Rumour And they say Footballers are dumb - got nothing on their WAGs

[carloss]

Reality bites.

Do you think deaths in custody would get a little more traction if it was 470+ white guys from the streets of Melbourne being found dead in their cells since 1991?

And yeah, when one group of people are continually overlooked, walked over and forgotten it’s damn right that we should be starting a sh*t fight about the disparity every time we see it.

In the period 1990 - 2004. 145 Indigenous people died in custody and 627 Non-Indigenous.
Is that point you are trying to make?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Valid point she made but a stupid time to express it.

I'm not sure. Gabby Petito's Dad made the same point, in that all missing persons should be getting the same coverage and effort. No better time than in the midst of it when people are listening.

 

[HairyO]

Reality bites.

Do you think deaths in custody would get a little more traction if it was 470+ white guys from the streets of Melbourne being found dead in their cells since 1991?

And yeah, when one group of people are continually overlooked, walked over and forgotten it’s damn right that we should be starting a sh*t fight about the disparity every time we see it.

As a % more non-Aboriginal people die in custody that Aboriginal. Also, the deaths in custody includes illness, not just neglect/brutality.

 

[Lampers]

In the period 1990 - 2004. 145 Indigenous people died in custody and 627 Non-Indigenous.
Is that point you are trying to make?

This is not meant to trivialise it, but I run an operational analytics team. In a population of 50 overdue projects, they are all overdue. But the circumstances of each are unique, and there’s no simple answer to avoid them in the future. There are many different things that need to change to eliminate overdue projects.

What I like here is you’ve brought the other side of the absolute numbers, being non-indigenous deaths in custody.

The proportions are still miles out of whack with the proportion of the indigenous population. So there is something that still makes it far more likely an indigenous person will die in custody than a non indigenous person when we look at the general population.

For some (not you) to say “It’s racism” and that’s the reason is lazy. Someone just quoting an absolute number without any context (again, not you) is either lazy, or pushing an agenda.

How many of these deaths are in a jail cell? How many of these deaths are during an apprehension attempt? How many are at the hands of cell mates? How many are suicide? How many are natural causes? How many have suspicious circumstances? Is the proportion reflective of the general “in custody” population?

Clearly police have a bias to cover up their own illegal or irresponsible behaviour, so a police view alone is insufficient.

 

[Santana]

I'm not sure. Gabby Petito's Dad made the same point, in that all issuing persons should be getting the same coverage and effort. No better time than in the midst of it when people are listening.

That's not possible for every case to get the same coverage that case and Cleo's case got.

Do you think deaths in custody would get a little more traction if it was 470+ white guys from the streets of Melbourne being found dead in their cells since 1991?

No one would care.

 

[lollol]

Missing white kids do get more police resources than missing Indigenous kids if you look at the facts.
It's called institutional racism, you may of heard of that before.

Show me the legislation, regulation, SOP, training that specifically discriminates against aboriginal people. They don't exist.

I'm sure there are racists within institutions, but that is not institutional racism.

 

[lollol]

In reference to the perception that Aboriginal people have recently been mistreated in custody.

This is my experience formally working for correction Victoria for 6.5 years (so only relates to Victoria). Yes, I recognise it is anecdotal.

Through my time working for this organisation, I never saw a misuse of force/treatment, based upon reasons of ethnicity. Force is used in specific circumstance (including apprehensions, violent incidents etc) in line with the crimes act, regulations etc. The day to day treatment of aboriginal prisoners by correctional staff was no different to any other ethnic group.

However intuitionally, I did see that prisoners from Aboriginal backgrounds get greater access to legal support, psychological support, programs, recreational activities, phone calls, visits, social services, disciplinary treatment, funeral escorts, special BBQs for NAIDOC week, health services, financial benefits from koori art programs and a myriad of other forms of special treatment. Access to these services was far above the treatment other prisoner received. Subsequently, Prisoners would often identify as being aboriginal to obtain these services.

 

[Slartibartfast]

What about the facts on resources spent on children (irrespective of race) from the same socioeconomic profile?

