reserves side. Sandringham is not working as a place where our talent can improve before coming into the ones.

Our current regime said we were going to have our own standalone VFL team, guess what they flip flopped and didn't do it.

Can you please fact check this statement?

Hawthorn won 4 cups with the BOX HILL Hawks

give me a like George

 

[Mat Mann]

Hi George,

I see you enjoy gas lighting people, not really my cup of tea but each to their own.

Thought forums are places where people with different ideas can come together to discuss for a common goal.

One of our major issues is our development of players. There has not been one team in the last decade win a premiership who has not had their own stand alone reserves side. Sandringham is not working as a place where our talent can improve before coming into the ones.

Our current regime said we were going to have our own standalone VFL team, guess what they flip flopped and didn't do it.

Can you please fact check this statement?

Do you know the reasons why they Flip Flopped? I do, and it's not of StKilda's doing

 

[StFly]

Just wonder how many of the other fans and members from Bayside and further out would’ve gone down there though. I went about three times from the SE suburbs and it was a real schlep.

I went once.

3 trains as yay vline and transit from Southern Cross to Flinders, didn't meet the doors of Seaford though, as didn't feel like getting a cab once landed to actually get to the centre and then back to civilisation with transport or walk the distance since you know, already 2and a bit hours at that point, where's the nearest facilities and food?

Moorabbin, by association, is piss easy and only two trains, when time allows and I've obvious means to get into Melb, no problem taking 2hrs to get there, went with friends when young, went in important events time and went during flag attempt years. Seaford could GAGF though, even if we were still there I'd not be driving it, I mean, I drive to Keysborough enough as it is, stuff going further south to then transit further north west on the way back just for a footy thing with that amoutn of stupid people in cars and Melbourne being stuck now 50 years in the past transit wise.

 

[Mat Mann]

Reality is if you asked saints supporters what they'd like more:
- the moorabbin redevelopment with all its bells and whistles
- OR a flag where the club was still at seaford and moorabbin was still a sh*t hole.

I reckon almost all would go the flag option.

Moorabbin is there to help you win a flag. It's not the be all and end all. It's not this Mecca that washes away the onfield failings and eclipses the lack of onfield success.

Reality is the clubs never had it so good in terms of support by government and the AFL. AFL funding has never been higher. The arms race in terms of buying players and utilising them through football dept spending has also been capped. These historically have been the reasons cited as to why we never got another flag.

$$$ are no longer an excuse. We have the support we need. We have the facilities we need. If we can't get a flag then that's on us. It means we didn't make the right decisions and or didn't have the right people employed at the club.

We need to home in on what decisions have held us back and how we go to that point, so we don't make the same mistakes.

Hopefully they have better systems in place to assess where we are at and how we are tracking against our objectives and what corrective actions need to be implemented to keep us on the critical path to a flag. If we haven't done that then we are cooked, moorabbin or not. $$$ or not. A finals appearance or not.

Yeah, we'd all choose a flag, not 1 person arguing otherwise, but 5 years ago, we were one of the worst clubs on and off-field wise, in Seaford, couldn't get staff and the players hated the joint.
Moorabbin is a tool, you are right, but it's a tool that's helped attract staff AND players, even the journalists get out there for training nowadays.

So in the last 3 years since we've got Moorabbin sorted as a home base, we've significantly reorganized the footy dept, managed to trade in players who we couldn't have dreamed of earlier, where at Seaford we had portables behind the main building for offices and facilities, we've managed to house an entire team worth of women's facilities within the main building, a grandstand, soon to be a pool and extended indoor facilities.

Gringo called it soulless earlier and maybe he's right, I'd love to see a bit more StKilda. A statue of Barker and Frawley out the front door, a little more spirit( very hard to capture though) But as a workplace, no comparison, and that's the point.

also to note that we play AFL(preseason) AFLW and VFL(some games) all at Moorabbin.

But the Pies, Hawks, Essendon, Melbourne have all changed bases in the last 20 years without losing the essence of what they are.

 

[Mat Mann]

Yes it was sunny......looking back....it was a minefield and the prefect storm for trouble.

Here's what I recall off the top of my head.

The original plan(I've got it here somewhere) had the new training facilities where they had always been....and for some reason....and I never heard why....the social club was to be relocated near the cnr of Linton St and South Road.

From memory.....the gaming commission was reluctant to give permission to move the Pokies 100 yards down Linton St.

Adding to this....the Moorabbin City Band hall refused to move.

The biggie on the S&it cake was that some of the Kingston City Councilors wanted the club out of Moorabbin full stop........Greg... someone.....was leading the charge.

As we were broke...as usual.....with all these issues....what do you do when another Bayside council offers to build you a new facility when yr current one is 3rd rate.

You take it.

Originally I think we were going to Frankston oval but huge drainage works and general works were needed which was way too expensive......so Seaford came up and off we went.

