Player Watch #46: Ben Miller

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tora tora tora said:
I liked Miller's debut but is behind Broad, Balta & Tarrant for a spot in the 23. We often select players to suit our game plan. As you say Broad can play on smaller types. I've seen him play on Hipwood too.
Game vs Lions this year we had Garth, Grimes & Astbury vs 200cm Daniher & Fullarton. Plus McStay.
The 3rd key fwd is a huge question too. Do we play 2 rucks? I guess we'll have to watch practice games to get a sense of what selectors have come up with
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Broad has become a very good player and would be one of the first selected in the backline so whilst I see what Moppey is saying, the really big forward that play out of the goal square like the King Bros would be taken by Miller over Broad, Tarrant might get first crack which makes Miller behind both. Miller might get a go when there are multiple talls that play deep. Reckon the 5-10 game mark might be his go this year.
 
tora tora tora said:
To your way of thinking, Balta is already out of the backine...so yeah, we need Tarrant plus someone at times . If Balta is playing wing/HF, then yeah, Miller is first in line. If Balta & Stack is wing, McIntosh/Pickett out. If Balta is HF, then George out of the 23. Maybe have Balta back up ruck too, instead of Soldo.
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That is my way of thinking. I reckon Nank dominates all but the top 3 or 4 rucks, so having Soldo in is not really necessary. Also think he will need games at VFL level, hasn't played in a long time. So bring Soldo in for those games especially in the first half of the season. Balta would be the second ruck, but mainly play CHF as I think we are really poor in that position given Jack's age and Lynch mainly playing inside 50.

George to me has run his race. Has not improved and has a list of eager young half forwards snapping at his heels. Plus I think Edwards, Dusty and Cotchin and possibly RCD should be rotating through the ball and playing forward.

If we have a fit list this season, it is going to be really hard to get games. Miller will only get games if as you point out, if they move Balta. I also think Miller could play CHF as he has some natural forward attributes and was a forward ruck as a junior. He could be the swingman, but again most likely if we have injuries, which no doubt we will.

And Stack, on the wing for me, just such a great transitional player, could be something special out there. One of Mac or Pickett will have to give way.
 

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JAKLAUGHING said:
Broady has redefined a back man's role...just like Rance...just like Grimes...just like Vlasutin...
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He has the confidence and dare to intercept and attack while also able to defend , most wouldn’t know other than the astute that he’s conceded 1G in 3 GF , stiff too as Cotch gave the free away to Dangerfield
 
tora tora tora said:
Any AFL game is a step up in all levels from VFL. If we had a depth midfield playing that day then that would be making our defence be under more pressure. So credit for the backline. Miller was 3rd tall after Astbury & Grimes. Did Some good defensive play on Koschitze who's a reasonable player. Their other "VFL players" were Ceglar & MCEvoy.
Unless Balta plays out of the backline Miller is behind Broad, Tarrant too and maybe Gibcus.
Our KPF depth Chol and CJ played the Hawks game so there are a lot of new faces, and players in new positions. Balta is the biggest qn mark.
I haven't seen anyone talk up Miller as if he's the next Rance. I, and most people here are happy he's stayed on the list. He is rookie list level resigned for another year. However, tall players like Garth, Miller & Nyoun are required to play in positions short players can't. Miller is first in line depth KPP.

You seem to be on a campaign against Ben. which is being rude to him. Good to have a discussion but give me video evidence of his poor performance. Or back off the boy.
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That's utter B*LLSH!T TTT...

I haven't taken one personal insult to the kid whatsoever, merely making my personal observations of a plyer on our list.

In one breath you want a good conversation... But in reality, you only want it if my opinion agrees with yours.

I haven't said he's sh!t, I haven't said I want him delisted, I haven't said anything other than, I'm not as confident as others that he will make it, and I tried to back up my point of view with my reasons as to why I don't think he will make it.

I think my point stacks up pretty well, but it would be great for the club if I'm proven wrong, and I don't care if I am either.

