The Ashes, Third Test Australia v England @ The MCG 26-30 December

[HTPunter]

The big difference between them and everyone else at the moment - in my opinion - is that they will go into a tour with a specific strategy for batting. When they went to England, they specifically put away their cut shots, instead leaving the ball or playing the square drive if the ball was full enough; this meant that the bowlers gave them plenty of what they wanted (the ball on their pads, as they adjusted to not getting wickets in the cordon) and forced England to roll out some fast bouncy decks to try and win. They came here with the specific intent to have our bowlers bowl lots of overs; it worked when Pujara did it by himself, and it worked their next tour, allowing Pant/Jadeja/Ashwin/Sundar to make hay against an exhausted attack.

We go to England or India: 'It's just how they play, can't be expected to win away against pitches like that!' or 'Got to play your natural game' and England are no better.

Yep. Warner averaged only 9.5 or so didn't he in the last Ashes in England? Smashes it in a T20 WC and Aus conditions and I fully expect no one will consider that Warner in swinging conditions at age 36 will be a walking wicket in England in 2023, and it'll be encouraged as long as "he plays his natural game".

 

[western royboy]

We always seem to have south africa's measure over there while its in reverse when they come to Australia. They perform better against us here then at home.

Other then our self inflicted implosion in 2018 our recent record there is we won in 2006,2009,2014 and drew in 2011.

2009 and 2011 we certainly weren't favourites either i think even 2014 was considered a 50/50 bet.

Test Cricket, the standard of and the nations that play it is in significant decline. The financial viability of each series hangs on pay tv rights. Only be 3 Major nations within 10 years, Aus / Eng / Ind

 

[Gethelred]

Yep. Warner averaged only 9.5 or so didn't he in the last Ashes in England? Smashes it in a T20 WC and Aus conditions and I fully expect no one will consider that Warner in swinging conditions at age 36 will be a walking wicket in England in 2023, and it'll be encouraged as long as "he plays his natural game".

It's a bit funny, because Warner's improved markedly as an opener since he started. I really wonder a bit how much of his last tour of England is down to having just played a WC there on exactly those decks. Broad also was in a rare vein of form, too.

With us, we don't go in with a plan as a team. Individual players might adopt a tactic, but as a team we try to play our game. The strategy is maintained. I'd argue that our best era, the WI dominance and SA's recent dominance we all played 'our way', relying on Plan A to triumph anywhere. India's dominance is different; they go into each series wary of their opposition, and try to play the way which will work best in those conditions.

... which is interesting, because it indicates that - rather acutely - they know their batting is not really all that strong at the moment, and they need to go in with these plans to survive and prosper. It's a curious abnegation of pride, despite pride in oneself being a hallmark of Kohli.

 

[James Colorado]

It's a bit funny, because Warner's improved markedly as an opener since he started. I really wonder a bit how much of his last tour of England is down to having just played a WC there on exactly those decks. Broad also was in a rare vein of form, too.

With us, we don't go in with a plan as a team. Individual players might adopt a tactic, but as a team we try to play our game. The strategy is maintained. I'd argue that our best era, the WI dominance and SA's recent dominance we all played 'our way', relying on Plan A to triumph anywhere. India's dominance is different; they go into each series wary of their opposition, and try to play the way which will work best in those conditions.

... which is interesting, because it indicates that - rather acutely - they know their batting is not really all that strong at the moment, and they need to go in with these plans to survive and prosper. It's a curious abnegation of pride, despite pride in oneself being a hallmark of Kohli.

Indian cricket seems, at least on my reading of the history, to really be a tale of individual talent for decades. Gavaskar, Dev, et al got to where they did because they were guns. Even into the era of Tendulkar, Kumble, Dravid it was still talent rather than system, which is possible when there are hundreds of millions to choose from. Lately, there has been a pronounced cultural shift and the system all these talented cricketers go through is now thoroughly professional. Someone like Kohli would succeed in any era, but he's now coming through a domestic competition that is no longer the domain of cashed up princes and the overly talented poor, but a proper system with identified KPIs for success and how to accomplish them, with this now becoming a hallmark of the national side and its success.

 

[Gethelred]

Indian cricket seems, at least on my reading of the history, to really be a tale of individual talent for decades. Gavaskar, Dev, et al got to where they did because they were guns. Even into the era of Tendulkar, Kumble, Dravid it was still talent rather than system, which is possible when there are hundreds of millions to choose from. Lately, there has been a pronounced cultural shift and the system all these talented cricketers go through is now thoroughly professional. Someone like Kohli would succeed in any era, but he's now coming through a domestic competition that is no longer the domain of cashed up princes and the overly talented poor, but a proper system with identified KPIs for success and how to accomplish them, with this now becoming a hallmark of the national side and its success.

I'd argue that Kohli at least has a thorough respect for work ethic where I don't know that those who came before him did to the same extent.

Kohli insisted that his team could field. He insisted on fitness standards. He insisted on playing quicks, and while the development of fast bowlers and bowling was happening before him if he doesn't champion it it doesn't happen.

