Analysis Where does Buddy Franklin rank amongst the greats?

[gbatman]

Imagine Franklin playing in the 80s and 90s when football was more open, higher scoring and individuals often kicked 100. Would have been a sight to see.

 

[Scotland]

You have to rate Franklin like you'd rate a bowler, not a batsman. He plays in an era that works against being an all time great, at least in terms of goals kicked. Kicking 1,000 is like taking 500 wickets @ 20, not scoring 5000 runs @ 50.

Franklin has kicked 995 goals @ just over 3 a game. His best seasons he's been a 3, 3 1/2 goal a game player who also gets 15-20 touches a game. With the exception of 2008 which is such a statistical outlier it looks like a misprint.

The most comparable great is probably Carey who played CHF when FF and CHF were true positions. Carey got more of the ball, took more marks and was a better contested mark but kicked 250 fewer goals was never really challenging for the Coleman which Franklin was won 4 times. Franklin has kicked more goals than any of his contemporaries and it's only Nick Riewoldt on the same level for impact around the ground and he had one 3+ goal a game season.

If Franklin played in the era of Lockett and Dunstall the way they played he could've easily still kicked 1,000+ but wouldn't have got as much of the ball as a stay at home FF. As he's not great overhead I imagine he would've been pigenholed as a FF rather than a CHF. Either way he would've been a gun in any era.

 

[HairyO]

Imagine Franklin playing in the 80s and 90s when football was more open, higher scoring and individuals often kicked 100. Would have been a sight to see.

Or he would have weighed 140 kilos.

Imagine Hudson in 2021 when even touching a forward gets a free kick and any contact in a marking content gets a free kick, plus, his knee reco would have meant 1 season out of football, not 6 seasons out of football. And he wouldnt have been concussed half a dozen times a year from talentless flog defenders punching him in the head.

 

[Scotland]

Imagine Franklin playing in the 80s and being relentlessly racially abused by VFL fans...

 

[RUNVS]

Or he would have weighed 140 kilos.

Imagine Hudson in 2021 when even touching a forward gets a free kick and any contact in a marking content gets a free kick, plus, his knee reco would have meant 1 season out of football, not 6 seasons out of football. And he wouldnt have been concussed half a dozen times a year from talentless flog defenders punching him in the head.

188cm. He wouldn't be a key forward in 2021.

 

[BuddyHawk]

I find Buddy a hard one to assess, as he has a couple of obvious weaknesses in his game, like other posters have noted (no right foot, plus average overhead marking ability - although this has improved over the journey). By contrast, the other great key forwards of the AFL era - Carey, Lockett, Ablett Snr and Dunstall - were genuinely two-footed players who had terrific hands.

But Buddy is so supremely gifted in other facets of the game, that I do believe he ranks up there with the very best. His ability to roost a goal from outside 50 is close to unprecedented (with honourable mentions to Blight and Ablett Snr, among others), and I’ve never seen anyone who kicks goals in such a variety of ways. His trademark ability to rove the ball, use his strength to fend off a couple of tackles and snap a goal from the 50m arc - something he has probably done 150-200 times - is a thing of beauty.

And as others have mentioned, his speed and ability to get up the ground -especially pre-2018, when I feel he maybe lost half a yard - sets him apart from most forwards. I still get goosebumps watching those two running goals against the Bombers in 2010, only 5 or so minutes apart.

In summary, while he’s not as complete a player as the other four AFL-era greats I mentioned, I do feel he has been - in his unique Buddy way - equally effective. I’d maybe have Ablett Snr slightly ahead, as he was similarly versatile but with no discernible weakness.

In terms of VFL/AFL history - while I wasn’t alive to see Coleman, Hudson, Pratt, Coventry etc - I feel he probably belongs in the best 10-15 forwards of all time. I reckon it’s too hard to compare him to the best mids and defenders.

 

[RUNVS]

I personally see Buddy as the best player of this era.

I know others will say "Well that is Gary Ablett Jnr" and they would have a reasonable case, I would argue that the gap between Ablett Jnr and the likes of Judd, or perhaps Martin is not that great in the grand scheme of things. If you missed out on Ablett and had Judd you would not exactly be upset. Buddy though, he wasn't just the best key forward of the era, he was easily the best key forward of the era. If you had to settle for the second or third best key forward of the era then that really is a step down on Buddy's quality.

 

[PhatBoy]

I personally see Buddy as the best player of this era.

I know others will say "Well that is Gary Ablett Jnr" and they would have a reasonable case, I would argue that the gap between Ablett Jnr and the likes of Judd, or perhaps Martin is not that great in the grand scheme of things. If you missed out on Ablett and had Judd you would not exactly be upset. Buddy though, he wasn't just the best key forward of the era, he was easily the best key forward of the era. If you had to settle for the second or third best key forward of the era then that really is a step down on Buddy's quality.