Is it a socioeconomic/privilege thing (which in Australia does favour specific demographics for many, many reason), or a racial thing?

I don’t know the answer, but would like to see facts.

There are missing kids (left their home of their own free will) and missing kids (kidnapped) - the scenarios are very different.

There is far too much over simplifying and conflating different things to be the same to support an agenda.

Some are conflating stolen generation (government policy, right or wrong) with an individual committing a kidnap. Ludicrous comparison.

The trouble with you wanting data is like andrew Bolt wanting to see proof like birth certificates to verify stolen children last century , that documentation does not exist.
You want data before you will accept it is happening , well in these remote areas this kind of info is not collected religiously and promulgated.

Your white world has that detail but remote areas do not.

 

[ferrisb]

I know had the little girl been black, aboriginal, half cast, indian, asian, whatever I think 99% of people would have felt the same emotions they did with her.

I think the point is we never would have heard about it if the little girl been black, aboriginal, half cast, indian, asian, whatever...

 

[Lampers]

The trouble with you wanting data is like andrew Bolt wanting to see proof like birth certificates to verify stolen children last century , that documentation does not exist.
You want data before you will accept it is happening , well in these remote areas this kind of info is not collected religiously and promulgated.

Your white world has that detail but remote areas do not.

Well then, I guess we are stuffed as it’s all just words and feelings in that case.

There is masses of data on many of these things, not all, but many.

Lazy people and journalists can’t be bothered using them, or are driving an agenda.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

That's not possible for every case to get the same coverage that case and Cleo's case got.

Then why did their cases get that sort of coverage? How do they choose?

That's the point being made. Care about all of them.

For the record I followed both of those cases and have been devastated and exhilarated in equal measure. I don't begrudge them one second of the coverage they got.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Well then, I guess we are stuffed as it’s all just words and feelings in that case.

Yeah , no detailed proof to your liking so that means it doesn’t exist. Pathetic.
It is known and understood, remote communities complain about the lack of response but it falls on deaf ears.

I understand what Jesinta was saying, that it’s important that all victims get the same response,” said Mr Jubelin.

“I have to say in the past, with Bowraville, that it was clear to me that because the victims were Aboriginal, and also socioeconomic factors come into play, that they were in the lower socioeconomic group, that they didn’t get the resources supplied initially. The ramifications of which play out to this day.”

Cop on ‘racism’ in missing kid cases

Hours after missing four-year-old Cleo Smith was found, model Jesinta Franklin, 30, who’s married to Indigenous AFL star Lance Franklin, posted to Instagram about a “disparity” in how the missing person cases of Indigenous children compared to those of white children.

www.news.com.au

 

[matthew_s]

I think the point is we never would have heard about it if the little girl been black, aboriginal, half cast, indian, asian, whatever...

You really think that the only reason this made the media was because Cleo was white?

Guarantee, in this 24x7 social media newscycle environment, any 4 yr old child is abducted in the same circumstances it's making the news cycle.

You are delusional if you think otherwise.

 

[ferrisb]

You really think that the only reason this made the media was because Cleo was white?

Guarantee, in this 24x7 social media newscycle environment, any 4 yr old child is abducted in the same circumstances it's making the news cycle.

You are delusional if you think otherwise.

If you think the media doesn't take optics and the likelihood of a story going viral into account, then you're the delusional one.

When was the last time you saw a news story of an old fat bloke that went missing. Now compare that against a kid or a young lady going missing.

How about a pretty bride being murdered on her honeymoon? Seen a few of those. They make international news. Now think how often you've seen enduring stories of an ugly lady in her 60s dying from domestic violence...

I'm not saying the media is racist or sexist per se. But there are abundant biases in the media; based on age, looks, gender, race, geography, socio-economic background etc

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

In reference to the perception that Aboriginal people have recently been mistreated in custody.

This is my experience formally working for correction Victoria for 6.5 years (so only relates to Victoria). Yes, I recognise it is anecdotal.

Through my time working for this organisation, I never saw a misuse of force/treatment, based upon reasons of ethnicity. Force is used in specific circumstance (including apprehensions, violent incidents etc) in line with the crimes act, regulations etc. The day to day treatment of aboriginal prisoners by correctional staff was no different to any other ethnic group.