But I question your logic if you think having a stronger midfield would somehow put more pressure on our defence... not sure how you think that works. A strong midfield usually moves the ball away from your backline, effectively making it easier for them... Maybe take the emotion out of your conversations, might make them a little easier
 
Grrr said:
Broad has become a very good player and would be one of the first selected in the backline so whilst I see what Moppey is saying, the really big forward that play out of the goal square like the King Bros would be taken by Miller over Broad, Tarrant might get first crack which makes Miller behind both. Miller might get a go when there are multiple talls that play deep. Reckon the 5-10 game mark might be his go this year.
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As spoken about before we have traditionally set up with four tall defenders since 2016 that is two genuine key defenders Astbury Rance and later Balta when Rance retired.
two tall general defenders in Broad and Grimes. The latter two do not play kpd although they have filled in when the need has arisen mainly because there has been no other option no one coming thru who is afl ready for the role. We tried Garthwaite but he never had the right attributes for the role or even the attributes to play third tall.

Go thru and see how they other clubs structured up each week the last few years. I've done the exercise and nearly all go with very tall backlines to counter the height of teams forwards, any team who goes into games with just one genuine sized kpd is playing with fire. Remember KPP'S are not just tall but big and powerful and most are also quick and agile.

Lets look at Brisbane as Tora has already bought them up. this structure rings true for most teams. Most of the year they played
Daniher 200/99 24 gms and a total of 132.
Hipwood 204/?? 16 games a total of 110
McStay 195/100 19 gms a total of 139

Fullarton 199/?? 12 games a total of 14. Fullarton played when injuries hit maintaing their structure when possible. Who do we bring in when injuries hit trying to maintain our structure?

Now pit Broad against any of them at 192/89 he is at a massive disadvantage. WE are talking apples and oranges here, Broad is not a kpd and is rarely asked to play the role for very obvious reasons. Miller is not behind him in the pecking order he is behind Tarrant and Balta and if Balta goes fwd or one of Tarrant Balta are injured then he must be first cab off the rank.

Can say the same sort of thing for Grimes when we have had fit players Rance Astbury Balta they have played KPD freeing Grimes up to play multiple roles.

Teams are not getting shorter or smaller we all know it is very much the opposite.

For me it is not just about 2022 we need to have a huge eye on the future especially with so many vets. we just cannot have JR retire and maybe TL over the next how many years and have no one developing.

Even for 2022 everyone would agree its last role of the dice for another flag tilt, how can anyone in their right mind go into the season hoping to win the flag with just two key forwards on the list and ageing ones at that. We are just one injury away from disaster if we do nothing about it. For me the solution for 2022 and lack of key fwds is Balta.
 
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Moppey said:
As spoken about before we have traditionally set up with four tall defenders since 2016 that is two genuine key defenders Astbury Rance and later Balta when Rance retired.
two tall general defenders in Broad and Grimes. The latter two do not play kpd although they have filled in when the need has arisen mainly because there has been no other option no one coming thru who is afl ready for the role. We tried Garthwaite but he never had the right attributes for the role or even the attributes to play third tall.

Go thru and see how they other clubs structured up each week the last few years. I've done the exercise and nearly all go with very tall backlines to counter the height of teams forwards, any team who goes into games with just one genuine sized kpd is playing with fire. Remember KPP'S are not just tall but big and powerful and most are also quick and agile.

Lets look at Brisbane as Tora has already bought them up. this structure rings true for most teams. Most of the year they played
Daniher 200/99 24 gms and a total of 132.
Hipwood 204/?? 16 games a total of 110
McStay 195/100 19 gms a total of 139

Fullarton 199/?? 12 games a total of 14. Fullarton played when injuries hit maintaing their structure when possible.

Now pit Broad against any of them at 192/89 he is at a massive disadvantage. WE are talking apples and oranges here Broad is not a kpd and is rarely asked to play the role for very obvious reasons. Miller is not behind him in the pecking order he is behind Tarrant and Balta and if Balta goes fwd or one of Tarrant Balta are injured then he must be first cab off the rank.

Can say the same sort of thing for Grimes when we have had fit players Rance Astbury Balta they have played KPD freeing Grimes up to play multiple roles.

Teams are not getting shorter or smaller we all know it is very much the opposite.