Not untrue but that doesn’t make someone a better player. It isn’t ablett’s fault that there are other good midfielders. Say hypothetically that Federer was still a few slams ahead of Nadal and Djokovic - it would be unfair when comparing him to say, Tiger Woods, to say ‘well if you missed Federer but invested in Nadal you wouldn’t be upset. The gap between Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson is far far greater. That alone wouldn’t make Woods the better individual sportsman it would just make him more dominant.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Its all a bit silly trying to compare across positions, let alone eras.

Since 2000, the clear best mid has been GAJ (no disrespect to Pendles/Danger/Judd/Cousins/Martin etc.,), the clear best forward has been Buddy (no disrespect to Voldt/Brown/JK/Tredrea/Hawkins/Betts/Milne etc). The defenders are a much tougher bunch split and identify who has been the best.

Fairly good chance that both GAJ and Buddy will hold the position of best since 2000 until through at least 2030 given there is no one currently going that makes me think they'll take their spots. Anyone starting up now won't have the body of work by 2030 either.

Being recognized as the best player for 30+ years is about as good as you can ask for given how the game changes over time/eras.

 

[Goomba1973]

Better than Dustin Martin?

Yes and Yes

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Buddy has been a super star of his era which is the AFL era.
It is impossible to compare him to players who played almost a completely different sport called Aussie rules football. The sports are not comparable.
How can you compare Ablett snr and Buddy when they played such different sports.
All we can do these days is say he was a great in his playing days, not Buddy's fault the league change the sport yearly in his time. But it does mean he cannot be compared to other eras.

 

[James Colorado]

Not untrue but that doesn’t make someone a better player. It isn’t ablett’s fault that there are other good midfielders. Say hypothetically that Federer was still a few slams ahead of Nadal and Djokovic - it would be unfair when comparing him to say, Tiger Woods, to say ‘well if you missed Federer but invested in Nadal you wouldn’t be upset. The gap between Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson is far far greater. That alone wouldn’t make Woods the better individual sportsman it would just make him more dominant.

I like what you're saying, but the way I'm approaching the topic is that if you were picking a couple of rival teams from 2000-2021 (as an arbitrary timeframe for the exercise), and you had first pick there's two obvious Pick 1s, and then a lot of quality from then on. Neither GAJ or Buddy are a "wrong" pick, but if I had the first pick I'd go Buddy. Not just from personal bias for the first half of his career, but I feel the opportunity lost by picking GAJ first is greater than that from picking Buddy. You will still find an elite mid, maybe even an all-time one (Dusty, Judd), by letting the other guy pick GAJ, but the gap between Buddy and the next best forward is so much greater that looking at it this way you'd lose out by not picking him first.

Again, this doesn't mean either one of the two is "better" than the other; both should become legends in the HOF. It's just that considering the greater opportunity lost when comparing the value of one player to another, due entirely to playing position, I have Buddy as more valuable.

 

[PhatBoy]

I like what you're saying, but the way I'm approaching the topic is that if you were picking a couple of rival teams from 2000-2021 (as an arbitrary timeframe for the exercise), and you had first pick there's two obvious Pick 1s, and then a lot of quality from then on. Neither GAJ or Buddy are a "wrong" pick, but if I had the first pick I'd go Buddy. Not just from personal bias for the first half of his career, but I feel the opportunity lost by picking GAJ first is greater than that from picking Buddy. You will still find an elite mid, maybe even an all-time one (Dusty, Judd), by letting the other guy pick GAJ, but the gap between Buddy and the next best forward is so much greater that looking at it this way you'd lose out by not picking him first.

Again, this doesn't mean either one of the two is "better" than the other; both should become legends in the HOF. It's just that considering the greater opportunity lost when comparing the value of one player to another, due entirely to playing position, I have Buddy as more valuable.

No I agree with that too and to use another sporting analogy I’d pick Adam Gilchrist before I pick any other player in a world cricket XI because he’s so much better than the next best keeper batsman BUT it doesn’t make him a better player than, say, Jacques Kallis or Steve Smith Or Warner or Steyn or AB De Villiers who all have counterparts that are at least in the same hemisphere as they are.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

No I agree with that too and to use another sporting analogy I’d pick Adam Gilchrist before I pick any other player in a world cricket XI because he’s so much better than the next best keeper batsman BUT it doesn’t make him a better player than, say, Jacques Kallis or Steve Smith Or Warner or Steyn or AB De Villiers who all have counterparts that are at least in the same hemisphere as they are.

Get what you're saying, but take it you're assuming Sangkara can't be picked as a wicketkeeper?