I agree with your post, but I think that Kohli has really been transformative for them. An element of it is that he's taken lessons where they're there to be had; how to subsume the idea that being a gun means you cannot play smart.

 

[swingdog]

Kohli has also been a strong voice for test cricket, which gives him extra credit in my eyes.

 

[philreich]

Just been trying to envisage England's team meeting to pick a team for the 4th Test.

Openers - what do we think?

Maybe Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broad? They couldn't be worse than Hameed and Crawley.

OK don't mind it. What about number 3?

Well given the fact that Joe will probably be in the middle by the 4th over anyway, perhaps we could try Woakes at first drop. Or perhaps we could promote Sundries to 3, given the fact that he was our 3rd best batsman last year.

Obviously Joe comes in at 4. Maybe we could clone him, so he can also come in at 5.

Great. So Stokes drops to 6. Can we get Alan Knott to come out of retirement for 2 games? He might be nearly 76, but I'm sure he still moves his feet behind the stumps better than Jos Buttler.

Good, so Malan drops to 8. Hopefully by the time he comes to the crease, the ball will be 20 overs old, and he can stay in the middle for a bit longer.

Nice thinking. Burns at 9 - the ball should be 23 overs old by now, giving him more of a chance to reach double figures.

Then we can decide between Robinson and Leach for 10 and 11, depending on who can get the pads on first.

Finally the drinks waiter. Give the job to anyone except Buttler - he'll probably drop those as well.

 

[freo_leo29]

He and Edwards both started so well, the baggies were already in the brown paper bags.

Both have galloped backwards for reasons that mystify me. Still the young fella is till just 22 so has plenty of time.

Personally I think Sangha and Fraser-McGurk should not play the Babel if they want their first class careers to develop. To their undying credit both Puck and Green said no to the Babel.

Green played for the Scorchers

He has been in the Aussie test team the last 2 summers and that's why he hasn't played for the Scorchers in 2 years

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Just been trying to envisage England's team meeting to pick a team for the 4th Test.

Openers - what do we think?

Maybe Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broad? They couldn't be worse than Hameed and Crawley.

OK don't mind it. What about number 3?

Well given the fact that Joe will probably be in the middle by the 4th over anyway, perhaps we could try Woakes at first drop. Or perhaps we could promote Sundries to 3, given the fact that he was our 3rd best batsman last year.

Obviously Joe comes in at 4. Maybe we could clone him, so he can also come in at 5.

Great. So Stokes drops to 6. Can we get Alan Knott to come out of retirement for 2 games? He might be nearly 76, but I'm sure he still moves his feet behind the stumps better than Jos Buttler.

Good, so Malan drops to 8. Hopefully by the time he comes to the crease, the ball will be 20 overs old, and he can stay in the middle for a bit longer.

Nice thinking. Burns at 9 - the ball should be 23 overs old by now, giving him more of a chance to reach double figures.

Then we can decide between Robinson and Leach for 10 and 11, depending on who can get the pads on first.

Finally the drinks waiter. Give the job to anyone except Buttler - he'll probably drop those as well.

More likely.

is getting covid worse than embarrassing ourselves again? Maybe we should all go to some superspreader events and we can end the whole series.

 

[Rich]

I'd argue that Kohli at least has a thorough respect for work ethic where I don't know that those who came before him did to the same extent.

Kohli insisted that his team could field. He insisted on fitness standards. He insisted on playing quicks, and while the development of fast bowlers and bowling was happening before him if he doesn't champion it it doesn't happen.

I agree with your post, but I think that Kohli has really been transformative for them. An element of it is that he's taken lessons where they're there to be had; how to subsume the idea that being a gun means you cannot play smart.

I really like Kohli and agree with all of this, but also think the IPL has helped drag Indian cricket along in regards to fielding and general professionalism about the game.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Green played for the Scorchers

He has been in the Aussie test team the last 2 summers and that's why he hasn't played for the Scorchers in 2 years

Have read before he gave up the Scrunchies ahead of Test selection last summer. You should feel pleased a the Wozzies might finally have produced a decent Test player.

 

[footyfan1978]

He and Edwards both started so well, the baggies were already in the brown paper bags.

Both have galloped backwards for reasons that mystify me. Still the young fella is till just 22 so has plenty of time.

Personally I think Sangha and Fraser-McGurk should not play the Babel if they want their first class careers to develop. To their undying credit both Puck and Green said no to the Babel.

Yeah, Sangha and Edwards been underwhelming to this point in Shield cricket. I expected more when first saw their raw talent.
Still plenty of time to reach their potential IF they got more to give but maybe being elite in under age cricket is the height of their development.
Renshaw also someone a bit older than not come on as a Test opener.
Aussie cricket is not in great shape for batting talent until we start to develop a wider array of guys that perform well, regularly and dominate at Shield level.
We lived through a period in 90's and early 2000's where the talent pool for batting was very strong. But right now apart from Pucoski and Green I am struggling to see young guys I feel I can rely on for future and with Pucoski health issues he no certainty to be there.