For me it is not just about 2022 we need to have a huge eye on the future especially with so many vets. we just cannot have JR retire and maybe TL over the next how many years and have no one developing.
Even for 2022 everyone would agree its last role of the dice for another flag tilt, how can anyone in their right mind go into the season hoping to win the flag with just two key forwards on the list and ageing ones at that. We are just one injury away from disaster if we do nothing about it.For me the solution for 2022 and lack of key fwds is Balta.
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I agree pretty much with this, just think that Broad does match up pretty well against players like Hipwood even though he is much taller. Hipwood almost never takes a contested mark, nearly always on the move and usually up the ground. Broad has the legs to go with all these types and and has a good spring so can get up higher than his height suggests, he is regularly spoiling balls at a good height. And he is fearless.

So whilst I agree with the height set up as you suggest, the club last year had the chance to use Astbury and Miller together but didn't do it, which was a mistake to most of us, but they chose to go with what they knew. I hope that has changed, but against smaller forward lines they might still back in Grimes and Broad.

I guess it's a mute point if Balta stays in the backline.
 
Hank Heavenly said:
That's utter B*LLSH!T TTT...

I haven't taken one personal insult to the kid whatsoever, merely making my personal observations of a plyer on our list.

In one breath you want a good conversation... But in reality, you only want it if my opinion agrees with yours.

I haven't said he's sh!t, I haven't said I want him delisted, I haven't said anything other than, I'm not as confident as others that he will make it, and I tried to back up my point of view with my reasons as to why I don't think he will make it.

I think my point stacks up pretty well, but it would be great for the club if I'm proven wrong, and I don't care if I am either.

But I question your logic if you think having a stronger midfield would somehow put more pressure on our defence... not sure how you think that works. A strong midfield usually moves the ball away from your backline, effectively making it easier for them... Maybe take the emotion out of your conversations, might make them a little easier
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kenan-thompson-eating-popcorn.gif
 
Big Ben can fill a role that we need gong forward, and quite possibly in 2022. His one game was nice and seemed to show he can play at the AFL pretty well. If we have Balta, Taz and Ben, then he's unlikely to push the other 2 out (Grimes and Broad). But any injuries or changes to structure and he is exactly what we need in 2022.

I wouldn't be shocked if we try to use Ben regularly so that we can start using Noah as more of an impact player.

Will be interesting to see.

Plus he is huge insurance for our tall stocks.
 

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tora tora tora said:
I've deleted the Teague part of the post. Not relevant to Miller thread. Sorry
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What about the part about the club getting alot wrong !

You are a hard marker TTT , 100k members , financial security , 3 flags during the most testing years ever


Going back when GC/GWS first joined the league and were given all the top draft picks totally dominating the drafts for 5-6 years taking the pick of the best kids in the land whilst we were bottom of the ladder. I specifically remember a conversation with a good friend and making the comment
" I just cant see us getting up the ladder in the next 10-15 years" or even contemplate winning a flag not to mention 3 during a period where the best talented kids were not available to Richmond.

The Club got a hell of alot right mate
 
tora tora tora said:
Nah, not personal insults but criticism of his skills & place on the list with every post. With lack of evidence... I'm happy to debate Miller. Its made we rewatch the game. Scrutinise every bit of play Miller was involved in. Not the perfect game. But not bad. He did get beaten on the lead on one occasion but that was being blocked by a hawthorn player. 198cm Lewis. A goal saving mark on the goal line, followed up with a 50m clearing kick; nice defensive work in packs, a good mark and effective kick out of defence. He looked a bit timid when free ~ didn't demand the ball from Ross, but first gamer won't do that

You criticism; just believe he's a bit "deer in the headlights" in game situations, and that's in the VFL, pretty hard to transition through that and do it at AFL level IMO.

I ask for examples in the Hawthorn game.

Your other criticism of Miller was;

That Hawthorn game was a terrible standard if we are being honest. We had a VFL midfield in there on the day and still managed to match it with the Hawks. If he didn't look half decent that day, he never will to be honest. And who was he playing on, other VFL level forwards.

What if that was against a side with a hlaf decent forward line?
That Hawthorn game was a terrible standard if we are being honest. We had a VFL midfield in there on the day and still managed to match it with the Hawks. If he didn't look half decent that day, he never will to be honest. And who was he playing on, other VFL level forwards.