Back at Moorabbin...Archie Fraser kept pouring petrol on the funeral Pyre with Kingston Council............it reached flashpoint......I remember him saying..."we're off"

I always believed that we should have waited until the next council elections.......the anti Saints faction may have been tipped out and we could start talks again.

Anyway.....we're back now.

Pretty sure they wanted the social club down near the bowls club, you know, to tap into those retirement funds.......

 

[Ricmel]

I'm going to stick my neck out again and say that the Seaford concept wasn't a bad idea it was just so so poorly executed.

When we signed to go to Seaford, it looked exactly like the Dingley Hawks proposition. Vast track of land, heaps of space to expand, freeway about to go in to make access easy.

I don’t think I am mistaken ~ we did not own the land at Seaford. Hawks own Dingley freehold, no debt. It is a huge land bank for them and the model is classic ”if we build it they will come”. They are making their own asset considerably more valuable.

it is nothing like Saints at Seaford.

 

[jwikked]

I don’t think I am mistaken ~ we did not own the land at Seaford. Hawks own Dingley freehold, no debt. It is a huge land bank for them and the model is classic ”if we build it they will come”. They are making their own asset considerably more valuable.

it is nothing like Saints at Seaford.

Don’t own the land now, either.

 

[sunny3193]

Don’t own the land now, either.

Neither does the majority of AFL clubs.
Perhaps Essendon, Bulldogs and Hawthorn (post Dingley) are the only Victorian teams to own their facilities outright.
West Coast and perhaps Port interstate might be the others.
Leaving more than two thirds that don’t.

 

[MordySaint]

Nope no gaslighting, dealing in fact and trying to educate because the points you make are not as applicable as you think they are in today's football.

Forums are also places where opinions can be disagreed upon and opposing views can be argued by providing examples and facts to make said view. This is what I am doing. You are providing an argument based in little truth and lots of personal belief and I am showing you how your views do not align to the current football climate.

Why do you keep changing the subject and bringing up other points in which we have not discussed? We've never spoken about VFL alignment, what does that have to do with what we were discussing?

If you want to bring it up let's discuss it then. No team without a standalone side has won a flag in the last 10 years?

2013 - Hawthorn (Box Hill)
2014 - Hawthorn (Box Hill)
2015 - Hawthorn (Box Hill)
2018 - West Coast (East Perth)
2021 - Melbourne (Casey)

Just do a few minutes of research next time.

Thanks George,

I'm the first to admit when I am a wrong, and you are correct I didn't go into the T&C's of the set up between the clubs and their alliance with VFL sides. So I am incorrect.

But I normally go by the Duck Test in life - " If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. "

Box Hill Hawks

Same colours
Same jumper - minor difference to Hawthorn
Same theme song - minor difference to Hawthorn
Same name - minor difference to Hawthorn
Same Logo - - minor differences to Hawthorn

Casey Demons

Same colours
Same jumper - minor difference to Melbourne
Same theme song - minor difference to Melbourne
Same name - minor difference to Melbourne
Same Logo - - minor differences to Melbourne

I wouldn't be surprised in a year or two if you see the final piece of the puzzle change and they become full standalones. They are very close, don't you think.

There is nothing in common between St Kilda and Sandringham. Other than our players are dropped from the ones to play there. I have even seen players go to Frankston because they can't get a game at Sandringham. Imagine an AFL player not given a game in the reserves, has to beg for a game at another club.

I've watched St Kilda players after the game at Sandringham not even know the club song and stand there dumbfounded.

Not very inspiring and not really ideal.

Let hope the club can address this make Sandringham a great place for our players to improve their football at.

 

[sunny3193]

Yeah, we'd all choose a flag, not 1 person arguing otherwise, but 5 years ago, we were one of the worst clubs on and off-field wise, in Seaford, couldn't get staff and the players hated the joint.
Moorabbin is a tool, you are right, but it's a tool that's helped attract staff AND players, even the journalists get out there for training nowadays.

So in the last 3 years since we've got Moorabbin sorted as a home base, we've significantly reorganized the footy dept, managed to trade in players who we couldn't have dreamed of earlier, where at Seaford we had portables behind the main building for offices and facilities, we've managed to house an entire team worth of women's facilities within the main building, a grandstand, soon to be a pool and extended indoor facilities.

Gringo called it soulless earlier and maybe he's right, I'd love to see a bit more StKilda. A statue of Barker and Frawley out the front door, a little more spirit( very hard to capture though) But as a workplace, no comparison, and that's the point.

also to note that we play AFL(preseason) AFLW and VFL(some games) all at Moorabbin.

But the Pies, Hawks, Essendon, Melbourne have all changed bases in the last 20 years without losing the essence of what they are.