Thankfully for the right now and next year or two it seems Travis Head is going to be an answer to middle order but openers is a real worry once Warner retires and if Pucoski never is there often.
Where the hell are you Matt Renshaw when we crying out for you?

 

[footyfan1978]

The BBL is too long IMHO. Cut it back from 14 games per team to around 8-10, giving Shield players more of a chance to impress the national selectors.

Big Bash 8 games each franchise is probably where it should be and played a period like right now when guys out of Test side calculations can run with it for a few weeks. I never going to get into it as T20 cricket in general is not really meaningful format for me but for those into it, the moans I've browsed suggests the concerns of having too long a comp is seemingly coming home too roost.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

- this is ”Test” cricket- the highest form, where each Test Cap awarded has a number and is revered you don’t just hand them out wily Molly to blokes averaging 24 in shield

Quiney, maddinson, white, Hastings, Finch all say hello.

 

[Mego Red]

People who still have this attitude about India are going to be really really disappointed over the next decade.

Easily the best test team in the world.

They have 1.4 billion people, and a growing middle class wealth supporting their most popular sport.

Frankly, they shouldn't EVER lose a series. From a population perspective, it's the equivalent of us playing Lichtenstein.

 

[to1994]

Kohli has also been a strong voice for test cricket, which gives him extra credit in my eyes.

Definitely, Kohli is someone who gives the impression he's a twat on the field but when he actually speaks off it he's very gracious, intelligent and clearly cares about the game. Ponting is probably in the same mould.

The game is definitely in some trouble at the moment. There's always been that feeling that more players will start to opt for White Ball only contracts and with the Covid bubbles still persisting we're likely going to see more guys like Quinton DK retiring early and players like Shakib picking and choosing.

 

[PhatBoy]

They have 1.4 billion people, and a growing middle class wealth supporting their most popular sport.

Frankly, they shouldn't EVER lose a series. From a population perspective, it's the equivalent of us playing Lichtenstein.

They can’t pick 1.4 billion people though.

Excepting Bradman cricket history has taught us that there is more or less a limit on how good a cricketer can be. All it takes is to find 11 that are close to that ceiling and you can win.

Barbados’ first class team at various stages of its existence could have probably beaten most teams on the planet. The place is the size of Geelong and has a comparable population.

 

[freo_leo29]

Have read before he gave up the Scrunchies ahead of Test selection last summer. You should feel pleased a the Wozzies might finally have produced a decent Test player.

We produced Richardson 3 years ago, unless you dont rate him?

 

[Tugga27]

They can’t pick 1.4 billion people though.

Excepting Bradman cricket history has taught us that there is more or less a limit on how good a cricketer can be. All it takes is to find 11 that are close to that ceiling and you can win.

Barbados’ first class team at various stages of its existence could have probably beaten most teams on the planet. The place is the size of Geelong and has a comparable population.

Greg Chappell reckons India should be able to produce 4 quality test sides with their population.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

We produced Richardson 3 years ago, unless you dont rate him?

3 games in three years do not amount to a career.

 

[freo_leo29]

3 games in three years do not amount to a career.

you said produced? we produced Richo and he has many years ahead of him


It is interesting though now I'm seeing why you don't like Marsh, seems you are very anti-WA, bit weird but hey whatever floats ya boat

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

you said produced? we produced Richo and he has many years ahead of him


It is interesting though now I'm seeing why you don't like Marsh, seems you are very anti-WA, bit weird but hey whatever floats ya boat

Far from the truth.

Having the Marsh kiddies foisted on the test team has undermined WA credibility.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

It is interesting though now I'm seeing why you don't like Marsh, seems you are very anti-WA, bit weird but hey whatever floats ya boat

On reflection, this may rate as one of the most parochial comments I have read on BF. I believe the Carlton and Adelaide Boards have bestowed you with honorary lifetime membership. Congratulations!

Meanwhile after 32 ill deserved Tests, Marsh Minor offers a bowling average at 38 and a prodigious average of 25 with the bat. Time and time again he has proven himself a dud and let the country down.

To point (and sob) at these numbers is not being anti-WA, ya wee little nonsense flogger.

 

[freo_leo29]

Have read before he gave up the Scrunchies ahead of Test selection last summer. You should feel pleased a the Wozzies might finally have produced a decent Test player.

On reflection, this may rate as one of the most parochial comments I have read on BF. I believe the Carlton and Adelaide Boards have bestowed you with honorary lifetime membership. Congratulations!

Meanwhile after 32 ill deserved Tests, Marsh Minor offers a bowling average at 38 and a prodigious average of 25 with the bat. Time and time again he has proven himself a dud and let the country down.

To point (and sob) at these numbers is not being anti-WA, ya wee little nonsense flogger.

Maybe not post anti-WA nonsense if you don't want to appear as anti-WA then

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Maybe not post anti-WA nonsense if you don't want to appear as anti-WA then

I do not.

What I suggest you do is look at Marsh Minor's performances at Test level and explain why a big black texta should not run across his name.