However intuitionally, I did see that prisoners from Aboriginal backgrounds get greater access to legal support, psychological support, programs, recreational activities, phone calls, visits, social services, disciplinary treatment, funeral escorts, special BBQs for NAIDOC week, health services, financial benefits from koori art programs and a myriad of other forms of special treatment. Access to these services was far above the treatment other prisoner received. Subsequently, Prisoners would often identify as being aboriginal to obtain these services.

And yet they have a life expectancy 20 years lower than whites and have a whole stolen generation of broken families and broken culture and massive cultural differences that prison guards don't know about.
They are also disproportionally jailed, die in custody as a % of population more than whites, and have to deal with racist cops and I'm sure some racist prison guards.
Did Gary Dungay need 7 guards to restrain him for eating a biscuit? He was choked to death whilst saying he couldn't breath and no serious charges for the hero guards.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Well then, I guess we are stuffed as it’s all just words and feelings in that case.

There is masses of data on many of these things, not all, but many.

Lazy people and journalists can’t be bothered using them, or are driving an agenda.

Where's the data?

 

[Sea fog]

Reality bites.

Do you think deaths in custody would get a little more traction if it was 470+ white guys from the streets of Melbourne being found dead in their cells since 1991?

And yeah, when one group of people are continually overlooked, walked over and forgotten it’s damn right that we should be starting a sh*t fight about the disparity every time we see it.

Despite this it was reported this week that a non-indigenous person is more likely to die in a cell than an indigenous person.

 

[Lampers]

Yeah , no detailed proof to your liking so that means it doesn’t exist. Pathetic.
It is known and understood, remote communities complain about the lack of response but it falls on deaf ears.

I understand what Jesinta was saying, that it’s important that all victims get the same response,” said Mr Jubelin.

“I have to say in the past, with Bowraville, that it was clear to me that because the victims were Aboriginal, and also socioeconomic factors come into play, that they were in the lower socioeconomic group, that they didn’t get the resources supplied initially. The ramifications of which play out to this day.”

Cop on ‘racism’ in missing kid cases

Hours after missing four-year-old Cleo Smith was found, model Jesinta Franklin, 30, who’s married to Indigenous AFL star Lance Franklin, posted to Instagram about a “disparity” in how the missing person cases of Indigenous children compared to those of white children.

www.news.com.au

“It is known and understood…” is your opinion.

A piece of journalism that quotes a former police officer that starts with “I have to say…” is not an example of investigation or good journalism, it’s recording and repeating an opinion.

I have seen people respond in surveys with verbatim that is patently untrue or absurd, yet I’m sure they believe it’s true or at least reflects how they felt about their experience.

This is not to say that racism doesn’t happen, it clearly does (and has done for millennia and will continue to), I’m saying a few anecdotes and opinions are not compelling to illustrate the scale of a problem.

 

[Lampers]

Where's the data?

Statistics

www.abs.gov.au

https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/sr/sr36

That took two minutes to find.

A decent journalist would look into those sets of data and look for unusual correlations - that will get closer to why we see outcomes we see.

Data analytics 101.

Emotive quotes get more clicks.

 

[1970crow]

How is that dumb? It is pointing out that we still have racism in Australia and if Cleo was not white perhaps there would not have been the same media coverage or police resources in the case.

total and utter rubbish. Not the racism bit, obviously racists still exist here, like they do everywhere. But suggesting an indigenous kid gett8ng abducted would have been different is totally moronic.

 

[lollol]

And yet they have a life expectancy 20 years lower than whites and have a whole stolen generation of broken families and broken culture and massive cultural differences that prison guards don't know about.
They are also disproportionally jailed, die in custody as a % of population more than whites, and have to deal with racist cops and I'm sure some racist prison guards.
Did Gary Dungay need 7 guards to restrain him for eating a biscuit? He was choked to death whilst saying he couldn't breath and no serious charges for the hero guards.