Actually, I wouldn’t choose that flag.
I prefer to take the longer view, have the Club set up properly and professionally.
Which is what Moorabbin is all about, as you rightly point out.
We do that, then we can be reasonably confident that the basis for longer term success is in place.
I would much rather forego one flag now for multiple flags in the future.
Wouldn’t you?
What Finnis and the Summers/Bassat boards have achieved there is truly jaw dropping.
And the build is yet to be finished.

If gringo2011 called Moorabbin soulless, I would strongly disagree with him.

The preseason game against Hawthorn last year, the crowd, the atmosphere, the huge smile on my face walking down Linton Street, the crowd involvement, the cries of “Ball”, all of that and more.

The place isn’t soulless.

On the contrary, it’s home.

 

[gringo2011]

Actually, I wouldn’t choose that flag.
I prefer to take the longer view, have the Club set up properly and professionally.
Which is what Moorabbin is all about, as you rightly point out.
We do that, then we can be reasonably confident that the basis for longer term success is in place.
I would much rather forego one flag now for multiple flags in the future.
Wouldn’t you?
What Finnis and the Summers/Bassat boards have achieved there is truly jaw dropping.
And the build is yet to be finished.

If gringo2011 called Moorabbin soulless, I would strongly disagree with him.

The preseason game against Hawthorn last year, the crowd, the atmosphere, the huge smile on my face walking down Linton Street, the crowd involvement, the cries of “Ball”, all of that and more.

The place isn’t soulless.

On the contrary, it’s home.

My dream is for a dynasty side too....but that said I'd take the Bulldogs style lucky win. It would take the monkey off our backs and probably release the pressure to do it all in a more systematic way....which is what the Dogs have done.

Moorabin isn't what it was, it's a great facility but it doesn't feel like the same place other than being in exactly the same place as the old club was. We need a modern professional set up but even at the time I suggested we try to incorporate some of the old place into the new place. If I was a young player coming into the place I'd be confident that I was playing for a professional set up but I would have no idea about anything of the past except for a few pictures of ex players.

I get we haven't got much of a past as far as a awards and premierships but the connection to the club is why I buy my memberships. It's a really hard balancing act to bring in new people while keeping the old people feeling part of the place. The Dogs do it very well coming from a similar place.

I agree it isn't soulless because it's a good environment but it's more Chadstone than Brunswick Street.

 

[George]

I'm the first to admit when I am a wrong

The trouble is that you don't know if you are or not. Some of the stuff you have said over the last few days is wildly inaccurate, you seem to be speaking from your own personal experience and not in actual fact.

I wouldn't be surprised in a year or two if you see the final piece of the puzzle change and they become full standalones. They are very close, don't you think.

What evidence do you have to suggest you can see it happening in a year or two. Hawthorn have been affiliated with Box Hill since 2001. Melbourne have been with Casey since 2009. Before that, it was us that were affiliated with them. If they were going to become standalone, they would've done it by now.

There is nothing in common between St Kilda and Sandringham. Other than our players are dropped from the ones to play there. I have even seen players go to Frankston because they can't get a game at Sandringham. Imagine an AFL player not given a game in the reserves, has to beg for a game at another club. I've watched St Kilda players after the game at Sandringham not even know the club song and stand there dumbfounded. Not very inspiring and not really ideal. Let hope the club can address this make Sandringham a great place for our players to improve their football at.

This is getting quite frustrating.

Our alignment with Sandringham is as strong as it's ever been, educate yourself on it. You've seen players go to Frankston because they can't get a game at Sandringham? If they aren't St.Kilda listed players then why does it honestly matter? And if they are then you must be only talking about Lewis Pierce because he's the only listed St.Kilda player that played there and isn't it obvious why that was? He plays in the ruck. We had depth playing ruck at Sandringham. Adam Skrobalak was coaching our rucks and also head coach at Frankston in 2018. Don't you think it's beneficial for him to work out an arrangement that gets him the valuable development he requires. Or do you suggest we rotate two or three rucks at Sandringham each week to the detriment of all rucks.

Senior players coming back from injury or going back for form don't know every word of the club song of the reserves side. Shocking. What are you concerned about it for? It happens at every single reserves side with players who don't play in the reserves often. I thought this was common sense.

With all due respect - do some research.

 

[George]

Actually, I wouldn’t choose that flag.
I prefer to take the longer view, have the Club set up properly and professionally.
Which is what Moorabbin is all about, as you rightly point out.
We do that, then we can be reasonably confident that the basis for longer term success is in place.
I would much rather forego one flag now for multiple flags in the future.
Wouldn’t you?
What Finnis and the Summers/Bassat boards have achieved there is truly jaw dropping.
And the build is yet to be finished.

If gringo2011 called Moorabbin soulless, I would strongly disagree with him.

The preseason game against Hawthorn last year, the crowd, the atmosphere, the huge smile on my face walking down Linton Street, the crowd involvement, the cries of “Ball”, all of that and more.