 

[PhatBoy]

Get what you're saying, but take it you're assuming Sangkara can't be picked as a wicketkeeper?

Btw I wrote Warney in my previous post and it auto corrected to Warner (yuk)

Sanga’s record as keeper wasn’t as good anyway.

De Villiers actually averaged 57 with the bat during the 25-30 games in which he kept.

 

[James Colorado]

Btw I wrote Warney in my previous post and it auto corrected to Warner (yuk)

Sanga’s record as keeper wasn’t as good anyway.

De Villiers actually averaged 57 with the bat during the 25-30 games in which he kept.

I did lol at the 'Warner', didn't seem like you at all.

 

[Simche]

I always find these sorts of threads difficult to unpack as Footy is such a subjective thing.

For mine Franklin is probably the best forward of the last 20 years but in terms of the last 40 I'd have him below Piggy, Plugger, God and Duck.

I don't think Franklin's case is helped by the fact modern footy has largely done away with the set positions and old structures that guided the game from inception until the mid-late 90s so he's harder to categorise. That being said his dominance for a prolonged period was just breathtaking. He probably had more help over the journey than some of those above (Roughy being as good a foil as any and Hawthorn played to his strengths) but I do not think that diminishes his individual impact.

The harder question then comes from the 'how does he compare to his contemporaries who aren't in his position'. GAJ is about as good a midfielder as I have ever seen and even brought his circus act to a completely decrepit and hopeless club to win another Brownlow. I have him slightly ahead on that basis.

There's a lot of players on that next echelon of what I would describe as generational players, that probably go a bit below the definition of 'best of the generation'. You're looking at the likes of Judd, Riewoldt etc there, but yeah, that's how I see it.

 

[Walshawk]

Hard one.
In 2008 when people were suggesting Buddy was the best player in the game, I would say that he is not even the best (Mitchell) or even the second best (Hodge) player at Hawthorn. I have Sam Mitchell as the best Hawk since Dunstall, so hard to have Buddy as one of the all time AFL greats. At Hawthorn most would have him behind Matthews, Hudson and Dunstall at least. 20 - 30 of all time.

 

[Angak]

I haven't read all the posts on here but one point is how unique Buddy was as a footballer. We will get another player in the ilk of Ablett Jr, Judd or even Dusty. If Buddy marked the ball 70m out on the half forward flank you knew you were dead.

Is this the greatest highlight package of any player in history?
.

 

[Robroy22]

Where does he rate amongst the greats??

Well he'd certainly be the richest

 

[MasterSamurai]

I haven't read all the posts on here but one point is how unique Buddy was as a footballer. We will get another player in the ilk of Ablett Jr, Judd or even Dusty. If Buddy marked the ball 70m out on the half forward flank you knew you were dead.

Is this the greatest highlight package of any player in history?
.

Thanks for that, I knew every goal but couldn't stop watching it in awe all the same! İt's actually sad that we most likely won't see anyone remotely close to this.

 

[owen87]

İt's actually sad that we most likely won't see anyone remotely close to this.

You don't think we'll see a player who's reasonably tall, athletic and can kick goals from a long way out?

 

[Happy Mastenator]

You don't think we'll see a player who's reasonably tall, athletic and can kick goals from a long way out?

Come down to a Masters game and you'll see me resemble those remarks. If by athletic you mean hobbling around, and if you mean kicking goals from a long way out, you mean kicking the ball 25m and not kicking goals.

 

[lumpinee]

Or he would have weighed 140 kilos.

Imagine Hudson in 2021 when even touching a forward gets a free kick and any contact in a marking content gets a free kick, plus, his knee reco would have meant 1 season out of football, not 6 seasons out of football. And he wouldnt have been concussed half a dozen times a year from talentless flog defenders punching him in the head.

chose to play in tassie,so its slightly misleading that he missed 6 seasons as you say of vfl and implying he could of been anythin,because he didnt miss 6 seasons...i agree that Hudson was a champion of the time but you dont mind blowing some smoke n mirrors when it comes to his career

 

[lumpinee]

Hard one.
In 2008 when people were suggesting Buddy was the best player in the game, I would say that he is not even the best (Mitchell) or even the second best (Hodge) player at Hawthorn. I have Sam Mitchell as the best Hawk since Dunstall, so hard to have Buddy as one of the all time AFL greats. At Hawthorn most would have him behind Matthews, Hudson and Dunstall at least. 20 - 30 of all time.

lol,its an insult to even mention Sam Mitchell in the same breath as Buddy,you shoud wash your mouth out,its like saying as an example
that Trent Cotchin is above Martin or KB or even Matthew Richardson,what neutral supporter can claim they dug deep for a $20
to go and watch Mitchell play GTFOH