Not sure what any of this has to do with my experience in the correctional system in Victoria. I pointed out a custodial system that gives more privilege to Aboriginal people based upon race.

Ill engage with you on your statements.

1 . “Yet, they have a life expectancy 20 years lower”. you need to state why they have a 20 year lower life expectancy and how this relates to issues of discrimination.

2. I don’t think you have the first idea on what happens inside a prison (other than Shawshank redemption). You have zero insight and have actively avoided speaking about an actual example that i have show above of institutionalised favouritism towards a race (ironic since you mentioned it in a previous post).

3. “Disproportionately jailed” why? Show me proof the judiciary persecutes aboriginals? aboriginals have the koori court system and have free access to quality legal representation on the basis of race, through the aboriginal legal service. People go to jail, because they commit crimes.

4. “Disproportionately, Die is custody as a percentage compare to white” why? You know this include all types of deaths and aboriginal have a shorter life expectancy on average? Do you think this may contribute to the numbers? have you analysed the data to show that this disparity of death is due to reasons of discrimination. Are you sure your statistic is accurate?

5. Garry Dungay died of positional asphyxia, due to correctional issues of negligence, not from being “choked”. They perceived a health risk, due to his diabetes (whether wrongly or rightly) and had a duty of care to respond. You lied about this to suit your narrative. The NSW corrections failed its duty of care to a human being, because they were incompetent, not because he was aboriginal. The guy could have been any other ethnicity. Police said it wasn't suspicious, coroner said it wasn't suspicious. You need to prove that his death was a result of him being mistreated, based upon race. It is disingenuous at best to claim that his death was racially based.

 

[Tim Evans Beard]

Statistics

www.abs.gov.au

https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/sr/sr36

That took two minutes to find.

A decent journalist would look into those sets of data and look for unusual correlations - that will get closer to why we see outcomes we see.

Data analytics 101.

Emotive quotes get more clicks.

1 avoidable instance of mistreatment due to race is 1 too many for me.

What is the numerical threshold based on current populations and incarceration rates for you?

 

[Tim Evans Beard]

Any data here suggesting being bashed to death in the street by police is a proportional response:

John Peter Pat (1966–1983), Aboriginal youth, was born on 31 October 1966 at Roebourne, Western Australia, eldest of three children of Mavis Pat, an Aboriginal domestic worker. Len Walley, a labourer, was his father. John spent his early childhood on Mount Florence station, in Fortescue River country, with an extended family steeped in Yindjibarndi culture. When he was 9, Mavis, her partner Mick Lee and the children moved to Roebourne and settled on the reserve. He attended the local school. The reserve closed in 1975 and the community was forcibly relocated to the 'Aboriginal village', a State Housing Commission project. Families, compelled to live side by side with people of other Indigenous cultures, fragmented, and the village became a place of tensions. Alcohol abuse was widespread and the police conducted frequent patrols. On leaving school Pat worked for two months as a station hand on Pyramid station. Back at Roebourne and unemployed, he was soon abusing alcohol. At 14 he was found guilty of assaulting a police officer and at 15 he was convicted again, for the same offence. He was brought before the local Magistrate’s Court on several occasions on charges relating to liquor.

 

[Lampers]

1 avoidable instance of mistreatment due to race is 1 too many for me.

What is the numerical threshold based on current populations and incarceration rates for you?

Zero should be the goal for mistreatment due to race, but only those living in fantasy land would think that’s realistic given human history.

In a perfect fantasy world, there is no incarceration because nobody does anything anti-social.

In the real world, you’d hope to see statistically similar distributions of incarceration no matter what ways you cut identities. It’s also highly unlikely to happen, but that should be the aim, and then you’d examine what is behind the material outliers.

Right now men are incarcerated at far higher rates than women. Should we incarcerate more women, or fewer men?

 

[Tim Evans Beard]

Right now men are incarcerated at far higher rates than women. Should we incarcerate more women, or fewer men?

We should apply the law equally to all and consequence equally for all.

It’s almost like you have an agenda to pursue for unequal treatment to create a mathematically agreeable data set.

Those arguing with you aren’t asking for preferential treatment - they are seeking the end of it.