I read that as we had a VFL midfield. So Hawthorn's AFL level players should have smashed us in the middle ergo, our defence must have been under enormous pressure. Which is indeed praise for Miller's effort that game. You disparage the HFC forward line as being VFL standard. I point our dual premiership McEvoy, star Koschitse and Lewis who I don't know but 198cm, 100kg, 30+ games. Vs Grimes, Miller & Astbury. In future, I suggest Miller won't be taking the main oppo KPF. But if he can contribute like that, what a waste 2021 has been. Miller is actually very injury prone and that will wreck his opportunities in future.
Well we actually did well in the centre. 13-12. Not sure about contested possessions.
Did you watch the game? A replay? Ross and RCD actually had good games.

Every player on every list can be debated. At one end; Are Lynch and Dusty worth their salary? Should the club tried harder to retain Chol & CJ & Garthwaite? At the other end of the list we re rookied Miller and Nyoun. Tarrant joins the club as one gamer Miller might not be capable. OK as depth? Will Gibcus step right past them? But with Chol, & Gath gone Miller is first in line KPP depth. If Balta goes up the ground somewhere, Miller might even play Rd 1.

I think the club gets a lot wrong; I hope they rethink who plays wing & small fwd. Resigning Parker was a mistake. Could've had tall depth player , Schlensog at the club since mid last year. Although I'm happy not to have CJ & Chol around WTF are they doing with Caddy? Parker only costs us minimum chips, like Miller so its not crucial Miller & Parker being on the list won't make or break us, getting our A grades mids playing any games at all is crucial. Dusty Dion, Sheds & Lambert.
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Hmm some stats from that game and i being bored in the off season have now watched it twice and i agree i dont think it was a very high standard game at all.

Contested possessions were pretty even 127 to us and 129 to them.
Tackle count was close as well us 51 them 47.
We lost clearances 25 to 36 so thats a fair margin given the numbers.
We had more inside fifties 53 to 47.
Over all disposals we lost soundly 339 to 423.
We were smashed in the ruck 42 to 16.

Read what you like into them but for me ball use was horrid and as usual we did not have enough winning contested ball and again lost clearances.

Miller i thought was very solid did what he had to do and the trick for him will be to get more involved.

Where is he at? Well that's hard to say given just how interrupted the last two seasons have been and how little we have seen of him.

I would have thought though, having been drafted in 2017 thus in our system since then the club would have seen enough to be confident of him being worth keeping covid or no covid.

Coming into year 5 a lovely size at 198cm, big bodied athletic and quick he is a genuine key position size. He is exactly what we are missing at 198cm there is a plethora of 198cm plus forwards going around now days not to mention the ruck/fwds that go thru there.

Imo athletically and size wise at least he is an upgrade on Astbury.
5TH year in, if the club are not prepared to play him then i have to ask why did we keep him.
There is no debating it, we really need some real depth in our key defender stocks especially DEVELOPING ready to go types.

Surely people can see the difference between big Ben 198/98 and Grimes 193/91 OR BROAD 192/89 or Gibcus 196/87.

He is coming into year five and if hes not physically ready now he never will be. Lets for now just give him a job to do on the bigger forwards and allow broad Grimes and co to do what they do best.
 
tora tora tora said:
Nah, not personal insults but criticism of his skills & place on the list with every post. With lack of evidence... I'm happy to debate Miller. Its made we rewatch the game. Scrutinise every bit of play Miller was involved in. Not the perfect game. But not bad. He did get beaten on the lead on one occasion but that was being blocked by a hawthorn player. 198cm Lewis. A goal saving mark on the goal line, followed up with a 50m clearing kick; nice defensive work in packs, a good mark and effective kick out of defence. He looked a bit timid when free ~ didn't demand the ball from Ross, but first gamer won't do that

You criticism; just believe he's a bit "deer in the headlights" in game situations, and that's in the VFL, pretty hard to transition through that and do it at AFL level IMO.

I ask for examples in the Hawthorn game.

Your other criticism of Miller was;

That Hawthorn game was a terrible standard if we are being honest. We had a VFL midfield in there on the day and still managed to match it with the Hawks. If he didn't look half decent that day, he never will to be honest. And who was he playing on, other VFL level forwards.