The place isn’t soulless.

On the contrary, it’s home.

Great post

 

[MordySaint]

....

This is getting quite frustrating.

....

With all due respect - do some research.

Not sure why you are getting frustrated, I am just stating an opinion. You replied to my comment in verbose, so I gave you my indepth thoughts on the subject.

Please don't take it to heart.

The name of the thread is "Where are we at as a club?" - surely this must encompass discussion on our alignment with our VFL side. Other posters have stated that our alliance with Sandringham isn't good... why does my opinion cause such animosity.

 

[Joffaboy]

Yes it was sunny......looking back....it was a minefield and the prefect storm for trouble.

Here's what I recall off the top of my head.

The original plan(I've got it here somewhere) had the new training facilities where they had always been....and for some reason....and I never heard why....the social club was to be relocated near the cnr of Linton St and South Road.

From memory.....the gaming commission was reluctant to give permission to move the Pokies 100 yards down Linton St.

Adding to this....the Moorabbin City Band hall refused to move.

The biggie on the S&it cake was that some of the Kingston City Councilors wanted the club out of Moorabbin full stop........Greg... someone.....was leading the charge.

As we were broke...as usual.....with all these issues....what do you do when another Bayside council offers to build you a new facility when yr current one is 3rd rate.

You take it.

Originally I think we were going to Frankston oval but huge drainage works and general works were needed which was way too expensive......so Seaford came up and off we went.

Back at Moorabbin...Archie Fraser kept pouring petrol on the funeral Pyre with Kingston Council............it reached flashpoint......I remember him saying..."we're off"

I always believed that we should have waited until the next council elections.......the anti Saints faction may have been tipped out and we could start talks again.

Anyway.....we're back now.

Exactly on how I remember it, and reckon you are correct, the sticking point was that the club wanted more visibility of the Social Club on the South Rd corner, not tucked away on Linton St.

We wanted to move from 83 to 100 pokies but was knocked back, so said OK we will move the 83 pokies up the road, council and local nimby's wanted the club out.

The council regretted the decision and the anti club clowns were voted out. When the Saints started to make noise about coming back, the council fell over themselves to help, don't know the details at all but apparently it is a big thing to have an AFL football club's training and social club facilities in your LGA.

It was a poor move to Seaford, but the current admin was between a rock and a hard place. The Linton St facilities were literally falling down, and the council wouldn't help, the Seaford facilities were excellent but was soulless and basically not St.Kilda.

 

[George]

Not sure why you are getting frustrated, I am just stating an opinion. You replied to my comment in verbose, so I gave you my indepth thoughts on the subject.

Please don't take it to heart.

The name of the thread is "Where are we at as a club?" - surely this must encompass discussion on our alignment with our VFL side. Other posters have stated that our alliance with Sandringham isn't good... why does my opinion cause such animosity.

I'm not taking anything to heart. You opened the conversation with me. You told me what I was saying was incorrect. It isn't, the information is out there. You can have an opinion but understand when your opinion is just incorrect. Factually incorrect. You have said;

* We are a top 5 supported club in Melbourne (We are 6th in Melbourne, 7th in Victoria).

* The administration has disenfranchised it's supporters (yet we've broken our club membership in each of the last 5 seasons - two of them in seasons with no crowds).

* We've pandered to the AFL (whilst completely disregarding the financial position and favoritism by way of the fixture of the clubs you said didn't pander - Collingwood, Essendon, Carlton, Richmond, and disregarding the comparisons between stadium deals/revenue).

* Insinuating we need to bring in a former player to coach us because it worked once (whilst leaving out 29 other former players that have coached us and ultimately failed, not to mention the history league wide of some of the greatest coaches ever not having played at the club they won premierships for - Clarkson, Hardwick, Malthouse, Matthews).

* One side in the last 10 years have won a premiership without a standalone side (It's actually 5 of the last 10).

* Saying that our partnership with Sandringham is completely different to basically part ownership that Hawthorn and Melbourne have (It actually is, we signed a deal with Sandringham a few years ago as they were on their knees ready to fold. New deal gave us basic ownership of the club. Melbourne have had a very public disconnect between themselves and Casey - it is not all rosy)

* Claiming in a year or two Melbourne and Hawthorn will merge their VFL affiliates with their own standalone club (They have been affiliated for 22 and 13 years respectively, if they were to do it it'd be done already. If Hawthorn wouldn't do it after winning 4 flags under Clarkson then why do it now).


There's one thing I have agreed with you on over the last few days and I have told you I agreed. The stuff above is just wrong. Not opinion, just flat out wrong. I'm happy to keep the conversation going - you wanted to open up dialogue with me and I am happy to respond, but when you make factually incorrect statements then I'll say it. You say it's your opinion but you are speaking as if it's fact. It just isn't.