What if that was against a side with a hlaf decent forward line?
That Hawthorn game was a terrible standard if we are being honest. We had a VFL midfield in there on the day and still managed to match it with the Hawks. If he didn't look half decent that day, he never will to be honest. And who was he playing on, other VFL level forwards.

I read that as we had a VFL midfield. So Hawthorn's AFL level players should have smashed us in the middle ergo, our defence must have been under enormous pressure. Which is indeed praise for Miller's effort that game. You disparage the HFC forward line as being VFL standard. I point our dual premiership McEvoy, star Koschitse and Lewis who I don't know but 198cm, 100kg, 30+ games. Vs Grimes, Miller & Astbury. In future, I suggest Miller won't be taking the main oppo KPF. But if he can contribute like that, what a waste 2021 has been. Miller is actually very injury prone and that will wreck his opportunities in future.
Well we actually did well in the centre. 13-12. Not sure about contested possessions.
Did you watch the game? A replay? Ross and RCD actually had good games.

Every player on every list can be debated. At one end; Are Lynch and Dusty worth their salary? Should the club tried harder to retain Chol & CJ & Garthwaite? At the other end of the list we re rookied Miller and Nyoun. Tarrant joins the club as one gamer Miller might not be capable. OK as depth? Will Gibcus step right past them? But with Chol, & Gath gone Miller is first in line KPP depth. If Balta goes up the ground somewhere, Miller might even play Rd 1.

I think the club gets a lot wrong; I hope they rethink who plays wing & small fwd. Resigning Parker was a mistake. Could've had tall depth player , Schlensog at the club since mid last year. Although I'm happy not to have CJ & Chol around WTF are they doing with Caddy? Parker only costs us minimum chips, like Miller so its not crucial Miller & Parker being on the list won't make or break us, getting our A grades mids playing any games at all is crucial. Dusty Dion, Sheds & Lambert.
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We played a great 4q , remarkable that we drew the game 3G down with 2min left . We played with a decent intensity for that 15min burst ....
 
tora tora tora said:
You wanna pull out of all that...that the club gets it wrong. Fine but I don't want it in the Miller thread
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There are things you let go thru to the keeper and then ones that don't.
Sadly for you that comment couldn't go through.
 
I am a bit of fan of Ben Miller still - the boy from Kalgoorlie - Drafted Pick 63 in the 2017 draft he is now a good sized lad at 198cm. Around the 4 seasons so far (not sure why anyone is saying 5). Played in the 2019 VFL Grand Final for a Premiership, them missed 2020 (as did everyone not AFL) though was an emergency a few times in the Hubbed season, so was close.

2021 was also a tricky year for fringe / VFL players and these are his stats for what he played.

1641080524889.png

I think it is fair to say he was building some continuity after a few unique seasons.
 
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Phar Ace said:
I am a bit of fan of Ben Miller still - the boy from Kalgoorlie - Drafted Pick 63 in the 2017 draft he is now a good sized lad at 198cm. Around the 4 seasons so far (not sure why anyone is saying 5). Played in the 2019 VFL Grand Final for a Premiership, them missed 2020 (as did everyone not AFL) though was an emergency a few times in the Hubbed season, so was close.

2021 was also a tricky year for fringe / VFL players and these are his stats for what he played.

View attachment 1304502

I think it is fair to say he was building some continuity after a few unique seasons.
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Showed enough in his debut that if/when an opportunity opens in defence he is worth giving a go to.

If one of Balta or Tarrant is unavailable early season, Miller should get first crack at replacing them.
 
Phar Ace said:
I am a bit of fan of Ben Miller still - the boy from Kalgoorlie - Drafted Pick 63 in the 2017 draft he is now a good sized lad at 198cm. Around the 4 seasons so far (not sure why anyone is saying 5). Played in the 2019 VFL Grand Final for a Premiership, them missed 2020 (as did everyone not AFL) though was an emergency a few times in the Hubbed season, so was close.

2021 was also a tricky year for fringe / VFL players and these are his stats for what he played.

View attachment 1304502

I think it is fair to say he was building some continuity after a few unique seasons.
Click to expand...
Strange 'Position'. Miller may have had a run in the ruck, but other than that played back in every game.
 
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